"Fudging" parts of the transcendentals?

[rapmasterb]

I read an article recently about Liszts transcendental studies and one of the points it raised was that part of the challenge (for concert pianists) of playing them is deciding which parts of the piece you cannot play satisfactorily and how you can cover this up. He said that pianists have to accept that some parts just have to be "fudged" and that it is a given fact when you play them. I'm curious, does anyone know which  parts these would be? I realise it might differ from pianist to pianist but I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

(By the way I cant find the article again but I will continue to search for it in order that you can see the exact phrasing of the point)

[thorn]

before I was comfortable with Chasse-Neige I never counted the proper number of temoli and just blurred it with the pedal... and added extra notes inbetween the leaps in the opening to make it easier to pivot up there.

but at the end of the day, these "concert pianists" who do that to Liszt etudes obviously just want to show off their virtuosity and dont really care about the piece itself... you can't treat a Liszt etude the same as your average etude, and its a shame for him because all his music is just treated as show off pieces and a lot of the time they are totally wrecked by it.

if you have to "fudge" a transcendental etude; dont perform it- simple as. mistakes fair enough- easily made and no performance is complete without them.. this is deliberate actions we're talking about right?

[kriskicksass]

In Liszt's music it is always acceptable to alter passages if you feel it helps you better convey the music. If part of that is simplfying passages so you can focus on interpreting it rather than freaking out during it, so be it; however, if you're learning Liszt's etudes for pedagogical reasons and you don't learn them as written, with his fingerings, you're basically a bad person. 

In other words, learn them properly, perform them however you want. Liszt would approve.

[ramseytheii]

Everyone glosses over something in these pieces, even Cziffra.  I can cite exact bars if you want, but especially in mazeppa  I remember lots of fudges, and I think sometimes he is leaving out the left hand also.  Or the left hand gets on the wrong notes, andh e is playing so soft you can't hear it.  But still it is one of my favorite CDs!  Probably Berezovsky can play every note perfect, but then again even in his Mazeppa he has a memory lapse.  Has it every hapened?  Who knows! 

Walter Ramsey

[henrah]

Probably Berezovsky can play every note perfect, but then again even in his Mazeppa he has a memory lapse.

Really?? I never noticed such a lapse. Though I've never heard the entire piece before him...

Could you give me a time value in a youtube video of it so I can see what you mean?

[Ruro]

Really?? I never noticed such a lapse. Though I've never heard the entire piece before him...

Could you give me a time value in a youtube video of it so I can see what you mean?

Someone stated the time 3:30 in another thread, the same video that's on YouTube. I just checked it with the score, and at Measure 112 when he's playing the Octaves going down (After the 2 short sections of them staggered), he only jumps up 3 times to play the descending octaves, where he should have done it 4 times and reach the highest octave on B - he only reached the E Natural one.

Although tbh, I can't tell which notes his playing, my ear ain't good enough, and neither is the camera angle! So he might have skipped the E Natural and moved straight onto the B instead... O_o But it sounds a bit perculiar, so I bet he hit the E Natural octave.

[dnephi]

Someone stated the time 3:30 in another thread, the same video that's on YouTube. I just checked it with the score, and at Measure 112 when he's playing the Octaves going down (After the 2 short sections of them staggered), he only jumps up 3 times to play the descending octaves, where he should have done it 4 times and reach the highest octave on B - he only reached the E Natural one.

Although tbh, I can't tell which notes his playing, my ear ain't good enough, and neither is the camera angle! So he might have skipped the E Natural and moved straight onto the B instead... O_o But it sounds a bit perculiar, so I bet he hit the E Natural octave.

That means he played the 6 octave version! read the score .

[Ruro]

P***

Without looking I guess it's part of the Ossia? *Sighs* I sometimes look at those things for the difference, and often or not... it's sooo minute >_<

Thanks for pointing dat out ^_^;;

[dnephi]

P***

Without looking I guess it's part of the Ossia? *Sighs* I sometimes look at those things for the difference, and often or not... it's sooo minute >_<

Thanks for pointing dat out ^_^;;

Yea, it's ok.  It's the ossia.  Good find though.

However, the idea that
"In Liszt's music it is always acceptable to alter passages if you feel it helps you better convey the music." is interesting.  I might experiment with that.  As in, adding a quick thingy that has more fury :p.

[maxy]

hum... there is a screwed-up part, but it's not the ossia thing stated earlier.  He messed up a transition and was heading towards an earlier part.  His recovery was fantastic! 

[dnephi]

hum... there is a screwed-up part, but it's not the ossia thing stated earlier.  He messed up a transition and was heading towards an earlier part.  His recovery was fantastic! 

Well still I can see that.  Personally, I am just an amateur, but I am starting to whip out the Mazeppa at a very fast speed.  It is so emotional.  It is as deep as Rachmaninoff's Third Concerto in my opinion if played with its true seriousness.  Berezovsky blasted through what would have been stunning emotionally without even caring about it at some points .  But my point is that there's no place to "fudge" it in that etude.  Berezovsky's mistake came from being nervous I bet.
Btw, if you can find it, Godowsky article for how to develop octave technique is absolutely amazing! It almost doubled my octaves' speed clarity power and accuracy.  Apply that practicing technique to double thirds and you will play the Mazeppa amazingly.