Beethoven. "Fur Elise" ( +"Alphabet and 3 Rules of Dynamics" in comments )

[vladimirdounin]

I am sorry that I had no opportunity to participate in the work of this wonderful Forum for more than one year. I am very moved and appreciated that some of the members of this Forum still remember me and send sometimes e-mails to me.

May this my recording (encore from ordinary concert - I recently played it at "Glenn Gould Concert Studio" of Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - CBC, Toronto, Ontario, October 20. 2006) be my HELLO to everybody who remembers my postings about Fine Indication Of Relative Note Intensity (FIORNI) and around this and other problems in performing and teaching.

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin

[counterpoint]

Really great, I am deeply impressed by the subtlety of your playing! You know, this piece is one of the most maltreated piano pieces one can think of. So I'm quite fearful whenever someone threatens to play this 
But what pleasing surprise hearing your wonderful performance!
I'm very curious about your "rules", which - surprisingly - seem really to work.
Could you tell more about it?

[vladimirdounin]

Really great, I am deeply impressed by the subtlety of your playing! You know, this piece is one of the most maltreated piano pieces one can think of. So I'm quite fearful whenever someone threatens to play this 
But what pleasing surprise hearing your wonderful performance!
I'm very curious about your "rules", which - surprisingly - seem really to work.
Could you tell more about it?

I would like to tell and I consider this my duty and  the first objective of being here. I had no opportunity to visit Forum for more than year due to personal problems and moving. Now I was very glad to read numerous requests to read more about "these rules".

These rules are very simple and logical. All of them (that I know) I can write on one standard  Letter Size page. The problem is that no one of them was printed ever before (as far as I know), and the fact itself that I had a chick to print them causes usually severe allergy.

 By the way, my teachers did not allow me to write down or mark in my scores any of them. It was very easy for me  to understand them in the country, where, e.g., great D. Shostakovich in 1948 was thrown away (for his "formalism in music") not only from the Conservatory (he lost in this way his job as professor) but from his appartment simply on the street as well.   

These rules are obviously  the same kind of "formalism in music". However, I could not expect such "totalitarian emotions" around them, these "passions" really surprised me. I taught these rules without any problem to 5-6 years old beginners, to my choristers in opera, who never did music before and performed on the stage in excellent way after 15-20 rehearsals, to violinists, to saxophonists etc. However, many colleagues of mine do not want to listen about any rules in music (they believe in so called "self-expression" instead) and deny even any reason for using them.

In spite of all these circumstances, I would like to try to tell about all of these rules here. However, instead of printing all of them at once, let us do everything step by step: exactly like I do with my students of any age. As long as I will have "feed back" (does not matter:positive or negative) I will continue these steps.

STEP ONE. We must accept the simple fact that our Piano music is a wonderful kind of ... math. It is not more frustrating fact at all than the statement that flowers are made of molecules, or each of us consists of atoms. And even the most exiting words in our lives are made just of simple and boring letters. This is the truth, even if we do not like it. Pitch = frequency of vibrations, just data. Timing and Volume are pure math as well. That's all. I do not know anything else in Piano music. If somebody can enrich my knowledge - let us discuss it. 

EXERCISE ONE. Please play any two notes with the absolutely equal strength. For example, B and C, forte. Ask at least 3 persons: which note is louder? If the answer is "C" or "B", you have to ask them: are you sure? If any of 3 persons says that he/she is sure - you are not ready to start learning "The Rules". You have to practice more. If all 3 say that the strengths of notes are absolutely the same - congratulations! You are ready for our "step two". But tell me, please, about your results first.

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin.   

[vladimirdounin]

I'm very curious about your "rules", which - surprisingly - seem really to work.
Could you tell more about it?

STEP TWO: In spite of popular opinion that "the bigger contrasts in dynamics are the better ones" we have to realize that our dynamics are in fact very limited. It is not only about our physical power and durability of "Steiway" and "Yamaha", it is about our audience. The person in a very first row hears you louder by 80 times (these are scientific data - do you want to make him deaf at the end of your concert?) than the person in the last one (do you want him/her to stand up and ask you to return money because nothing was possible to hear from their seats?).

It means that we can make the only illusion of fortissimo and pianissimo but never use any of both in real. About technical details of these illusions we will speak later. Today we have to think about the words that many great pianists expressed in different ways but the sense was still the same: the bigger master uses the smaller resourses (it is about differences as well). We can say today: the biggest uses the smallest ones and try to find out: what is "the smallest?".

EXERCISE TWO: Play any two notes in sequence (e.g. our familiar "B" and "C") with the SMALLEST difference in volume that you can feel. Ask at least 3 persons: which one is louder? If only one or no one will answer properly, your difference was too small. However, if all three gave the right answer - you  did too much, your difference was TOO BIG.

However, if two of three feel about your "B" and "C" the same that you ment - you are really great today: it is exactly the SMALLEST difference that we can feel. We will call this SMALLEST difference in a very simple way - One Degree of difference = 1'.

I am waiting for your comments and opinions (positive or negative - both are welcomed). Then we will continue our "school of playing beautifully".

                    Vladimir Dounin                             

[counterpoint]

Dear Mr. Dounin,

it seems to me that you make very much words which contain very little information. Great part of the people in this forum are well trained pianists/piano players, who don't have a problem in controlling their dynamics. Perhaps you have students in your everyday work, who never in their life thought about dynamics at all.

What is interesting to me is the point, where your special method is different from that, what we all learned from our teachers. Since you tell us, that your method will make us play as the world's best pianists in a few hours. Until now, that sounds as an empty phrase to me.

On the other side, you are playing very well and beautiful, but that is no prove for your method. You're a musical person and you have the intuiton to play as beautiful as you do. But I bet, you had some really good teachers, which told you much more about music and piano playing than just dynamics and timing.

So, please, what's your method about, what is different from others? 

[vladimirdounin]

QUOTE
Dear Mr. Dounin,

it seems to me that you make very much words which contain very little information. Great part of the people in this forum are well trained pianists/piano players, who don't have a problem in controlling their dynamics. Perhaps you have students in your everyday work, who never in their life thought about dynamics at all.

ANSWER

Dear Counterpoint,

I appreciate your comments and will try my best to satisfy you. I have understood that you have no problem in controlling your dynamics (I wish to say the same about myself and my students but have no reason for such a statement. I, and all my students, of course,  have a lot of problems with dynamics. And the more of them we solve - the more others we see behind solved ones. This is my reason of being here).

I am specializing not in Dynamics but in "Microdynamics". I want to know relations between any pair of neghboring notes: which of them is louder or softer in comparison to the next and previous ones. If we will compare our notes with shingles on the roof - I want to know exactly: which side of each shingle should be "above" and which side should be "under". You know that  roof will be leaking if order of these "over" and "under" is wrong. Exactly the same we can see/hear in music: music is ugly and boring, if wrong notes are stressed or softened.

If you do not see any problem for you on this field, tell me, please about the first 27 notes of "Fur Elise": which one of these 27 notes (they are pasted here, at the top of this post) do you stress and which one do you soften? I will even more appreciate if you will tell me the same about the first 27 notes in my recording that I attached here. In this case I will be able to compare your version with the another one that is in my head.

Please, take my request seriously and do this favour for me. I am really interested: what you will answer. Especially interesting for me is your way that you (inevitable) will  have to find to convey this information to me and other readers. (I and my students do it easily - that is the basis of my method).

QUOTE
What is interesting to me is the point, where your special method is different from that, what we all learned from our teachers. Since you tell us, that your method will make us play as the world's best pianists in a few hours. Until now, that sounds as an empty phrase to me.

ANSWER

"Our Teachers" tought us right notes and more/less right timing. However, they usually did not know the way to correct bad phrasing and wrong stressing and softenning of the notes. As far as know, only method "play like I play" was used. The majority of students are not able to copy play of their teachers. This is the reason, why so many students drop music: they can not enjoy what they play. All what we have to do to improve the situation is: to give to our students exact, accurate knowledge about each note they play. I am suggesting an "easy-digestable" form of this knowledge. That is new.


QUOTE
On the other side, you are playing very well and beautiful, but that is no prove for your method. You're a musical person and you have the intuiton to play as beautiful as you do. But I bet, you had some really good teachers, which told you much more about music and piano playing than just dynamics and timing.

ANSWER
I am very thankful to my country for my 19 years of super-intensive and FREE musical education (who can afford the same here?), even more - the state paid me (scolarship) for my successful study. I know about music at least 100 times more than any of my students.

However, many of my students play the same pieces better than I do, if I give them right instructions about each note in the score. I have to post their recordings here, in "Audition Room", of course. This should  be a real proof for "The Rules". I am going to do it  as soon as I will learn technical details of recordings (equipment is bought already).

I do not think that this way is better than my education, but it is more effective and economical. It means that everyone can play better than I do, for much cheaper price than my state and myself (practicing in ineffective way) paid.

So, please, what's your method about, what is different from others? 

ANSWER

Please, read my recent answer to "Marik" in "Performance" ("The best way to play "Moonlight"). I described the method in a very short way there. (Sorry, I do not know: how can I copy my text from that answer here).

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin

[vladimirdounin]

QUOTE
gorbee natcase
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
                                           You should write a book and cash in.


ANSWER

I have remembered one song with the words: “Sometimes silence says much more than many words”. Now I can see clearly: why “The Rules” work perfectly “in contact” and never “from a distance”? The simple answer is that nobody reads them.

Now I do believe that I can write a book, I do believe that some people can buy it. However, I do NOT believe that anyone will read the first 100 pages out of 102. Everyone will read just page 101 and page 102 and then say with disappointment: “Unfortunately, this does not work. It is not possible even to understand: what this is all about”.

Imagine, please, that you are trying to teach “Building Materials and Construction Business” from a distance, but no one is interested to know: what brick is and how to make it? 

Can these tiny differences in strength of the notes be really important? I would like to answer with such a parallel:
 If my Chinese student asks his Mom: “Could you, please bring poison for my teacher?” -  I am not scared for my life. I say “thanks” and drink glass full of this “poison”. Because I know that my careful student simply noticed from my voice that I had a sore throat.

Why “poison” then?
- Because China has very old medical traditions and Chinese language and mentality do not consider medicine and poison as something different. It corresponds perfectly with the basic statement of classical European medicine: “Everything is a poison, everything is a medicine. Only dosage (quantity) makes a difference”.

Absolutely the same can be said about any language, including one of them – our beloved Music. Try to say your “Hello” to your friends “ppp” (too soft) – and they will be going to call “Ambulance”. Try to say “fff”(too loud): “How are you?” to your boss at work, - and he will call police or fire you, etc.

Modern specialists say that these tiny differences in strength of certain sounds are the biggest problem and obstacle in learning foreign languages, especially in distant learning.

I will never forget one my neighbor in Johannesburg. He immigrated to South Africa from Liverpool, England, where he was born and lived over 50 years. And this well educated British gentleman complained to me (Russian immigrant with 200-300 words of vocabulary) that I am the only one person in South Africa, who can understand him without problem. All the rest immediately asked him (quotation): “Which bloody language are you speaking?” The explanation was: I did not know right stressing and softening in English words at all, and my brain was “open” for any variant of pronunciation. At that time I did not know “South African English” as well yet. However, today I can not understand already all the friends and relatives of my sister in USA; she has to translate for me almost each of their phrases. This is happening because I got used to “Canadian English”. By the way, one famous American actress wrote in her CV: Foreign Languages  - English but very poor.

There is no one reason to be arrogant about these tiny “degrees” of difference: try to exaggerate them, or cancel them at all – and your music will be ugly, boring, dead. It is not easy, it is very-very difficult to catch and analyze these differences without special training. Try, please to write down the exact “temperature” of the first notes of “Fur Elise” that I attached here. I am sure: many will give up. However, there is no way around this problem. We have to know exactly: what to do, if we want to be successful in any business, especially in music. 

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin

[counterpoint]

I have understood that you have no problem in controlling your dynamics (I wish to say the same about myself and my students but have no reason for such a statement. I, and all my students, of course,  have a lot of problems with dynamics. And the more of them we solve - the more others we see behind solved ones. This is my reason of being here).

Well, greatest part of learning a new piece is finding out adequate dynamics (which include microdynamics) and timing. But I would not say, thats a "problem". It's part of the fun learning a new piece.

I am specializing not in Dynamics but in "Microdynamics". I want to know relations between any pair of neghboring notes: which of them is louder or softer in comparison to the next and previous ones. If we will compare our notes with shingles on the roof - I want to know exactly: which side of each shingle should be "above" and which side should be "under". You know that  roof will be leaking if order of these "over" and "under" is wrong. Exactly the same we can see/hear in music: music is ugly and boring, if wrong notes are stressed or softened.

Why pairs of notes? Most musical motives/phrases consist of more than 2 notes. And taking your image of shingles on the roof: I would prefer to use flexible rubber-shingles, which adapt automatically to the requirements.

If you do not see any problem for you on this field, tell me, please about the first 20 notes of "Fur Elise": which one of these 20 do you stress and which one do you soften? I will even more appreciate if you will tell me the same about first 20 notes in my recording that I attached here. In this case I will be able to compare your version with the another one that is in my head.

I'm wondering, if you really want to play a piece exactly the same, every time you play it.
That's a horrible idea to me. And then these 20 notes will be repeated while playing the complete piece many, many times. Do I want to hear that special motive every time in the same accentuation? No!

Okay, considering how to play the beginning of "Für Elise", there are some thoughts,
speaking of the first 9 notes:

is it one single motive, or is there a (virtual) break after the 5th note? I tend to the second.
We have a (slow) trill and a 4-note-motive. In this 4-note motive the 2nd and the 4th note are accented. The trill will begin with an accent in my opinion (contrary to how you do play it).

The continuation (left hand/right hand):  here we have arpeggios, which are played with crescendo to the highest note (no accentuation of notes in between these arpeggios).
The repetition of the trill now with octave jump at the beginning: here the lower note of the octave is accentuated.

That's how I would play it, but I will make small changes of rubato and/or contrary accentuation each time, I play the music anyway.

"Our Teachers" tought us right notes and more/less right timing. However, they usually did not know the way to correct bad phrasing and wrong stressing and softenning of the notes.

I had teachers, who were very accurate in the respect of phrasing/dynamics/timing (and fingering too). Often I was not really convinced of what they suggested, but it gave me the awareness how important these things are.

As far as know, only method "play like I play" was used.

That's not true for me.

But it seems, that your actual method is just this.


Seems to become an interesting discussion, I'm curious hearing your reply.

[piano121]

About the Pour Elise, it´s nice some one have the corage to post it after all. There is so much prejudice against this piece. Shure, thousants of students have beeing playng this badly, but any way It´s a lovely piece when is well played.

Overall, I like you interpretation of this music, my only complaint, is about the tird section. IMO you start it way to furious in the firts note, already Forte, so you lost the feeling of crescendo at the progression of that part. Other than that it´s very nice, specially this first section.

[vladimirdounin]

quote author=counterpoint link=topic=21780.msg244224#msg244224 date=1165052137
Well, greatest part of learning a new piece is finding out adequate dynamics (which include microdynamics) and timing. But I would not say, thats a "problem". It's part of the fun learning a new piece.


ANSWER
For me "fun" is music that sounds enjoably. However as long as it sounds irritating or simply disgusting - this is still "a problem" in my opinion.


QUOTE

Why pairs of notes? Most musical motives/phrases consist of more than 2 notes. And taking your image of shingles on the roof: I would prefer to use flexible rubber-shingles, which adapt automatically to the requirements.


ANSWER

1. Let us take such an example: If you asked my help in your bad relations with your neighbors and I knew that you were living in #23 Green Avenue, then I will negotiate with # 21 and #25 and try to fix your problem between "PAIR 21/23" or between "PAIR 23/25". It is very unlikely that my focus on #197 or # 11 could be productive in this case (I mean, that all houses on your side of Green Avenue had odd numbers).

2. Put your imaginary flexible rubber-shingles on the roof in such a way that the top part of each shingle is "over" ( not "under") the bottom part of the shingles in the next (in "UP" direction) row  and your house will be full of rain. Put "under" - and live "dry" in this case.

QUOTE

I'm wondering, if you really want to play a piece exactly the same, every time you play it.
That's a horrible idea to me. And then these 20 notes will be repeated while playing the complete piece many, many times. Do I want to hear that special motive every time in the same accentuation? No!


ANSWER

Would you like to hear from me even one  single time accentuation like " i AM li-VING in TO-ron TO"
or "pa-RYS is A ve - RY beau -TI -ful CA-pi-TAL of France" etc. I am tired of listening even from CDs and Broadcasting the same accentuations in music (it is questionable definition of this noise, of course). I prefer to use right stressing and softening "every time I play it"


QUOTE
Okay, considering how to play the beginning of "Für Elise", there are some thoughts,
speaking of the first 9 notes:

is it one single motive, or is there a (virtual) break after the 5th note? I tend to the second.
We have a (slow) trill and a 4-note-motive. In this 4-note motive the 2nd and the 4th note are accented. The trill will begin with an accent in my opinion (contrary to how you do play it).

The continuation (left hand/right hand):  here we have arpeggios, which are played with crescendo to the highest note (no accentuation of notes in between these arpeggios).
The repetition of the trill now with octave jump at the beginning: here the lower note of the octave is accentuated.

That's how I would play it, but I will make small changes of rubato and/or contrary accentuation each time, I play the music anyway.

ANSWER

Let us give your description of your way to play these first 9 notes of "Fur Elise" to my students, and my:

E-  D# +   E   D+  E  B-  D  C+  A 

 we will give to your students. Let us compare then: your or my instruction will be understood and fulfilled more accurately. Let us compare the lengths of our instructions as well.


QUOTE
I had teachers, who were very accurate in the respect of phrasing/dynamics/timing (and fingering too). Often I was not really convinced of what they suggested, but it gave me the awareness how important these things are.

ANSWER

My first instruction to new student is: do not believe anyone including myself. Because never ever your audience will say: very good pianist but he had a very bad teacher or red bad book. No way - they will say that you are bad. Do not play in the way that  did not convinced yourself. Because your audience never will believe and enjoy your music if you do not believe and enjoy.



QUOTE
That's not true for me.

But it seems, that your actual method is just this.

ANSWER

No, this impression is wrong. Never ever I say to any of my students: "Play like I play".
At the contrary: I always play for them different versions of the same sections  untill my students say: I like this one! After THEIR choice is made, I give them the shortest route to THEIR "ideal".
 


Seems to become an interesting discussion, I'm curious hearing your reply.


Vladimir Dounin

[counterpoint]

Would you like to hear from me even one  single time accentuation like " i AM li-VING in TO-ron TO"
or "pa-RYS is A ve - RY beau -TI -ful CA-pi-TAL of France" etc. I am tired of listening even from CDs and Broadcasting the same accentuations in music (it is questionable definition of this noise, of course). I prefer to use right stressing and softening "every time I play it"

Your "wrong" example sounds somewhat funny to me, since the accentuation, you give for "Für Elise" is pretty similar to it

" i AM li-VING in TO-ron TO"

E-  D#+   E   D#+  E  B-  D  C+  A


You have syncopated accents throughout these 9 notes. exept for the B D

Okay, you say, that your students are not supposed to play like you. That's great.

But why do you talk this negative about other pianists as

"I am tired of listening even from CDs and Broadcasting the same accentuations in music (it is questionable definition of this noise, of course)."

You talk like you have the key to paradise and that your students are free to play like they want. That sounds not very credible to me, I'm sorry.

[vladimirdounin]

Your "wrong" example sounds somewhat funny to me, since the accentuation, you give for "Für Elise" is pretty similar to it

" i AM li-VING in TO-ron TO"

E-  D#+   E   D#+  E  B-  D  C+  A


You have syncopated accents throughout these 9 notes. exept for the B D

Dear Counterpoint,

Yesterday I had no way to prove that you are wrong. Fortunately, a few minutes ago I read literally fantastic (for me, at least) post of Marik in "Performance" section. (About my performance of "Fur Elise"). Read it a.s.a.p., please!!!

Now I have evidence that my spelling of Notes Intensity and the real ones practically are the same.

Now you have only two options:

1st. You have to say that my way to play this melody of "Fur Elise" is disgusting for your ear and (the best variant) suggest your own, the better one (post it here, in Audition Room for comparison).

2nd. You have to admit that your "theoretical image" of this song in your head has nothing in common with the real one. That your teachers gave you wrong conception of "right accentuation". That you are teaching your students "wrong accentuation" as well.

Sorry for these words! It is not against you personally. It is a real disaster in our business. All the instructions about "wright accentuation" came from original insrtruction for Military Bands: how to play marches during parade: One - two - ONE - two- ONE - two and so on. This way to perform is excellent for illiterate soldiers recruited from their villages. From such a "performance" they can understand clearly which foot at the moment must make step on beat: LEFT - right - LEFT - right - LEFT - right with this accentuation.

However, this accentuation is at least ridiculous, more often - disgusting, if it is applied to divine melodies of Chopin, Mozart etc. 

A lot of musicians know this, often say about this but never write. Because all of them are scared of idots, who have right to dictate teachers: what to teach. (Like example, I can attach a few letters of "authorities". They in absolutely serious way "prohibit" me to teach my students to use pedal in charming sonatas by Clementi  and "Wild Rider" by Schuman. Now I have to go for their "seminars" to learn  and write down: where am I alowed and where am I prohibited to use pedal to fit their "standards").


QUOTE

You talk like you have the key to paradise and that your students are free to play like they want. That sounds not very credible to me, I'm sorry.


ANSWER

Now you have this "key to paradise" as well. Please, read recent Marik's post in Performance.
("The best way to play "Fur Elise"). Try to use it. If it will not work - post your or your students performance here and I will correct these mistakes (if any). Marik will confirm then all these corrections using his equipment.

Thanks for your very interesting objections! I am waiting for new ones.

Vladimir Dounin

 

[counterpoint]

Yesterday I had no way to prove that you are wrong. Fortunately, a few minutes ago I read literally fantastic (for me, at least) post of Marik in "Performance" section. (About my performance of "Fur Elise"). Read it a.s.a.p., please!!!

I have already read this new post of Marik. The values he got for your recording do match quite well. I never doubted this!

Now you have only two options:

1st. You have to say that my way to play this melody of "Fur Elise" is disgusting for your ear and (the best variant) suggest your own, the better one (post it here, in Audition Room for comparison).

I said already, that I liked your recording very much. But this statement does not mean, that I want to play the piece in the same way as you do. It's your way to play the piece. I play it my way. I'm quite sure, you would not like it. But for what reason should it be of any interest for me, if you like how I play the piece?

2nd. You have to admit that your "theoretical image" of this song in your head has nothing in common with the real one. That your teachers gave you wrong conception of "right accentuation". That you are teaching your students "wrong accentuation" as well.

As I said, you are not the measure, what is right or wrong for me. You don't seem to understand this!?

A lot of musicians know this, often say about this but never write. Because all of them are scared of idots, who have right to dictate teachers: what to teach. (Like example, I can attach a few letters of "authorities". They in absolutely serious way "prohibit" me to teach my students to use pedal in charming sonatas by Clementi  and "Wild Rider" by Schuman. Now I have to go for their "seminars" to learn  and write down: where am I alowed and where am I prohibited to use pedal to fit their "standards").

I don't know your situation. You are a free man in a free land. Who can force you to teach in a special form, you're not convinced of?

You talk like you have the key to paradise and that your students are free to play like they want. That sounds not very credible to me, I'm sorry.


ANSWER

Now you have this "key to paradise" as well. Please, read recent Marik's post in Performance.
("The best way to play "Fur Elise"). Try to use it. If it will not work - post your or your students performance here and I will correct these mistakes (if any). Marik will confirm then all these corrections using his equipment.

Again: I dont believe in any "best way" to play a piece of music, I only believe that there are many ways - and, as Schoenberg said: all ways lead to Rome except one: the middle way.

Thanks for your very interesting objections! I am waiting for new ones.

Thank you for your detailed and goodwilling explanations. There are some important points, where we disagree strictly, but there are also points, where we fight on the same side. Especially in the fight against alleged "authorities" 


counterpoint

[marik]

Now I have evidence that my spelling of Notes Intensity and the real ones practically are the same.
 

Dear Vladimir,

Not THAT fast, and don't get THAT excited!

Before we resume, please listen to this version and tell me what is the difference in those 21 first notes compare to your original version, esp. in regards to what you call "musicality".

Best, Mark

[counterpoint]

 FurElise2.mp3 (86.12 KB - downloaded 4 times.)


That's really cool 

[vladimirdounin]

I have already read this new post of Marik. The values he got for your recording do match quite well. I never doubted this!

Sorry, I understood you in a such way that you denied my ability to write down accurately the "temperature" exactly as it was played on piano. Thank you that you confirmed this vitally important for my method fact.  

I said already, that I liked your recording very much. But this statement does not mean, that I want to play the piece in the same way as you do. It's your way to play the piece. I play it my way. I'm quite sure, you would not like it. But for what reason should it be of any interest for me, if you like how I play the piece?

I do not think that you are right in your: "you would not like it". Everything that I know and can in music is "borrowed" from other performers and teachers, who did it differently from me but I liked their way. It is normal. Look at Seneca's letters: "Why I quote always thoughts of my enemies? - Because good thought belongs to everyone in the world. It is for each of us". Be sure vice-versa: that I will immediately "steal" from you even one single bar (of your interpretation), if it will touch my heart and soul. Like example of my borrowed from my teacher (Vladimir Nielsen, Sankt Petersburg, Russia) position on this matter, I'd  like to tell you one funny story:

I played to my teacher charming "Children Polka" by Glinka (Russian Mozart). He disliked one of themes (the whole Polka consists of popular children songs and opera themes) in my performance. He showed me the right way to play it. I liked it very much and immediately changed my mind. However, I said as an excuse, that I knew that theme as lullaby.Then I played this lullaby with the words singing to him.

I was really shocked when at another occasion my teacher disliked my "rough way" to play that theme and showed me with his own play: how it can sound amazingly beautiful  AS LULLABY. Then he even sang this lulluby to me with the words to convince me...

As I said, you are not the measure, what is right or wrong for me. You don't seem to understand this!?

I am not, music IS ! In spite of popular talking about equal value of any performance, really good  ones are out of question: which one is better. Unfortunately, they happen as rare as good books, movies, doctors, lawyers, automechanics etc. in our life. However, people never will confuse them with "fake","rubbish". (Look at my post in discussion "Cliburn - most overrated pianist in history")

This is like in math: it is possible to argue which answer is better: "5 x 5 = 21" or "5 x 5 = 29". However, anyone who had chance to know "25" never will prefer previous variants.

I don't know your situation. You are a free man in a free land. Who can force you to teach in a special form, you're not convinced of?

My situation is the same as the situation of any other person in normal totalitarian state. Only one musical institution in the whole country is allowed to take exams and judge: what is right and what is wrong. (By the way, in classically totalitarian USSR each Conservatory and University had right to take exams from the students).

If I am, for example, only the person in the country, who has right to make chairs and all the rest here are prohibited to compete with me: what can you expect from the quality of my production?

I can give you telephone number, or you can get it from Internet. You can have a great fun! Call to them and ask my question: "Guys, you printed Handel's, Mozart's , Chopine's etc. pieces in your textbook with plenty of wrong notes. They sound terribly. How can I mark these wrong notes for your examiners because my students play right notes from reliable editions?" The answer will be: "You have to play exactly, what we printed. Otherwise your students will fail their exam." Your comments???

Again: I dont believe in any "best way" to play a piece of music, I only believe that there are many ways - and, as Schoenberg said: all ways lead to Rome except one: the middle way.

Shoenberg is not my and many others' favourite. The original text "ALL ways lead to Rome" without "except" looks for me better. Let us not close any of them for anyone!

Thank you for your detailed and goodwilling explanations. There are some important points, where we disagree strictly, but there are also points, where we fight on the same side. Especially in the fight against alleged "authorities" 

Unfortunately, I am not fighter. I am rather a refugee. In unforgettable for me 1986 my immediate "authority" expressed his and other "authorities"'  concern that my income from my concerts is much higher than income of their favourites. He was very disappointed then that I refused to re-address immediately all my "invitations for concerts" to these listed by him performers.

By accident, after several weeks 3 professors of Moscow Conservatory: V. Gornostayeva, M.Voskresensky and V. Merzhanov executed "out of schedule inspection" of Russian pianists and found me absolutely unfit for public performances. I was deprived of my license to play concerts.
So, I had simply to change my profession.

By coincidence children of named above professors immediately got job in Moscow Philharmonics (this always was not easy even for the children of professors).

Fortunately for me, USSR did not collapse yet at that time. And I had chance to play again for "high comission" of USSR Ministry of Culture. They were surprised with the fact that "out of all the pianists of Russia only I failed my test", and were happy to say me that this time I played much better: I got license plus increase of my fee (for each concert).

As a result of a good bunch of similar stories I prefered to  be ,as you say, "a free man in a free land". By the way, you are "free man" of which country? I do not know "why?" but many of my "free" friends from different "free" countries are looking for another one.

I hope to see here your always interesting objections again!

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin

[counterpoint]

Only a short reply by me for this time:

Music is not math! In contrary: NOTATION of music derives from math, but that's only how it is written down - not was it really is. Music is feelings (of all sorts: good and bad ones), movement (dance), reflections from real life impressions and fantasy. Forcing music into mathematical rules will kill the life of music. That's what I think.

[vladimirdounin]

Dear Vladimir,

Not THAT fast, and don't get THAT excited!

Before we resume, please listen to this version and tell me what is the difference in those 21 first notes compare to your original version, esp. in regards to what you call "musicality".

Best, Mark

You are right, like always Marik. I said exactly the same words to myself already and had very serious reason for this "self-criticism": I lost $100 for lack of attention and "not THAT fast" on the road, thinking exactly about your information.

I listened to your version of "Fur Elise". Unfortunately, I could not ask your recording to play slower: normal and the best way to check "temperature". Interesting, that all bad pianists are absolutely not able to play slow. Good performance is still good in any tempo, even in 1/4 of usual ( slower is the zone of absurdity, of course).

Something wrong was with the very first note, you explained something already on that topic in your post in "Performance". So, I can not estimate the "temperature" of this note due to technical disturbances.
The rest sound to me as:


E? D# -    E+ D#-  E+ B-- D+ C - A++    C- E+ A- B++   E- G#+ B- C++  

I can guess that you are going to say that this version  belongs to somebody  very famous, whose "musicality" is confirmed by numerous "voices of media". It can happen easily. I have seen on the walls of one concert hall articles about 17 pianists that played there. Somebody highlighted the same words about each of these 17: "He is undoubtedly a king of all pianists of the planet and the best out of all living  nowadays performers" (Sorry for my English, I quote from memory).

Music is story telling. If I do not know the whole story - I can not judge the first words of this story. My personal example: I worked at Opera Theatre at my 16 (rehearsal pianist), and always listened to all performances using my position. I always enjoyed exept one absolutely disgusting misical. I left and went at home instead because of the ubsolutely unprofessional way to sing of soprano. She obviously could not even speak normally and disappointed me completely. Do you know what it was? "My Fair Lady" and soprano had to be so bad at the beginning.  

So there is no way to discuss the musicality of these 21 note without the whole picture.

However, let us imagine that I listened to the whole piece and found that I don't like it in spite of famous performer. What then?

I always teach my students to ask themselves: is this performance good BECAUSE of this  or IN SPITE of this. Nobody is perfect. Pianist "who never played lie" - our beloved Gilels recorded the 2nd Concerto by Saint-Sans (I forgot exact spelling) with ridiculous mistake in the 1st movement. He confused in all these repeated chords quarter rest with eighth rest (French composers prefered to use "mirrored" eighth rest instead of usual spelling of quarter rest). Nobody had chick to correct him. Is he great "because" of this obvious mistake or "in spite"?

To judge musicality objectively I prefer such a technology: I play or make recording of the same sections of music and give them for comparison to as many different people as possible. Really good version always win (whoever you ask - it does not depend on age, profession, level of education and erudition etc. Music exists not for professionals but for anyone in the world). If I have only some balance of voices - then both variants are bad.

Yours Sincerely,

Vladimir Dounin
                  

[vladimirdounin]

Dear Vladimir,

Not THAT fast, and don't get THAT excited!

Before we resume, please listen to this version and tell me what is the difference in those 21 first notes compare to your original version, esp. in regards to what you call "musicality".

Best, Mark

Dear Marik,

(repeated text: the 1st version disappeared for good after "post" button was pressed)

You are right, like always. Exactly the same words I said to myself already even before you said them. I lost $100 for lack of attention on the road and for “not THAT fast” exactly, when I was thinking about “your numbers”. (You can see, btw, that my fully respected opponent Counterpoint confirmed satisfying accuracy of my notation. Do you still have doubt about this?)

Unfortunately, I could not ask your recording to play slower: the best way to analyze “temperature”. It is quite interesting, btw, that all the bad pianists absolutely can not play in a slow tempo, only fast. This is a quite reliable criteria: if this “temperature” sounds still good or not in ½  or even in 1/4 of  normal tempo?

To me it sounds like:

E? (unclear) D# -    E+ D# - E+ B- - D+  C -  A++   C- E+ A- B++   E- G#+ B- C++    

In old good times, when days were much longer than 24hours, I played chess. So I can expect your next “move”: this recording belongs to someone of “the greatest pianists of all contemporary living”, “king of all pianist of all times” etc , famous with his exceptionally “musicality”.

Music is story telling. I can not evaluate performance of the very first notes, if I did not hear the whole story. For example, I worked as rehearsal pianist at opera at my 16. I enjoyed to listen to all productions of this excellent, internationally recognized  Opera and Ballet Theatre (Kazan, Tatarstan). However, I left after very first 20 minutes of some musical because its central character (soprano) obviously couldn’t sing and even speak properly. Later I got known that I disliked “My Fair Lady” and soprano had to be so bad at the beginning.    

Let us imagine that I listened to your recording in whole and still disliked it. What then: does it prove that I am stupid and this performance is great?
I always teach my students to ask themselves: is this guy or performance good BECAUSE of this , or IN SPITE of this?
Our (by you and me) beloved Gilels recorded the 2nd Concerto by Saint-Sans (I am not sure about the spelling) with ridiculous mistake. In the 1st movement he miscounted all the chords, because he considered all the quarter rest the eighth ones. French composers prefer “mirrored eighth rest  “ to the usual for us “normal” spelling of quarter rest. Is he great in this concerto “because” or “in spite” of  this obvious failure?

If  I was in a real need for reliable judgment about “musicality”, I’d  prefer a simple test: I play or make recording of two identical section of the same piece and give them for listening and comparison to as many people as possible. If one of them is really good – choices “pro” of our jurors are practically the same. If I have only some certain balance of opinions – both are not the best. (Age, gender, profession, education, erudition etc. of listeners do not matter. Music exists not for professionals, but for anyone in the world).

With my best wishes,
Vladimir Dounin.

[marik]

The rest sound to me as:


E? D# -    E+ D#-  E+ B-- D+ C - A++    C- E+ A- B++   E- G#+ B- C++  

I can guess that you are going to say that this version  belongs to somebody  very famous, whose "musicality" is confirmed by numerous "voices of media".

 
Yes, the performer is Vladimir Dounin.
Yep, it is your recording (a little bit modified). I am wondering why there is such a difference in the notes "temperature"?
Listen to them again carefully and compare differences and tell me if you notice any. Do you really hear any change in "musicality" of the performance?

[vladimirdounin]

Yes, the performer is Vladimir Dounin.
Yep, it is your recording (a little bit modified). I am wondering why there is such a difference in the notes "temperature"?
Listen to them again carefully and compare differences and tell me if you notice any. Do you really hear any change in "musicality" of the performance?

Do you want to say that you did the same, absolutely even "temperature" for all of these notes?  I will ask my students to listen to your recording. It is interesting for myself: what they will say? What they will hear?
I still hear the same that I printed in spite of listening another 10 times in a row.

From my very first post here I am asking: if someone can suggest way to measure Notes Intensities electronically, with reliable result. I asked "Yamaha" to give me their codes to see Notes Intensities from their Disklaviers printed on the paper. However, nobody wants to understand importance of this information for every pianist.

We can not discuss "musicality" without clear definition: what exactly do you mean saying this word?

All the best,

Vladimir

[marik]

Do you want to say that you did the same, absolutely even "temperature" for all of these notes?  I will ask my students to listen to your recording. It is interesting for myself: what they will say? What they will hear?
I still hear the same that I printed in spite of listening another 10 times in a row.

No, the "temperature" is not absolutely even. I ran it through a compressor, which much evened out it, though.
Here are new values. For illustrative purposes I put them next to original ones:

E-   1.3—1.3
D# -4.7---4.6
E ---5.3---4.8
D#--7.3---5.2
E----3.8---3.7
B----7.3—5.4
D----7.8---5.2
C----9.8---6.7
A----7.6---5.7    Abass
               Ebass---3.6---4.7
               Abass---3.3---3.7
C----5.0---4.7
E----8.6---6.6
A---11.5---7.6
B-----9.4---6.0     Ebass
      Ebass---4.8—4.0
      G#bass-3.8—3.5
E---7.8---6.4
G#--6.2---5.4
B----8.8---6.4
C----7.8---5.4

From my very first post here I am asking: if someone can suggest way to measure Notes Intensities electronically, with reliable result.

I think I have already posted somewhere in details as for how you can do it.

Best, Mark