Ultra-fast arpeggios (ARGERICH)!!!

[findingnemo]

Hello everyone! (this is my first post here, yeah )

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how does Argerich achieved her super-fast scales & arpeggios,
as i was listening through his Chopin preludes, there was no doubt that her no.16 (the famous one) was crazy fast, but i was most interested in her no.24 (the last one), her last 3 arpeggios were just about the fastest arpeggios i've ever heard! it was faster my glissandos!!!  

so yeah, anyone have any suggestions on how to get arpeggios up to that speed ? (with that accuracy too??)

THANX~~

[eddie92099]

I don't think it's wise to compare our own playing as mere mortals to that of Argerich. Otherwise we may try and poorly imitate her and have nothing to say of our own,
Ed

[BoliverAllmon]

I saw the topic about argerich and I knew that eddie had either already replied or was about too. Sure enough he already had.

He does make a good point.

boliver

[findingnemo]

hey, thanx for the replies... (although not really helpful, lol  :-/ )

nah, i'm sure there got to be some kind of trick or ways/methods that could HELP to get your arpeggios up there,
it such a cool effect, she plays the 5 octaves descending arp in like ONE SEC! across the whole keyboard in one sec!! can you imagine how she does it??  

I really wanna know... coz now i'm working on a few pieces that has rapid arpeggios all over the place...... and i just cant get them good every time.... :-/

THANX~

[BoliverAllmon]

The faster you want to play, the slower you must practice. Play even quarter speed making sure your technique if perfect on every single note.

boliver

[thracozaag]

Actually, I find the reverse to work better for me.

[BoliverAllmon]

Really? You mean playing as fast as possible and don't worry about technique?

My piano teacher's teacher had the privilege of living around the same place Rachmaninoff was living. He went to the door of his place to listen to see if he could learn something from the great rachmaninoff. To his surprise Rachmaninoff was playing pathetically slow. so slow that he couldn't recognzie the piece.

I myself find that playing slower has enabled me to be surer on my notes, timing, and hence causes better playing. I play half speed or slower 3-5 times then 1 time fast.

boliver

[eddie92099]

My piano teacher's teacher had the privilege of living around the same place Rachmaninoff was living. He went to the door of his place to listen to see if he could learn something from the great rachmaninoff. To his surprise Rachmaninoff was playing pathetically slow. so slow that he couldn't recognzie the piece.

I heard a similar story - Rachmaninov was practising Chopin's Study in thirds and spending around 15 seconds on every note!
Ed

[Rach3]

Rachmaninov was practising Chopin's Study in thirds and spending around 15 seconds on every note!

Absurd! That's 4 minutes per measure!

[findingnemo]

hey thanx for the replies,

really? well, i have always been practicing slowly (and with different rhythms and stuff), probably not as slow as 15sec on everynote, but the result is just not convincing!, it just turns out "Notey", not like a fluent sweep as it should be, and i can only get the notes all perfect like once in .... hmmm 3-5 tries?, and at other times it just  collapses at  high speed,  :-/

so yea, then like Thracozaag suggested, my teacher then tells me that i should practice it fast, as she said in exact words "...why do people think that slow practices would get them into Carnegie Hall?, they wont!" (she learned with ARRAU, so i guess there should be some useful advice here   )

so i was wondering if anyone has any tips on practicing fast and accurate?  I dont think i'll play fast & accurate merely from 100times of fast playings or would i??

hmmm maybe i'll try that 15sec per note thing today...

thanx~

[eddie92099]

hmmm maybe i'll try that 15sec per note thing today...

It will take longer than a day  . I think practising at the fastest speed you can whilst remaining accurate has to be the best bet,
Ed

[JoeTownley]

Eacn pianist finds their own highest level of pianistic competence. Some of us could practice 24/7 for 20 years and never get close to what Argerich does. I've heard researchers postulate that Horowitz did what he did because of an abnormal nervous system, one that allowed his reflexes to operate at superhuman levels. Probably the same w/Argerich. Don't even begin to attempt what Argerich does or you will drive yourself to madness.

[BoliverAllmon]

(she learned with ARRAU, so i guess there should be some useful advice here   )

Rachmaninoff was real good maybe there is something useful advice there. I heard the opposite from teacher. She told me that her teacher use to laugh at the students at Peabody. He would say, "ha, these ignorant students are practicing as if they were performing. There is a huge difference between the two."

about practicing slow. I was constantly making mistakes on my bach invention. My teacher challenged me to play the bach at 60 to the 8th for an entire week. after the week I could play faster without any mistakes doing this. I think everyone has there own optimal practice speed. mine is between 70-100 to the 8th.

boliver

[chsmike2345]

Here's a trick:
Group the arpeggios into chords, and each chord group going up and down, without dropping you wrist. Try to get a strict horizontal motion with as little vertical motion as possible. Then, once that happens, simply play like your splitting chords, while keeping the same technique like while you were playing chords, and your arpeggios will be faster and cleaner.

[findingnemo]

Here's a trick:
Group the arpeggios into chords, and each chord group going up and down, without dropping you wrist. Try to get a strict horizontal motion with as little vertical motion as possible. Then, once that happens, simply play like your splitting chords, while keeping the same technique like while you were playing chords, and your arpeggios will be faster and cleaner.

this seems to be working! thanx man, my accuracies are better now, notes are cleaner too!   yeah....
although the speed is still no where like argerich... lol  :-/

by the way, the 15sec per note thing does help........not much.......... a little maybe , lol, it calms you down and makes your brain clearer,,, and yea, it gives you plenty of time to think.... (duh~ )

[thracozaag]

Really? You mean playing as fast as possible and don't worry about technique?

My piano teacher's teacher had the privilege of living around the same place Rachmaninoff was living. He went to the door of his place to listen to see if he could learn something from the great rachmaninoff. To his surprise Rachmaninoff was playing pathetically slow. so slow that he couldn't recognzie the piece.

I myself find that playing slower has enabled me to be surer on my notes, timing, and hence causes better playing. I play half speed or slower 3-5 times then 1 time fast.

boliver

 I certainly don't doubt such a story...William Kapell, my pianistic idol, also professed the glories of slow practice.  This is not to say I NEVER practice slow...I find it very helpful for sound production, key awareness and memorization.  But, I also agree with Tony Kuerti, who ONLY practices up to speed (and actually PRACTICES FASTER than when he performs) that a sprinter doesn't get ready for a 100 meter dash by jogging or running a marathon.
 Everyone has their different nervous systems (as pointed out people like Argerich, Horowitz, Cziffra are just "wired" differently), and one must be flexible with one's work habits.

[bernhard]

The difference between slow practice and fast practice (both are necessary, but they address different problems and aims) has been beautifully explained in Chang's online book. (The website is somewhere in this forum).

Bernhard.

[jennbo]

sometimes I don't practice, then all my teachers praise me.  when i practice you know 40 hrs a week, they all have something negative to say.  
As for the original post, follow chsmike's post.  Or just roll them, that usually helps.
I "mentally" practice.  I visualize myself playing.  That's what I usually do when I don't practice.  That helps.  Especailly during the ride before my lesson.  I dunno, it helps me focus and get in the zone where im very attentative and conscientous (sp) about everything, and yet I put myself into it.  
If that made no sense, please ignore everything

[BoliverAllmon]

Mental practice is invaluable. I heard of some great pianist (can't remember his name) that practiced only 3 hrs. a day and the rest was spent on mental practice. I myself find that the best way to conquer something on the piano is through my mind.

boliver

[srdabney]

Mental practice is invaluable. I heard of some great pianist (can't remember his name) that practiced only 3 hrs. a day and the rest was spent on mental practice. I myself find that the best way to conquer something on the piano is through my mind.

boliver

I think that was Josef Hofmann. I could be wrong, but he wasnt a big fan of long practice sessions.
Same guy though that would pick out *every* nuance, rest, phrase, and voice from the Hammerklavier (in his pre 1940 performances, at least).

SRD

[The Tempest]

I can't believe no one's mentioned Thumb Over yet,

[findingnemo]

I can't believe no one's mentioned Thumb Over yet,

hmmm do you use thumb over for arpeggios? coz sometimes i find the accuracy of the thumb over technique is kinda shaky, it can be very fast, but i dont know, i was taught the other way (thumb under)

and plus thumb over causes so much movement.... for me  :-/

[BoliverAllmon]

please elaborate on this thumb over technique.

boliver

[steinwaymodeld]

Thumb Under: Normal way to play octave, like connecting in all the playing, 1245(then thumb under the thumb) 1245.

Thumb over: it's not actually over, just as a contrast to the thumb under method.
it's like play the 124, than land the whole hand on the first note of the next register again and play 124
for eg

C maj octave

124(CEG)124(higher CEG),124124124124....

This method is widely used, much more than you think

for eg.
in Ocean Etude(Op.25 No.12), if you don't play thumb over, you are actually torturing yourself(and the composer intended to play that in thumb over)
also the Presto Con Fuoco part of the Ballade 1, the 1,25,1,25 part, you have to play thumb over in order to play fast and accurate

For the last comment saying thumb over is not accurate.
Accurate or not depends on how much you practice and where you use them

FOr eg. if you play ballade presto con fuoco with thumb under, you are kidding yourself.(I played it.)

[jennbo]

hmm i tried it... i realized i have a fat thumb.

[steinwaymodeld]

hmm i tried it... i realized i have a fat thumb.

then don't move your thumb too 'into' the keyboard.

work your way out man.

[Robert_le_diable]

To be able to play really fast arpeggios, there is really one piece that is outstanding for practise which of course is Chopin op.10 no.1. 6 pages of different harmony arpeggios (well some patterns will come back but very little repeating). Learn this piece by heart, which actually is not very hard if you are used to chord harmonies and begin to play bar by bar, slowly. Much slower than you need until fingering and technique is perfect. Then twice the tempo.
Though perfect this piece is b=176 is not something that the common piano player really can aim for. Even Horowitz stated that is was not possible to perfect in b=176.
My arpeggio playing speed has increased rapidly after learning this piece.

[steinwaymodeld]

To be able to play really fast arpeggios, there is really one piece that is outstanding for practise which of course is Chopin op.10 no.1. 6 pages of different harmony arpeggios (well some patterns will come back but very little repeating). Learn this piece by heart, which actually is not very hard if you are used to chord harmonies and begin to play bar by bar, slowly. Much slower than you need until fingering and technique is perfect. Then twice the tempo.
Though perfect this piece is b=176 is not something that the common piano player really can aim for. Even Horowitz stated that is was not possible to perfect in b=176.
My arpeggio playing speed has increased rapidly after learning this piece.

Robert, you are here!!!

YOu play by Thumb Under in this etude right?
I would be upriesd if you achieve such cohesiveness if youuse thumb over.

[bernhard]

Huh?
This study (op. 10 no. 1) requires neither thumb over, nor thumb under, since the arpeggios do not follow each other, but overlap to a large extent.

Bernhard.

[steinwaymodeld]

Huh?
This study (op. 10 no. 1) requires neither thumb over, nor thumb under, since the arpeggios do not follow each other, but overlap to a large extent.

Bernhard.

arg
you are right
thx for reminding me...

like the 1st bar, the 5th finger extended to the E, the thumb on C....

i was kinda feeling dizzy last night after studying.

[eddie92099]

Huh?
This study (op. 10 no. 1) requires neither thumb over, nor thumb under, since the arpeggios do not follow each other, but overlap to a large extent.

This had me confused too!
Ed

[Robert_le_diable]

Robert, you are here!!!

YOu play by Thumb Under in this etude right?
I would be upriesd if you achieve such cohesiveness if youuse thumb over.

Yes I play TU as there is no way control this beast in another way.
And Yes I am here too :-).

[Robert_le_diable]

Huh?
This study (op. 10 no. 1) requires neither thumb over, nor thumb under, since the arpeggios do not follow each other, but overlap to a large extent.

Bernhard.

It is not TO/TU as normally referred to when it comes to scales but there are some bars where the release of finger 5 is next to next key with finger 1. As in bars 13-16 where finger 5 and 1 almost meet. I go TU which conflicts with me as I am thaught to use TO only. Cannot get the right flow any other way.

[steveolongfingers]

turn off your thinking cap....dont actually think about what your playing...just play it.  sounds dumb but it works for me, although my arpeggios are not as fast as argerich (whose are?), im proud of them.  

[chsmike2345]

All this talk of thumb under and thumb over is weird! I thought the accepted way of playing arpeggios (at least accepted by my teachers) is what you guys call "thumb over", 123-123-123. Whether it be for warming up or for arpegios in pieces (end of Liszt paganini Etude No. 6), thumb over is both faster and more convenient for me. The jump in thumb-under is just too large, as you have to move your thumb from one end of the hand to the other end, which is a huge jump, very risky, and probably inaccurate, although I have not tried this.

[GraceStansbury]

try using different rythms slowly, just after a bit you'll be playing faster and more accurately.  

[bitus]

Practicing slow is the hardest because you need the most amount of concentration...  I highly respect anybody who can practice slow... it requires so much more discipline of thought.
When learning a new piece or working on hard passages, fast equals superficial...
Bitus.

[steinway88]

The only was to play that fast [that I know of] is to loosen the hand and get the arpeggio as legato as possible. Try not to get any ''glumpse'' in it or it won't sound as fast and smooth.