Pedals For Chords?

[Ruro]

Hi People, second thread in one day, very unsual for me, but I daren't know where else to put it :/ I will be talking about the Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.4...

I hit a very stupid problem, besides running out of Octaves on my Keyboard (using a crazy function to "shift" the keys right an octave), it seems I need pedals for the one of the last chords!? I asked not long ago "how do you play this piece", which had 25 notes in a chord, apparently you use the pedals to prolong each set of notes?

I mean, I dunno if I need that, or my hand/finger positions aren't optimal? In the last Two measures, the first chord is duable by barely managing a stretch on my 5th finger for a 'D' on the right hand.
But the second, all the notes are possible but the highest one... D# if I remember right :/ Am I right in requiring pedals? If so do you chop the amount of notes in half, instead of playing a single note over the other ones which were "pedalled"?
As for the third chord that finalizes the piece... I didn't try working that out ^_^;; As soon as I hit this problem, I thought "For god sake" and laughed :/ And then came here Because I know you people are geniouses!

http://www.geocities.com/ninja_kirb/chords.png - Incase you need to see the notes, and excuse the numbers, I was practising my counting skills?

Sorry to bung another question on you! *cries* Trust me, I do feel guilty :/ And yeah, I'm getting a teacher... soon!

Thankyou for your time!

And btw, instead of buying pedals for my keyboard, should I just save up and get an Upright Piano? Which Kinda relates to my recent thread of "Expenses"... >_< I plan on doing classical music all the way!

[xvimbi]

I am not sure if you are not confusing a few issues here. First off, you don't just need pedal for one of the chords, you need pedal throughout the piece. This piece can't be played without pedal. The pedal is not used to build up large sounds consisting of several sequential notes (if I understand you correctly), but simply to give the piece a more pleasant sound.

What concerns the big chords, if they hurt your hands, then one option is simply to leave out a note. You will probably find that leaving out one of the inner voices will be quite doable, although the total span has not changed.

[Ruro]

Can't be played without a pedal? Crikey matey, I have obviously missed something :/

I don't have a piano, I have a keyboard, which appears to be further frustrating because now I seem to require one. Make it sound more pleasant? *Cries* Perhaps I should give up now, my dream is slowly cracking.... it's like that careers advisor woman I just saw 30 minutes ago knew something I didn't all along, and now I know... ¬_¬

Besides walking in hoping for computing professions and walking out with a McDonalds application, I still have hope! Love to know how McDonalds got brought into this... I sure ain't applying there!

Perhaps I'll return when I finally have gained a Piano, thanks for the help :/

Edit: *sighs* Darn... it's really getting me down now, I had this planned out, it was so simple... then that careers advisor just decides to destroy my dream, like the snap of a twig :/ I didn't wanna be a virtuoso, I didn't want to play with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, just wanted to become a teacher.... I guess I was kidding myself :/ Sorry to bother you all

[xvimbi]

Can't be played without a pedal? Crikey matey, I have obviously missed something :/

Do you have a recording of that piece? If not, check out http://www.rogev.com/sokolov/music_en.html. At the bottom, you'll find a link to an mp3 (Largo). Listen and compare to how it sounds when you play it. Although Grigory Sokolov is really "milking" the piece, i.e. he is applying ample amounts of rubato, I find it an excellent rendition.

I don't have a piano, I have a keyboard, which appears to be further frustrating because now I seem to require one. Make it sound more pleasant? *Cries* Perhaps I should give up now, my dream is slowly cracking.... it's like that careers advisor woman I just saw 30 minutes ago knew something I didn't all along, and now I know... ¬_¬

Edit: *sighs* Darn... it's really getting me down now, I had this planned out, it was so simple... then that careers advisor just decides to destroy my dream, like the snap of a twig :/ I didn't wanna be a virtuoso, I didn't want to play with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, just wanted to become a teacher.... I guess I was kidding myself :/ Sorry to bother you all

The lack of an instrument should not stifle your ambitions. Instruments can be acquired easily, ambitions can't. You'll find that with a better instrument will come even more enthusiasm. Keep on going!

BTW, with respect to our previous conversation, Prelude No. 4 was played at Chopin's funeral

[Ruro]

Don't think I'm crazily hovering over this thread, I'm talking on MSN, and I have nothing better to do then read this forum. (And the "I can play... as EARLY as..." thread in the repertoire section is an absolute laugh! Especially Siberian Husky's post )

Wow, so, excuse my wording, but interpretation of a piece can mean utterly destroy the beat? *wipes forehead* Means I won't be busting my behind to get them Chords one after another so quickly... Thankyou for that link

I decided I shouldn't let that career advisor trample over my dreams, infact I plan on cancelling the appointment where she will advise me most likely "not to play the piano" and "do your friggin computer course instead".

And christ, really? His Funeral? ^_^;; My... I don't mind telling you, that my Relative is sort of doing better now... *we have hope!* But it seems he will be hanging in for a while to come yet...

Thankyou for your continuing support Xvimbi

*Goes in search of the "the use of a pedal" and what "Rubato" means* ^_^

[xvimbi]

Wow, so, excuse my wording, but interpretation of a piece can mean utterly destroy the beat? *wipes forehead* Means I won't be busting my behind to get them Chords one after another so quickly... Thankyou for that link

Sort of. Don't make it a habit, though. First learn a piece exactly according to the correct rhythm. Once you have demonstrated you can play the piece correctly, then you can start to hack it all up, i.e. "interpret" it .

And christ, really? His Funeral? ^_^;; My... I don't mind telling you, that my Relative is sort of doing better now... *we have hope!* But it seems he will be hanging in for a while to come yet...

That's good to hear The piece can also be played at other occasions, of course.

[Ruro]

I see - Don't make a habit *adds to mental note list*

I wasn't planning on replying, cause the thread has to die sometime! But this is related to this piece, and has finaly drove me nuts enough to post about it. In my past pieces; making it HT was always relatively forthcoming, and didn't take me long to work it out.

This time, the second part of this Prelude... my brain just isn't having it :/ I think it might be the bizare "1.5" Notes that are connected to the... Semi-Quaver? I think this combined with the chord jump just isn't working for me... is this just down to practise, or is there any particular trick to it?

And another question about it while I'm at it, there are 3 sets of quavers joined up, that twice are "selected" and have a small "3" above them. From what I can tell, you jam these 3 effectively into 2 quaver beats (or a single regular beat I guess)? But I gotta say, that If I'm right, the second set, where it's: E, down to E, and up to A... sounds wrong :/

Thanks again your your time Pianist's ^_^

*And I managed to work out how to play the entire chords at the end ^_^ They sound super! They must be delicious to hear on a real Piano

[xvimbi]

This time, the second part of this Prelude... my brain just isn't having it :/ I think it might be the bizare "1.5" Notes that are connected to the... Semi-Quaver? I think this combined with the chord jump just isn't working for me... is this just down to practise, or is there any particular trick to it?

And another question about it while I'm at it, there are 3 sets of quavers joined up, that twice are "selected" and have a small "3" above them. From what I can tell, you jam these 3 effectively into 2 quaver beats (or a single regular beat I guess)? But I gotta say, that If I'm right, the second set, where it's: E, down to E, and up to A... sounds wrong :/

OK, there are actually quite a few "tricky" spots in this piece if you haven't had any prior experience with these things and no teacher to ask. I'll start with a few that come to mind right away. You can tell me what else there is, but please use measure numbers and note names. I have a hard time figuring out what exactly you are referring to.

1. As trivial as it sounds, the first three notes are quite difficult to play rhythmically correctly. Make sure you are counting a full measure in your head before you start, just to get the feel for the tempo.
2. Since you don't have a pedal, I won't say anything else about it than I have already said.
3. Measure 11: play the grace note on the beat, and the A in between the two chords in the left hand
4. Measure 12 (and also meeasure 18): the three notes that have a bracket with the number "3" in the middle form a so-called "triplet". These three notes take up the space of one beat, i.e. they must be played within one beat. Generally, one can have any kind of "tuplet", 5, 7, ..., 19...
5. Have you figured out the turn in measure 16? It's quite tricky to play this section rhythmically correctly. This section all the way to the end of measure 18 is supposed to be played "stretto". Start your Google engine
6. the "bizare "1.5" Notes that are connected to the... Semi-Quaver?" (e.g. measure 16) are dotted eigth notes. The sixteenth note (semi-quaver) is to be played in between the second and the third chord in that measure.
7. Measure 18 is the trickiest in terms of rhythm. First, figure out exactly what the rhythm is (3 against 2), then practice it slowly away from the piano (e.g. by clapping) to get the hang of it, then play it.
8. Measure 21 to the end is supposed to be played smorzando (Google)
9. Measure 23: Make sure your audience doesn't think the piece is over when you "play" the rest with the fermata.
10. If the chords in the last two measures are too big, you can drop the bottom notes. It won't be terrible, and you won't ruin your hands. But if you can play them, great!

Let me know if that helps at all.

[avril 14th]

you need pedal throughout the piece.

This is excellent news.  I've been beating myself up trying to smoothly connect chords for a while now.  There are no Ped. markings in my copy, so i was a bit confused.

How exactly does one know when pedal is permissable/necessary/forbidden?

[xvimbi]

This is excellent news.  I've been beating myself up trying to smoothly connect chords for a while now.  There are no Ped. markings in my copy, so i was a bit confused.

How exactly does one know when pedal is permissable/necessary/forbidden?

Well, that's a question that could fill entire volumes. A good rule of thumb is to change pedal whenever the harmony changes. However, there are exceptions (of course). Some subsequent harmonies are quite compatible, so one can sometimes hold the pedal down throughout. In other cases, the build-up of sound may become too much, so that it will be necessary to re-pedal even when the harmony does not change.

With respect to this piece, try pedalling whenever there is a chord in the left hand. I don't have the score in front of me right now, but I believe there are only a couple of spots where one does not pedal (second half, ff section comes to mind, and even there one can use some pedal). Listen to the recording that I posted the link for and see if you can detect where Sokolov is pedaling (or easier, where he is NOT pedaling).

It is quite common that composers leave out pedal marks. It does not mean that one should not use pedal (unless it's explicitely stated), but one should use the pedal to one's own discretion. Some editors put explicit pedal markings in their version, so one can find versions of this piece that do have them.

More when I get home tonight (probably quite late )

[Ruro]

I've been beating myself up trying to smoothly connect chords for a while now

Wah, thank god I'm not the only one on this frappin piece >_< Doing better then I am I hope!

1. As trivial as it sounds, the first three notes are quite difficult to play rhythmically correctly. Make sure you are counting a full measure in your head before you start, just to get the feel for the tempo.

You mean at the start of measure 16? HS I can get that just fine... but once I bunged it with the chords, then it got perculiar, you explained that bit in "No.6" on your list I believe.

2. Since you don't have a pedal, I won't say anything else about it than I have already said.

:O I can actually buy a pedal for my keyboard... perhaps an investment worth... investing in...

3. Measure 11: play the grace note on the beat, and the A in between the two chords in the left hand

Oh ya, I got that one

4. Measure 12 (and also meeasure 18): the three notes that have a bracket with the number "3" in the middle form a so-called "triplet". These three notes take up the space of one beat, i.e. they must be played within one beat. Generally, one can have any kind of "tuplet", 5, 7, ..., 19...

19!? As in 19 notes rolled into one? It could be a super fast crescendo then?

5. Have you figured out the turn in measure 16? It's quite tricky to play this section rhythmically correctly. This section all the way to the end of measure 18 is supposed to be played "stretto".

I can play it my way, probably not Stretto, I shall investigaate as one suggested

7. Measure 18 is the trickiest in terms of rhythm. First, figure out exactly what the rhythm is (3 against 2), then practice it slowly away from the piano (e.g. by clapping) to get the hang of it, then play it.

3 against 2? Dayum!? I don't see that time signature written anywhere! Unless that's just the tuplet being jammed into the accompanied 2 chords, then I guess it makes sense I will indeed have to practise that, don't think I come across it before...

8. Measure 21 to the end is supposed to be played smorzando (Google)

It's on the list of things to google >_<

9. Measure 23: Make sure your audience doesn't think the piece is over when you "play" the rest with the fermata.

Fermata is on the list of things to google >_< I have a feeling it's the rest you prolong at your discretion.

10. If the chords in the last two measures are too big, you can drop the bottom notes. It won't be terrible, and you won't ruin your hands. But if you can play them, great!

I admit it is a hell of a stretch for the 5th finger on the right hand, but for playing 3 chords, it can't be apocalyptic for it >_<

You have been VERY helpful! I Applaud you for further aiding me! *Claps* I Owe you one somehow, if you have a favourite charity fund I'll donate to it And I will enjoy playing this piece further, now I should be able to get it right!
  Thanks again Xvimbi ^_^

There are no Ped. markings in my copy

"What do pedal markings look like?" is added to my google list ^_^

[xvimbi]

You mean at the start of measure 16? HS I can get that just fine... but once I bunged it with the chords, then it got perculiar, you explained that bit in "No.6" on your list I believe.

No, I actually meant the very first three notes in the piece in the right hand

3 against 2? Dayum!? I don't see that time signature written anywhere! Unless that's just the tuplet being jammed into the accompanied 2 chords, then I guess it makes sense I will indeed have to practise that, don't think I come across it before...

Yes it means you play 3 notes in one hand while playing two notes within the same time in the other hand (doesn't have anything to do with the meter of a piece)

Fermata is on the list of things to google >_< I have a feeling it's the rest you prolong at your discretion.

Correct

"What do pedal markings look like?" is added to my google list ^_^

In older texts, they are marked with "Ped" in curly writing when the pedal goes down, and with "*" when it comes up again. The more modern and much better notation is "|______^_____|", where the "_" means the pedal is down, and the "^" means re-pedaling (quickly releasing the pedal and immediately depressing it again). There are a couple more types of pedal markings, but those are the most common ones.

[xvimbi]

More when I get home tonight (probably quite late )

OK, back to pedaling in this piece.
The easy way out (for me, that is) would be to tell you to buy a good edition that has pedal markings in it

Oh, well.

Peadling is actually quite straighforward: one pedals on every chord change in the left hand and on every melody note in the right hand. So, the pedal goes down on the B in measure 2, re-pedal on the C, re-pedal on the B, re-pedal on the (F#-A-Eb) chord, etc.
There are a couple of exceptions. For the figures consisting of a dotted eigth note followed by a sixteenth note (e.g. measure 7), one pedals only on the first note. In measure 9, the pedal is depressed throughout the figure in the right hand. In measure 12, the rests are observed, i.e. release the pedal as soon as you come to the quarter rest. Measure 16 is a bit more complicated. Try re-pedaling in the middle of the turn. The issue here is that a turn is composed of seconds. Seconds are dissonant. Unless one explicitely wants a dissonant sound, the notes should be separated. So, pedal at your discretion, i.e. pedal when the sound builds up too much. In measure 17, the pedal is released at the end of the first beat; start pedaling again when you come to the triplet in the following measure. In essence, try different things until you get the sound that you want.

A couple more tips:

This is a great piece to demonstrate the effect of breathing. The central figures (the descending seconds across two measures) represent sighs. So, when you come to the quarter note at the end of measure 2, breath in quite strongly, then breath out with the following dotted half note, and similar for the other identical occurrences. One can even hear this kind of breathing in Sokolov's recording. It is very helpful for getting into the spirit of the piece. The figure in measures 7/8 is an extended sigh. The figure in measure 9 is a sob! At it out with your most dramatic voice! It's fun and it will improve your interpretation of the piece. In measure 12, imagine you are lamenting. In measure 16, things are getting really desparate. Here, anger mixes with despair, culminating in those powerful blows in measure 17. After that, it's just resignation. There is hardly any energy in the final chords. Curtains.

With respect to the chord sequence, it helps for memorizing it if you look at which notes change from one chord to the next. You will find some nice patterns that are much easier to remember than the whole sequence note by note.

Well, those are just some rough guidelines. I am sure, other people will have different opinions, but that is half the fun.

I have the feeling that I wrote some of this stuff already in another thread, but can't remember where.

Have fun!

[nightmarecinema]

This is the first classical piece I learned, about a year ago, and the difficult parts are of course, still difficult for me. However, I don't know about your copy, but mine says "Very legato", and I don't think it has pedal markings. But very legato, to me, means LOTS OF PEDAL. At least, in the right places. And apparently that was right, because my teacher said I played it very legato. For the most part, you just take it slow and work through it, but I would work on the 3 against 2 thing away from the piano.