Beethoven Sonata Op.28 'Pastorale' mvt.IV

[phil13]

This topic concerns the 4th mvt. coda, Piu Alllegro quasi Presto.

I've now been practicing this particular passage (and the whole mvt. in general) for about 2 months and I'm still having problems getting my  right hand to move in the right way. The wrist motions are there, the arm moves, but the fingers...unless it's warm inside, I have difficulty playing the runs effortlessly. Usually, I am not bothered by cold fingers except at the beginning of a practice session- they warm up within about 45 minutes to an hour. However, even after that- even after a day like today, where I had already practiced for nearly 5 hours before working on this passage, they feel stiff when executing the 16ths, as if they were still cold.

I have this sonata programmed for a recital in almost exactly one month. This is the last problem left in the entire thing for me. Does anybody with experience playing this passage have some good advice? Am I not moving my fingers correctly? Does the problem lie elsewhere?

To anybody who responds, thank you.

Phil

[cmg]

This Beethoven coda is particularly problematical.  Without watching you play it, I can't say if you are approaching it in a counterproductive way, technically speaking.  Tension, of course, being the biggest culprit. 

If you have no problems with the rest of the sonata, then, you can rest assured that it's this coda that we ALL have problems with.  It's "fingery" and awkward.  Beethoven at his most irritating, in my opinion.

Practice as slow as you can stand it without screaming.  I mean really pull it back in tempo for a week or so.  Really focus on relaxing and get the memory tight.  Aim for a performance tempo under what you'd ideally like.  With nerves, believe me, you'll hit the right tempo.  Think of this coda as slower than you'd like to play it.  That's what worked for me.

Don't worry.  You'll nail it.  Just SLOW practice from here on out. 

[pianistimo]

dear phil13,

imo, one of the problems in playing things very very fast - is the lack of repeating similar fingerings.  if you cannot seem to remember the always changing ones in the verlag edition - try this one!  it's mine.

(i did my own for parts of the waldstein, too, and it made things MUCH easier)

ok. here's my idea (you can take it or leave it):

when you get to the last note of the second measure (of the piu allegro quasi presto) use your (rh) 2 finger on the last note (F#).  on the next measure use 1 on the E-natural.  this sets you up to use 3 on the D.  on the second BEAT of the third measure try 3 on the C#.  this leaves you with 1 on the A#.  slide from the A# up to the B with your thumb.  do the same on the F# in the next measure (which moves to the G) by using 3 on the A-natural, 2 on the G, and 1 on the F#. 

these little slides from black to white can be done.  it's just a little more unusual.

or, if you do as cmg says - you'll probably learn it over time.  it's just that certain fingerings 'fit' ones fingers sometimes.  you can confirm this useage of 1 on the F# is OK by it's obvious necessity at measure 13 to lead into the next passage. 

the only thing you cannot do as easily here is move from a white note to a sharped note using thumb to thumb.  thus - the only fingering i see here that works oppositely is from the G to the F# in several measures  (where i use 1 to 2 finger - in those cases - crossing the 2 over the thumb and back to the note just above - the A - as with measures 10, 12, 13).

[pianistimo]

ps  in measures 10, 12, 13  - you can use the complete fingering 2, 1, 2, 3, 5... for the arpeggio going up on the second beat.  make the top note (A) a bit staccato on measures 12 and 13 - so you can use your thumb on the F# for the last parts that lead to the end.

for instance, the complete rh fingering for measure 13 would be:

(one note before is 1 on F#) then on A - 43215121235 - 1...

[phil13]

Thanks for your help, both of you.

I tried the black-white slides and they feel uncomfortable, so I'm sticking to the fingering I already have, which is:

32 / 123252 432151 / 432151 321253 / 212151 312151 / 432151 212354

I've practiced it slowly, and can now play it with complete control at about q. = 100. What do you think would be a good performance tempo for the coda?

Phil

[kd]

What do you think would be a good performance tempo for the coda?

I would say 104-108. Obviously it has to be audibly faster than the whole Rondo, which I suppose you take at 80-84. But I don't like too fast Beethoven (surely you know numerous performances of Moonlight 3rd at 200 or more just to show off skills, which is not a good thing you can do with Beethoven sonatas).
My rule is: I record myself and check if I can hear every note quite clearly (of course knowing which notes should be out there and which shouldn't). If not, that probably means I'm playing too fast. That was a mistake I made with Op. 2/3 1st movement. It took me a long long time to learn to play it very fast (160 or so), and then I found out I don't like it that way. Now I wouldn't go beyond 144.
Tell me if I'm reasonable.
Good luck with your performance.

[phil13]

Actually, just a bit faster than that. I take the Rondo at about 84-88.

I suppose 108 would be appropriate for the coda, then.

Phil

[kd]

Actually, just a bit faster than that. I take the Rondo at about 84-88.

I suppose 108 would be appropriate for the coda, then.

It's perfectly fine. But remember not to get too excited about the coda while performing it in public or you'll easily mess it up. There's a surprisingly huge difference between being able to play a passage flawlessly when it's just an excerpt and when it's the climax.

Are you planning to post the whole piece here?

[phil13]

Depends how I play it. The recital is an hour and a half long, so if I don't post it I will post something else.

Phil

[kd]

Depends how I play it.

And what's the answer?

if I don't post it I will post something else.

OK, waiting for that...

[phil13]

I played it fine, though a little too timidly for the Steinway I was playing on. Unfortunately, there is no recording because, apparently, the CD I recieved from the processing does not work on a normal CD player, nor does it work on my computer. Which really irritates me, because overall most of the pieces were played really well, and I would have liked to share it here. 

Phil