"Outstanding"

[paulmoony]

Hey.
I've got a problem with my parents.
I've been on this forum for some months and I read some
stuff about the amount of practice and etc...
Like If you practice too much, you'll injure yourself and never be able to play again,
or it's just a waste of time because you really aren't concentrating.

BUT my parent's says that If you do exactly the same as other people (practice the same
amount), you'll never be famous or at least "Outstanding".
They say that I should practice at least 6 hours a day.. .

When I told them that more hours didn't really improve your skills,
they didn't listen and said that was nonsense because They know
from "experience of life( Age )" ... I'm sure some other people are in the same situation...
What should I do here....

[pianistimo]

why are your parents demanding six hours of practice when it is you that should decide when you are tired.  it may vary from day to day.  requiring more than an hour should be declared abuse.  even piano teachers do not suggest any more than 2-3 hours at a time.  why should one expect six hours of someone else.  you cannot know what they are feeling or how their concentration level is.  some days it may be very high for you.  but, if you are like most people - imo, you'll have times when it might be better to do something else.

of course, asking an artist - they may tell you that six hours is the minimum for every other day. or something to that effect.  i wouldn't doubt my piano teacher at least gets six hours in every other day.  he is amazing.  and yet - he's also got a phenomenal memory which could let him get away with much less.  i really haven't a clue exactly how much he practices.  all i know is that you do not want to get carpel tunnels at this early stage of your development (or at all).  talk to some doctors and ask them to write some letters to your parents explaining the risks of practicing six hours per day.  perhaps your parents would be content if it were also music classes?  including theory, orchestration, conducting.  all these things help with musical interpretation. 

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Six hours a day will ensure exhaustion, a common initiator of meaninless practice. You can spend an hour going over a piece over and over a gain and to no avail, yet you can spend 20 minutes of one section or even a few bars and gain tremendous benefit. 6 hours may also ensure repetition of mistakes that you didn't know existed in your playing, whilst  20 minutes of concentration can eliminate those errors.

Your parents are misinformed about the "quality vs. quantity" notion. You can devote to a lot of meaningless quantity or an effective amount of quality, the later of course better for anyone.

[lagin]

My teacher says 4 - 6 hours a day when preparing for your first university level program.  (We do grading systems here in Canada, so that would be the ARCT level, or equivalent to DipABRSM, but we have about twice as many pieces to do - six in total).  She did about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a day with a day off her and there, and completed her program in 2 years.  If you're wondering about it taking so long, she also got in the 90%, so I'm sure she could have done it sooner, but with a lower mark, though most people do take the 2 years to do it anyways.   But there is also a large jump in the level of difficulty of the repertoire between our grade 10 and our ARCT, which doesn't help. 

When I was around the level of the Pathetique Sonata, and starting into some Rachmaninoff, I practiced around 4 hours a day on average (I average it out because I was kind of sporadic in my practicing, but kept track of my hours none the less).   At that pace I completed a 45 minute program up to exam standard in a year's time.  Don't know if that helps, but at least it gives you some perspective on someone else's practice experience.  We all learn at different paces, though.

[paris]

surprisingly, i think your parents are right. i mean right, if we're speaking about proffesional career as a pianist, which i think we do speak about. 6 hours, if spent properly, won't do you any harm. whatever you've read on forum, here and there, don't take too seriously. if you have big and demanding repertoire, then you need more time for your practising. there is no bigger success without an effort, sadly, but true. however, only huge amount of hours won't take you to carnegie, but with smart practising and talent (and some luck heh..) you have nice chances

only you know how much do you need and how long you can concentrate. neither your parents or some forum guy. but from my personal experience, parents whatever they say, they always have only good intentions 

requiring more than an hour should be declared abuse. 

 

[piuvivo]

Practicing is the ultimate art form and journey. Three hours of smart practicing on a consistent basis, with other homework and studies added and involved, should be sufficient. Truly talented and proficient musicians should not need more than this, unless they are learning extra repertoire for a specific instance. e.g. Three hours in a gym vs. six hours in a gym? You decide, especially if you have an excellent trainer.

[etudes]

surprisingly, i think your parents are right. i mean right, if we're speaking about proffesional career as a pianist, which i think we do speak about. 6 hours, if spent properly, won't do you any harm. whatever you've read on forum, here and there, don't take too seriously. if you have big and demanding repertoire, then you need more time for your practising. there is no bigger success without an effort, sadly, but true. however, only huge amount of hours won't take you to carnegie, but with smart practising and talent (and some luck heh..) you have nice chances

only you know how much do you need and how long you can concentrate. neither your parents or some forum guy. but from my personal experience, parents whatever they say, they always have only good intentions 

 

true
Rudolf Serkin forced his students to practice at least 8 hours a day and practice 1 hour more after feel really tired to force you to the limit
It is just the professional way...no exception

[paris]

Truly talented and proficient musicians should not need more than this

does that mean that you're calling lang lang, richter, arrau..etc. not 'truly talented and proficient musicians'?

you're saying that 3 hours is right amount, without knowing his abilities, his repertoire, his expectations..a bit doubtful i'd say

[etudes]

I am not sure
but I think H.Neuhaus said...talented 10 % and Hardworking 90%
decide by yourself 

[ted]

I suggest that such considerations depend on you and nobody else. How intimately connected do you see your music and your happiness ?  What is important to you in life ? Would your working long hours at music be motivated by a deep calling toward art and the act itself, or simply by a desire to be outstanding and famous or, even worse, by a desire on the part of your parents that you should be outstanding and famous ?

Once the underlying motives of everybody are sorted out I am sure the question will pose little difficulty for you.

[jonslaughter]

My personal experience is that the more you practice the better you will become.  If you are able to structure your routine and make a habit of practicing 6 hours a day chances are you will go pretty far.  If all you do when you practice is doodle around and not practice specific things to get better on then you are wasting a lot of time. Its very hard not to do this down at the beginning.

If you think about all the things that you need to practice on you will realize that 6 hours is not even enough.

I think you have to ask yourself what you want to get out of the piano. If you are doing only for fun or because your parents are making you then you won't go very far. If you are doing it because you want to be the best then you wouldn't ask such a question because you probably would be practicing atleast 10 hours a day already.

if your serious though what you really need to do is structure your practice by allocating time to each of the different things you need to get better on. You also have to realize that you don't need to spend, say, 1 hr running scales because you get diminished returns. 15 mins is enough or maybe 30 at the start.  Ofcourse I guess its different for each person though and it depends on a lot of other factors

Its entirely up to you though but also realize that if it was easy then everyone would be a great pianist(which means everyone would suck). If you can force yourself on a routine for a month or more then you will make it a habit and it will become natural.

You can't expect to be the best if you don't practice so obviously its all in how you practice. There might be a way where you only have to practice 1 hr a day to achieve greatness but I doubt anyone knows how. 

Its all up to you though. I know some guys who are great musicians but do not enjoy there ability because they only did it beacause there parents made them. I on the other hand was not given this ability and cannot play worth a crap. I wish I had what they had. So figure out what you want and then if you decide you want to do piano then figure out how good you want to be.  If you just want to be avg then you might get away with 2-3 hrs a day or maybe less. If you want to be the best then you probably need atleast 12 but probably more along with an excellent piano, a wide range a teachers.. lots of motivation, learning theory, ear training, etc...  (and with all that you'll probably need atleast 15 hrs a day)  Ofcourse lets not argue about who is the best because we know there is no such thing... my point is if you want to be at the top you will have to work at it and it won't be easy(but maybe not heard either).

Anyways, thats just my take on it.

[quasimodo]

Quality over quantity, certainly, but why wouldn't you take both? If you have the time to practice 6 hours a day, definitely do it.
Now, you're not going to practice 6 hours solid. I think nobody can do that. Practice in several sessions with breaks in between.

[jonslaughter]

I would also like to point out that there is a free book on piano practice and other things that are important on the net by a guy named chang. It might be something worth looking into. I have no idea how good it is though but it looks like this guy as put a lot of effort into it.  It does discuss other important things like piano tunning and such. It almost seems to good to be true in the sense that if this guy really knows what he's talking about then he should be up there with the best of them. Anyways, it can't hurt to look into it as it might be just what you need to get on track.

[dnephi]

Quality over quantity, certainly, but why wouldn't you take both? If you have the time to practice 6 hours a day, definitely do it.
Now, you're not going to practice 6 hours solid. I think nobody can do that. Practice in several sessions with breaks in between.

The longest I have ever managed straight was 3:30.  I was drained, mostly because I hadn't eaten breakfast!  I believe the most efficacious thing to do is break it up into the most efficient morsels so your mind can think.  IE, Wake up, warm up, 30 minutes, do something, 30 minutes, (or go early to school or go to seminary).  Play for 30-an hour or more, take a break, etc.  Your mind subconsciously filters and processes the information from practicing once you leave the piano and even in your sleep.

[paris]

interesting, short break is always good, but i noticed for myself that when i make bigger breaks, like half an hour, i tend to lose inspiration and interest. when i'm in the middle of doing something and i'm occupied with that, i can sit 2-3 hours solid without any effort.

[thalbergmad]

interesting, short break is always good, but i noticed for myself that when i make bigger breaks, like half an hour, i tend to lose inspiration and interest. when i'm in the middle of doing something and i'm occupied with that, i can sit 2-3 hours solid without any effort.

Me too. A short break needs to be like 5-10 minutes.

Any more, and i don't want to go back.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I am not sure
but I think H.Neuhaus said...talented 10 % and Hardworking 90%
decide by yourself 

true, but perhaps without the 10%, the 90% is pointless.

Thal

[debussy symbolism]

Not true, or at least so in accordings to my beliefs. Pure hard work does have it's merits.

[lostinidlewonder]

A professional pianist practicing for 1 hour could be equivalient of an average amature studying for 4 hours. So you could study 24 hours a day and never get near a professional musician study efficiency. Look at Sviatoslav Richter's encyclopaedic repetoire he had all in his head, then you can calculate how much time you need to become a great. To most it will be unachievable unless there are changes to the rate they can learn music at.

We have to develop our learning ability if we hope to become great pianists. The sad fact is that not everyone can increase the rate at which they learn music to a professional level. They might be able to play pieces at a high standard but the effort to produce it took months/years. This is because of the physical nature of playing the piano, the ability to read music, or play by ear is restricted. These tools can be learnt but everyone has a limitation to their efficiency.

But then again there are no requirements to become a professional musician (except produce great sound), I know a lot of pro musicians who learn music at an amature rate.

[netzow]

My teacher says 4 - 6 hours a day when preparing for your first university level program.  (We do grading systems here in Canada, so that would be the ARCT level, or equivalent to DipABRSM, but we have about twice as many pieces to do - six in total).  She did about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a day with a day off her and there, and completed her program in 2 years.  If you're wondering about it taking so long, she also got in the 90%, so I'm sure she could have done it sooner, but with a lower mark, though most people do take the 2 years to do it anyways.   But there is also a large jump in the level of difficulty of the repertoire between our grade 10 and our ARCT, which doesn't help. 

When I was around the level of the Pathetique Sonata, and starting into some Rachmaninoff, I practiced around 4 hours a day on average (I average it out because I was kind of sporadic in my practicing, but kept track of my hours none the less).   At that pace I completed a 45 minute program up to exam standard in a year's time.  Don't know if that helps, but at least it gives you some perspective on someone else's practice experience.  We all learn at different paces, though.

Just to second the motion (sort of) I am at the level of the Pathetique Sonata and played my first Rachmaninoff recently too. I practce about 4 hours a day on average when I can. What to do about your parents? Get them to browse Piano Street

[jpianoflorida]

so a few questions:

how old are you?

do you love the piano or are they forcing you to play?

what are YOUR goals for piano?(not your parents goals, YOUR goals)

Is piano more important to you than anything else?

ok....so you don't have to answer those questions for the forum unless you want...but think about the answers long and hard and you'll know what to do!

[pianowelsh]

Practise precicely as much as you NEED to. I remember hearing a distinguished pianist say that we only practice to avoid disaster.. not for the sake of ticking off hours. If you practice ever descends to 'i have 1 more hour to go then i can take a break' then you are doing too much and wasting your time. Agreed with Paris.. some youngsters set on a career will happily practice 8+ hrs per day without being pushed to do so.. Some extremely talented individuals can achieve the same quality on 2!! Thats life - we are all different. You have to experiment a bit to find you optimum. Best piece of advice I can give is however long you practice make every minute and every repetition count - dont just spend the time dusting the keys by endlessly 'going through' repertoire. Practice what is bad cherrish what is good then put it all together so you get a sense of what is achieved and what needs to be done still. That will give focus to your next session.. Too often we just sit and play without really planning our practice. Thats what makes the difference between someone who is amateur minded and professional.

[ilikepie]

Look at it this way,
2 hours in the morning, right before lunch.
2 hours in the afternoon.
2 hours right before going to sleep.
Assuming you are awake 16 hours and asleep the other 8, you have 10 hours of relaxation.... It really is not impossible as long as you divide it, and not play in straight.

[lagin]

I disagree about the "I only have one more hour to go then I can have a break," mentality being a bad thing.  I say that to myself daily!   If I only practiced when I wanted to I would take a long time in reaching my goals.  Piano is not my hobby, though.  It's full time, so hence the more agressive attitude towards practice.  However, I also do something else after I say that to myself.  I follow it with, "what productive goal should I have, or what piece should I focus on for that hour."  I try to not allow myself to "mindlessly" twiddle away that hour even though I wish I could be watching a movie instead! 

To offset what I just said, I am not always a nazi about practicing.  Like today for instance.  Yes, I could do my last 2 hours of practice, but I had a lesson that ate up a good part of my usual practice time, I am trying to give my recovering arm a rest, and I plan to be diligent everyday next week if I can, so I totally just finished watching a movie!  And sometimes I know that I just need a day off because I know that I am so not in the mood to practice that I don't think it would be very productive or enjoyable.  But I can tell the difference between, "I don't want to," and "I REALLY TRULLY HONESTLY don't want to and need a break!"  And I try to mainly cater to the later, though I have been know to give in to the first .   

Long story, short, there is a time for work (even if we don't want to), and a time for play.  And I agree, a schedule works wonders.  I know a couple people doing/have done 6 hours a day, and they both were up at 5 or 6 in the morning and took a 1/2 hour break every 2 hours, and had all afternoon off being done at noon or 1pm at the latest. 

[g_s_223]

Well, if you have six hours available for music, I'd drop 2 hours of piano and spend that time on another completely different non-keyboard instrument, or maybe composition. Stringed instruments are probably the most challenging (and rewarding), and you can play in an orchestra for fun.

There will actually be a synergistic effect when you play two instruments, and a big payoff in musicality I'd say.

[zheer]

  Both Chopin and Richter, strongly believed that three hours of practice daily is all one needs . Now why are a large number of pianists on this forum practicing 6 - 12 hours a day . Unless you are going to be a concert pianist  or are a really bizy concert pianist then 6 - 12 hours is too much.
    I find that 20 minuts once every hour over a three hour period is all that i need as an amature pianist.
 

[thierry13]

  Both Chopin and Richter, strongly believed that three hours of practice daily is all one needs . Now why are a large number of pianists on this forum practicing 6 - 12 hours a day . Unless you are going to be a concert pianist  or are a really bizy concert pianist then 6 - 12 hours is too much.
    I find that 20 minuts once every hour over a three hour period is all that i need as an amature pianist.

I'm on the road to be a performer, or very high-level teacher(and occasionaly performer too), and I agree too, that 3 hours a day is way enough, if you do it well.