Scriabin Sonata #10, Op. 70

[thracozaag]

Often nicknamed the "trill" sonata for obvious reasons; from a concert a couple months ago in Florida.

koji

[gaer]

Often nicknamed the "trill" sonata for obvious reasons; from a concert a couple months ago in Florida.

koji

Koji, this has always been one of my three or four favorite Scriabin compositions. This may be the most impressive thing I've heard from you so far, and that's saying a lot. I want to listen again, several times, with my score, because you just never realize how difficult the rhythms are in these sonatas until you study them. I love the contrast. Your use of the soft pedal is perfect for me. Just the right balance of sustain pedal and lack of it, for me, clean where it should be and blended in all the right places.

I've played the 5th and the 9th, never this one, and I've always wanted to. The sad part is that I suspect you will get less notice for this than other things, since I fear very few people know the music in the first place, and I truly believe this is a composition you have to either play or listen to many times to begin to understand. I wish I had been there to here this. I wonder if a Floridian audience, anywhere, would know what to make of the final Scriabin sonata!

EDIT: My God, almost no applause. It was as I feared—the audience didn't know what to make of it, and of course they had no idea when you were through until you indicated it.

Gary

[crazy for ivan moravec]

count me in... i honestly don't know this piece. i only know the 2nd, 4th and 5th sonatas. i can't say anything because of my lack of knowledge, but CONGRATULATIONS! because you made me understand the basics of the piece by listening to your playing (without score).

 

[thracozaag]

  You think that's bad--you should have heard (or rather NOT heard) the stupefying silence after a performance once I did of the 8th sonata, haha.  If you've done #5 and #9, you should definitely give #10 a shot; it's more difficult than #9, but I'm sure you could handle it (and it's such an amazing piece).  #8's always been my favorite, but just doesn't go over well with audiences--at least with #7 there are some pretty heinously loud parts to wake up the audience with, heh.

koji

[paris]

koji+russian music...wow!

so many colors in your music!

*expecting recording of debussy sonata*

[shasta]

I'm about to undertake Scriabin's 3rd sonata - - - you've definitely inspired me with your recording!  Thanks for posting!

[I Love Xenakis]

If this is the recording you showed me before then yeah, this is the best performance i've ever heard of it.



Oh and what cellist will your Debussy Sonata be with?

[jlh]

OK, I admit it, I haven't played any Scriabin sonatas as of yet...  I do enjoy listening to superb recordings of them, however, and I count this in that group, koji.  Currently I'm learning the Scriabin Etudes op. 5/8 and op. 5/12.  Maybe later I'll take on one of these masterpieces.

Great job, dude!

Josh

[gaer]

Koji,

I had extra time tonight to listen on earphones, and I'm delighted to find out that the recording is is absolutely first-rate, and now that I'm hearing things more clearly, the playing seems even more spectacular.

I don't want to say this is the best thing you've done (that I've heard), but it's right at the top, and I'm about to say that as of this time it is my favorite of all the sonatas. But I suppose to get applause and lots of "bravos", you have to develop a cult following and play at Carnegie Hall. <ironic smile>

I've saved the recording and have added it to the top recordings I've got.

Gary

[thracozaag]

 Sidenote; this was on a hellaciously good Steinway with one of the best basses I've ever encountered (and had good karma--Argerich, Berman and Bolet had played it )

koji

[da jake]

My only suggestion: find a better audience. 

Excellent performance.

[gaer]

My only suggestion: find a better audience. 

ROARING WITH LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!

By the way, I have always felt that fame and quality of playing have little to do with each other. Yes, there are great players who have huge careers, but I swear many of the finest performances I've heard have been by people are not known at all or barely. This is the reason I find this forum so fascinating.

Gary

[da jake]

That is a very insightful comment. One of the best pianists I've ever heard in my life is actually my piano teacher.

There are many reasons that incredibly talented pianists choose not pursue fame.  A lack of talent is not one of them.

[gaer]

That is a very insightful comment. One of the best pianists I've ever heard in my life is actually my piano teacher.

There are many reasons that incredibly talented pianists choose not pursue fame.  A lack of talent is not one of them.

Of course! Just think how much Chopin hated performing, for instance, yet not only was he loved by his students, for so many reasons, we all know that Liszt (as well as many other people) had nothing but admiration for his playing.

Today, no matter how well you play, it is nearly impossible to have even a minor career without winning piano contests. I'm not saying that I'm one of the people who had no chance at a career because of not entering them, but I know others who DID give up possible careers for just that reason.

This is not to say that great players do not make it through the competition system, because they do, but I truly believe they do it in spite of the system, not because of it, and I have formed that opinion on the basis of what I've been told by at least one winner!

Gary

[princessdecadence]

Sidenote; this was on a hellaciously good Steinway with one of the best basses I've ever encountered (and had good karma--Argerich, Berman and Bolet had played it )

koji

That won't contribute even a little bit to this excellent playing.  One of your best recording I'v heard so far.  Thanks for posting.

[jlh]

Sidenote; this was on a hellaciously good Steinway with one of the best basses I've ever encountered (and had good karma--Argerich, Berman and Bolet had played it )

koji

Was it a Hamberg or a New Yorker?

[superstition2]

I don't think it's very good.

The opening notes are too loud and nonchalant. In fact, the rest of the piece is lacking in the proper feel, with ridiculous loud thrusts, bland trilling, and boring development. The playing is immature. Flashy and mostly empty.

While it's obvious you have great skill, you don't understand the music yet. I'm reminded of the critique of Rachmaninov's Scriabin "all Earth, no Fire".

I wouldn't write such a harsh critique if I didn't respect your potential. Blaming audiences isn't the key, either. I wouldn't be clapping much, myself, and this is one of my top 5 favorite pieces, along with the 7th, the 5th, the 1st, and Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata (original).

Actually, it does get somewhat better about half way through. It sounds like you've loosened up a bit and gotten into the piece more. It's still rather flat, though. There's a particularly odious spot near the end.

I haven't heard Sofronitsky's, but I suggest studying the performances of both Horowitz and Taub. Sofronitsky, of course, is always worthy, too. Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

[quantum]

I don't think it's very good.

The opening notes are too loud and nonchalant. In fact, the rest of the piece is lacking in the proper feel, with ridiculous loud thrusts, bland trilling, and boring development. The playing is immature. Flashy and mostly empty.

While it's obvious you have great skill, you don't understand the music yet. I'm reminded of the critique of Rachmaninov's Scriabin "all Earth, no Fire".

I wouldn't write such a harsh critique if I didn't respect your potential. Blaming audiences isn't the key, either. I wouldn't be clapping much, myself, and this is one of my top 5 favorite pieces, along with the 7th, the 5th, the 1st, and Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata (original).

Actually, it does get somewhat better about half way through. It sounds like you've loosened up a bit and gotten into the piece more. It's still rather flat, though. There's a particularly odious spot near the end.

I haven't heard Sofronitsky's, but I suggest studying the performances of both Horowitz and Taub. Sofronitsky, of course, is always worthy, too. Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

Anyone who knows Scriabin's music recognizes it's ability to trancend the stereotype of a "typical interpretation."  There is no one single interpretation that can be labeled as "the correct way of playing it."  With Scriabin, completely different preformances can all be extreemply plausible in their outcome.  Sure there are personal preferences, but they are all subjective.  The best thing about it is you can hear completely different ideas projected by different interpretations all in the same piece. 

[thracozaag]

I don't think it's very good.

The opening notes are too loud and nonchalant. In fact, the rest of the piece is lacking in the proper feel, with ridiculous loud thrusts, bland trilling, and boring development. The playing is immature. Flashy and mostly empty.

While it's obvious you have great skill, you don't understand the music yet. I'm reminded of the critique of Rachmaninov's Scriabin "all Earth, no Fire".

I wouldn't write such a harsh critique if I didn't respect your potential. Blaming audiences isn't the key, either. I wouldn't be clapping much, myself, and this is one of my top 5 favorite pieces, along with the 7th, the 5th, the 1st, and Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata (original).

Actually, it does get somewhat better about half way through. It sounds like you've loosened up a bit and gotten into the piece more. It's still rather flat, though. There's a particularly odious spot near the end.

I haven't heard Sofronitsky's, but I suggest studying the performances of both Horowitz and Taub. Sofronitsky, of course, is always worthy, too. Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

  Your extolling of Mr. Taub's performance tells me all I need to know about your "critique".  Good day.

koji

[pianohopper]

  Your extolling of Mr. Taub's performance tells me all I need to know about your "critique".  Good day.

koji

yeah..."a deep understanding of Scriabin's music"?  Koji -- I think it's good.  But more importantly, you're always going to get a few people who don't like what you do.  Everyone thinks they're a music critic, and thinks they're entitled to blast somebody once in a while. 

I almost laughed outloud when I saw that you have "potential."  I've listened to your stuff, and well...you've got fingers man. 

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would guess Koji understands this piece very well, and is intending a certain way to play this, which may be different for stupidtition2, but that doesn't make it bad.  Everyone doesn't see/hear things the same way.  So, don't jump to conclusions and make statements like the one above. 

I sympathyze Koji, but don't let it get your gota.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

I don't think it's very good.

The opening notes are too loud and nonchalant. In fact, the rest of the piece is lacking in the proper feel, with ridiculous loud thrusts, bland trilling, and boring development. The playing is immature. Flashy and mostly empty.

While it's obvious you have great skill, you don't understand the music yet. I'm reminded of the critique of Rachmaninov's Scriabin "all Earth, no Fire".

I wouldn't write such a harsh critique if I didn't respect your potential. Blaming audiences isn't the key, either. I wouldn't be clapping much, myself, and this is one of my top 5 favorite pieces, along with the 7th, the 5th, the 1st, and Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata (original).

Actually, it does get somewhat better about half way through. It sounds like you've loosened up a bit and gotten into the piece more. It's still rather flat, though. There's a particularly odious spot near the end.

I haven't heard Sofronitsky's, but I suggest studying the performances of both Horowitz and Taub. Sofronitsky, of course, is always worthy, too. Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

deep understanding of a piece only comes when you are able to play it, and play it well. and i believe koji understands it so well to be able to give a wonderful performance of it.

superstition2, please prove to me that you have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music... pls post ANY scriabin piece in the audition room.

[gaer]

Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

If you don't want people to think you are an "arrogant git", learn to communicate in a way that is not condescending, belittling and insulting. Express your opinions as just that—opinions—and not as "Gems of Wisdon" handed down to the rest of us, who, in your mind, do not have a "deep understanding of Scriabin's music".

Gary

[ted]

I just accept recordings for themselves as aural experiences. I have to, as I know very little about music really. I thought this well recorded piece contained all the clarity of articulation, dynamic scope and refined control which characterise Koji's playing on this forum. I too certainly thought it deserved much more enthusiastic applause, but maybe only a few people were present.

As to the piece itself, I do not think I understand what Scriabin was getting at, and therefore I am not yet in a position to comment.

[shasta]

I haven't heard Sofronitsky's, but I suggest studying the performances of both Horowitz and Taub. Sofronitsky, of course, is always worthy, too. Don't think I'm an arrogant git. I'm the first to admit I'm not a great pianist. But, I do completely believe I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music.

You don't have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music. 

You, my friend, have a deep understanding (or "familiarity", I suspect) of Horowitz's and Taub's interpretations of Scriabin's 10th Sonata.

[daniel patschan]

It is a very good performance - along with some big recordings (Glemser, Ashkenazy). 

[superstition2]

I know people can't tolerate objective criticism and require a lot of ego-stroking, but the only way to improve is to be told the truth.

Attack me all you like. I stand behind my critique. You can even take issue with my assertion that I have a deep understanding of Scriabin's music. Keep blaming audiences.

When you have a contract with a major label, let me know.

I tried to be kind, by saying that I respect your potential. But, although you have technical skills, it's clear that your personality makes it impossible for you to develop the necessary interpretive skill to play this piece well. Superficial flash may win some listeners over, but it's not what Scriabin is about.

[jlh]

When you have a contract with a major label, let me know.

I tried to be kind, by saying that I respect your potential. But, although you have technical skills, it's clear that your personality makes it impossible for you to develop the necessary interpretive skill to play this piece well. Superficial flash may win some listeners over, but it's not what Scriabin is about.

Having a contract with a major record label does not make you the authority on how a piece should be played.  There are thousands who can probably play this piece the way it should be played, and yet don't have a contract.  Take Lang Lang for instance... I believe he tries very hard, but he has a lot more flash than the music deserves.  He has a record contract.  The thing that saves him, and indeed the thing that made him an overnight success is the fact that he learns pieces extremely fast, not that he can interpret them well.

What I'm hearing you say is that Koji cannot EVER play this piece well because of his personality??  That's just complete bull.  Can you play this sonata any better?  If not, then you have no business saying it's bad playing.

Saying he has "potential" and then saying it's impossible for him to ever interpret it well sounds at best a contradiction and more likely a sign that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[superstition2]

You have a deep understanding (or "familiarity", I suspect) of Horowitz's and Taub's interpretations of Scriabin's 10th Sonata.

I chose those two performances because they are opposites and because they are both excellent. Horowitz's electric interpretation and Taub's subtle interpretation show different sides to the piece. While Horowitz is better than Taub, his way of playing Scriabin isn't the only way. Sofronitsky's 9th sonata, for instance, is very different from Horowitz's performances, and both pianists' interpretations are outstanding.

I have around 10 pianists' performances of this piece that I've studied, and I've been listening to Scriabin since 1997. I don't have a high opinion of many of them, including Ashkenazy's and Glemser's. Glemser's is boring and Ashkenazy's is strained. The liner notes of the latter ridiculously describe the piece as having "demented twittering", and Ashkenazy's performance seems to reflect a similarly odd interpretation.

Of course, all critiques of art are subjective. So, my previous post's reference to objectivity references my personal attempt at objectivity. No one in this forum can insist their opinion alone is valid. But, what's important for anyone who believes in growth is to hear the opinions not of flatterers, but of people who do their best to react to the music in an honest way. That's what I did. If people don't like it, well, my response is, I don't like the performance.

[superstition2]

Having a contract with a major record label does not make you the authority on how a piece should be played.  There are thousands who can probably play this piece the way it should be played, and yet don't have a contract.  Take Lang Lang for instance... I believe he tries very hard, but he has a lot more flash than the music deserves.  He has a record contract.  The thing that saves him, and indeed the thing that made him an overnight success is the fact that he learns pieces extremely fast, not that he can interpret them well.

While it's true that getting a contract doesn't guarantee the highest quality, it's generally the case. You're right regarding Ogdon's Scriabin sonatas. They're atrocious.

What I'm hearing you say is that Koji cannot EVER play this piece well because of his personality??  That's just complete bull.  Can you play this sonata any better?  If not, then you have no business saying it's bad playing.

Saying he has "potential" and then saying it's impossible for him to ever interpret it well sounds at best a contradiction and more likely a sign that you have no idea what you're talking about.

When someone is unwilling to heed anything but flattery, it's unlikely they'll improve.

[zheer]

I will put my hand up and say i dont have a deep understanding of any composer, one should trust ones own instinct, and deside if he she likes or dislikes something on that bases, so we should not attac superstotion for voicing his opinoion, espetialy if its don in a polite way.

[superstition2]

I will put my hand up and say i dont have a deep understanding of any composer, one should trust ones own instinct, and deside if he she likes or dislikes something on that bases, so we should not attac superstotion for voicing his opinoion, espetialy if its don in a polite way.

Thank you. I just listened to the performance again, and my opinion of it has improved substantially. There is some very good playing in parts. But, the things that troubled me initially are still there.

The dynamics are much too flat. There is not enough use of piano-pianissimo, and too much emphasis on "heavy Scriabin". Much of it almost sounds like it's trying to be the 7th sonata. It's as if the pianist is trying to be "big Horowitz" for extended sections. Horowitz's use of dynamic range is one of the things that makes his performance great. For every loud section, there is probably 2/3 more quiet area to go with it.

Near the end it starts to become clumsy, and becomes particularly clumsy in the loud section just before the restatement of the initial bars.

I think if you focus on improving the dynamic range of the piece, that will be the key to turning it into a much better performance. I'm sorry if my initial critique wasn't particularly helpful.

[jlh]

While it's true that getting a contract doesn't guarantee the highest quality, it's generally the case. You're right regarding Ogdon's Scriabin sonatas. They're atrocious.


When someone is unwilling to heed anything but flattery, it's unlikely they'll improve.

Don't think I'm attacking you by any means, I just want to make sure you understand how your posts are coming across.  I think you have a good understanding of the piece -- that's not the issue.  It's the way you came across.  You DID say he had potential, but you made a bigger point out of saying that he will never play it well.  Potential is negligible at the level Koji is at.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

Re: Scriabin Sonata #10, Op. 70