Why should younger people play slow pieces and be criticised for playing fast pi

[opus10no2]

eces?

A pianist's athletic ability only lasts so long, so while we have the ability to play fast, why don't we?
Why dont we leave the less mechanically demanding pieces until we are older?

Of course every pianist should have a balanced repertoire, but why should anyone be criticised for doing something while it lasts?

[counterpoint]

Did anyone say, younger people should not play fast pieces?   

There's only one problem: when people think, the fastest pianist is also the best pianist.

It's fine to play fast, but there is much more, that a pianist has to understand and to work on as only tempo.

[opus10no2]

Actually, since there is no real objectively definable way to tell who the best pianist other than raw tangible facts - it is actually logical to say that in a purely physical way, departed from music, the fastest pianist IS the best pianist.

The point is, there is slow and less physically demanding repertoire(mozart etc), and I think these, for the most part, should be left till older age.

Sadly there is also a trend that when people grow old, their tastes become more conservative and they prefer calmer music, which ties in well with this.

[mad_max2024]

If I like slow music, I'll play slow music
No matter how fast I can play...

Why on earth would I wait until I get older to play slowly?

[opus10no2]

Well, that's understandable, some people are born slow.

[ramseytheii]

I don't know who is doing this imaginary criticism.  You are just setting up a straw man.  People love it when young 'uns play fast.  Anyways any great pianist should be able to play anything convincingly, and Garrick Ohlsson said this.  He said when he was young he didn't "understand" slow music, and always skipped the slow movements of concerti.  He said he became a much better pianist when he learnt to play slow, as well as he did fast.

Nobody is opposed to playing fast - it is the people who are opposed to play slow that are the problem.

Walter Ramsey

[liszt-essence]

A pianist's athletic ability only lasts so long, so while we have the ability to play fast, why don't we?

Who says we don't

Of course every pianist should have a balanced repertoire, but why should anyone be criticised for doing something while it lasts?

Who is being criticised for what?

[mad_max2024]

Well, that's understandable, some people are born slow.

Actually all people are born slow, unless you came out of your mother at supersonic speed

Still, your argument is flawed
People should play whatever music they like, be it fast or slow
Life is too short to waste time in music we are not interested in
And noone criticises you for playing fast music as far as I know, most people are just not interested in childish displays of virility

[pianistimo]

if you choose to play fast or slow pieces when you are young OR older - what's the difference.  i don't think athletic ability deteriorates as one gets older.  i can play way faster now - because i've learned to relax more.  also, mental blocks can keep anyone from playing fast. 

[opus10no2]

I like a huge amount of fast music, and a great amount of slow music actually.

But i prioritise the faster pieces primarily, because I can play them better while I'm young.

Like in sports - footballers play until their peak has passed, then many become coaches and concentrate on the mental aspect as opposed to the physical.

[cygnusdei]

Tempo is all relative. The first Paganini Etude in G minor (S141) is Andante!

[ramseytheii]

Tempo is all relative. The first Paganini Etude in G minor (S141) is Andante!

Of course the question with tempo markings is always, "What" is that tempo?  In the first Paganini etude an "andante" quarter note will create a very, very fast arpeggio sequence.   And in the "Etude," "non troppo lento" doesn't mean 64th note non troppo lento, but the eighth notes.

Walter Ramsey

[chromatickler]

i don't think athletic ability deteriorates as one gets older.  i can play way faster now

ahahahahahahah 

[pianistimo]

what's so funny?  ask me to play the brahms paganini variations.  i'll work on them for a week and play them fast at the end of the week.  you want fast.  i'll play it fast.  i have athleticism, speed, and raw determination that is unequalled for my age among other females.  (brag brag)  well, among the ones that live in my area.  i'm sure if i went to some competition - i'd readily agree that the 23 year olds are unbeatable.  but, hey - give me someone my own age.  i'll whip um.  or at least keep up with them.

let me tell you something, honestly, though.  the performances that were my best were neither too fast or too slow.  a sort of medium fast.  my very best performance was saint-saens allegro appassionata.  there are places it sort of speeds up and slows down - but what i think was effective was not the speed itself per se - but a sort of 'inspiration' that made the piece entirely 'whole' and connected.  sometimes you hear fast - but not really interesting.  you know what i mean?!  fast playing isn't a means to itself - but it can be an effective means if you can plan ahead for those little 'emergencies' - like a wrong note here or a substitute fingering at the last minute - and keep on going and keep the flow. 

ps if i try i can play a chopin etude for you, too.  i sort of put those on the back burner because my first love is more music like schumann and macdowell and those poetic composers that followed poems and liked to create imagery.  also, i tended for many years to focus on beethoven.  now, my facination for him is still there - but am attempting to branch out more.  barber, poulenc, and faure are very interesting to me. 

[danny elfboy]

I've never heard this criticism before and seems like nonsense to me
I think such thinking is the clear result of the narrow minded ways people are trained in music
For example when a more "holistic" approach is used with music and piano education from the first day of lessons not only the mental barrier of speed is not even an issue but it's not even an issue whether what you play is slow or fast ... which doesn't determine the quality of a piece

I don't agree at all that the fastest pianist is the best pianist
What nonsense. Even from a purely technical point of view speed is not the hardest technical aspect to master. You can easily have a very bad pianist that can play faster than others.
Fortunately there's less superficial and shallow-minded pianists that have no problems with playing very slow pieces and putting their effort on playing them well. I know students who passed conservatory auditions tests by playing Satie Gymnopedies winning against students playing Gaspard de La Nuit because althought Gymnopedies are technically very slow and kind of easy it's the musicaly, accuracy and touch and matters

It's also time we realize that age doesn't determine anything. Let's save those stereotypes for Silly tv series. In the real world age doesn't determine knowledge, maturity, artistic sensitivity, understanding, empathy, deepness. In the real worlds there are thousands of 40 year old less mature than many 12 year old and thousands of parents less mature than their children and thousands of teachers less mature than their students.

[opus10no2]

Speed matters, live with it.

I suppose the criticism i mentioned isn't that widespread.

But consider a program like -

Chopin complete etudes

or, Liszt complete transcendental etudes

or even complete Alkan op39 or Godowsky complete studies on chopin.

These programs are predominantly fast pieces.

Personally, I would not find these programs monotonous AT ALL.


I am estimating that in my planned repertoire over the next 10 years, 90% of them are fast pieces.

What is wrong with that?

I'm leaving most of the slow stuff 'till I'm older.

I am technically VERY well endowed, and I don't want to have any regrets about not using my gift to it's fullest.

[mephisto]

No one is criticized for playing fast pieces as long as they have somewhat music content, like let us say Rach, Chop, Liszt etude etc. A program of mindless fast scales woul be fround upon. I don't think people think in terms of fast and slow pieces in the same sense as you opus10no2, they think in terms of music.

No one thinks that the fast movements of sonatas have lesser value than the slow movements.

[danny elfboy]

Speed matters, live with it.

I suppose the criticism i mentioned isn't that widespread.

But consider a program like -

Chopin complete etudes

or, Liszt complete transcendental etudes

or even complete Alkan op39 or Godowsky complete studies on chopin.

These programs are predominantly fast pieces.

Personally, I would not find these programs monotonous AT ALL.


I am estimating that in my planned repertoire over the next 10 years, 90% of them are fast pieces.

What is wrong with that?

I'm leaving most of the slow stuff 'till I'm older.

I am technically VERY well endowed, and I don't want to have any regrets about not using my gift to it's fullest.

I still think it's a very shallow way of considering the whole matter
First of all I don't find slow pieces monotonous at all and would never choose what concertos to go by the speed of the piece. On the second hand the belief that we can't play technically demanding pieces with the same intensity as we age is a product of the same mindset that also produced nonsense like: you must practice everyday, load and emotional sound is produced by being tensed in the body, pianists that are small and have small hands can't play virtuoso repertory, you can't become a concert pianist if you don't start as a very young child, you must make your finger stronger and so on

They're all products of very outdated, flawed and isolated ideas, myths and beliefs
Thanks to a more holistic approach and better knowledge of physiology and neurology all of this nonsense is left to the past mythology
The truth is there are pianists who have even more stamina and technical control as they get older. The reason according to some of them is that while when you use your body in the wrong way (and 90% of pianists do) while playing you creates a progressive logoration when you play the piano respecting your anatomy and physiology piano playing not only become harmless and tensionless but also refreshing almost therapeutic for the body
Pianists have a very short time because they don't really know how to play in a way that isn't progressively destructive for the body and playing apparatus. But when piano playing is approach with a deep and holistic understand of the complex and variable nuance of sound production and body anatomy (contrary to the common superficial and plain wrong ideas many have) there are no reason why at 60 you shouldn't have the same stamina, strength, eveness, control and accuracy of a 20 years old. Even medically speaking the kind of "aging" we're used to see is just pathological and unwarranted ... in other it's accelerated aging caused by external factors. Without any tearing of the ligaments and tendons the "playing apparatus" of a pianist would start a real aging (as in progressive slowed down turnover or tissue renoval) at 80-85
Looking at the knowledge of anatomy, technique, neurology it can be said that the amount of pianist that can't play without injuring their arms, hands and body is way higher ... only that for some it happenes sooner and for others it takes time. When they become less able to play with power, control and stamina they blame age but it's actually the result of injurying and corrosive playing

[opus10no2]

ALL pianists' mechanical ability decreases when general aging sets in.

[pianistimo]

ok  we duel over the chopin etude op 10 #4 tommorrow evening.  you should have plenty of time to learn it by then - since you are so young - and i will have plenty of time to record over and over to get a halfway decent version.

(if you don't want to play that one - play a different etude...but an etude by midnight tommorrow in the audition thread or your name is mud).

[opus10no2]

If you start playing by midnight tommorow, I'd expect you to still be recording next week.

[danny elfboy]

ALL pianists' mechanical ability decreases when general aging sets in.

Black and white thinking and absolete claims are never true
It's an "it depends" matter
If you've read something about aging and population were there's no sign of degeneration even in advanced age you would know that aging is mostly controlled by free radicals or in other words oxidative stress. Oxidative stress also decrease the body ability to renew its tissue. Because literally in a matter of one year your body is completely renewed and you're like a new person anatomically wise. It is also well established that oxidative stress is not something we have no control upon but mostly influenced by external and variable factors

If I say for example that 90% of teenagers have acne in the western country I'm not implying that it must be a "natural unavoidable" fact and that isn't caused by keratinocytes proliferation and obstruction of the philosebaceous duct and impairment in zinc-α2-glycoprotein synthesis that are all effected, influence and controlled by many external and environmental factors. In other words: it depends. Living a life believing even something can be black and white is just living a flawed life and going nowehere

So to state that mechanical ability of pianists decrease with age is not saying that it happenes naturally, because observing it happening often around you TELLS YOU nothing about whether it is supposed to happen or it's just a result of body abuse
The final evidence is the many pianists that at 60 can still outperform lot of 20 years old and have the same technical abilities and control they had 30-40 years ago. This pianists have also a very deep and well-reasonad understanding of the holistic nature of piano playing and its relation with the body anatomy (which you seems to lack) Try to compete with those pianists in any kind of unbelievably fast piece and you'll see being younger won't be of help and what matter the outcome of such competition

People who ignore the process of aging and how it is influenced by external negative factors  just call "aging" what it's actually a non age related pathological progressive degeneration caused by other factors. This applies especially to ligaments and tendons and to motorcordination ... which are still very young at 60 but may just have been "consumed" by years of "wrong" and "flawed" piano playing

I also suggest you to learn something about biological age. It's a well known fact that our chronological age is irrelevant in understand our level of functioning and youth. There are biological markers that tells whether you're young or old. And there are 19 years old people that are biologically old and 90 years old people that are biologically young. Accordig to such biological markers an 80 years old may have the heart and arteries of a 15 years old and therefore be actually 15 years old as far as his/her body and biology is concerned

I suggest you to open your mind, have a less black/white mindset and put most of your efforts on understanding piano playing and musicality at a less superficial and stereotypical level. And especially to just enjoy music ... to play whetever you like.
A good pianist is the pianist who can make Twinkle twinkle little start memorable not that one that just show off presumptuously how technically good he is. In fact if your recitals and concertos will be mostly of fast speed people will start to recognize a fake pattern and you'll just appear as a monothematic and self-absorbed person rather than a mature, well-rounded and eclectic talented musician

[opus10no2]

Watch Richter's 10/4 , then watch his old age 25/11.

'nuff said.

[danny elfboy]

Watch Richter's 10/4 , then watch his old age 25/11.

'nuff said.

Nonsense
You can't extrapolate one example and make an universal rule out of it
As I said since what happens around us is rarely an avoidable product of nature but the result of external and environmental factor the MERE act of seeing something happen doesn't tell you nothing about whether should happen to everyone and it's a natural event

To make you an example. I trained certified in Alexander Technique.
It was a fact that with age the vertebral discs just become thinner and thinner and compress each other creating unavoidable back pain and less mobility. It was thought to be an age related condition

Alexander showed that when people use their body in the right manner than means avoiding unecessary muscular tension and keeping the most optimal skeletal alignment in everything they do the vertebras doesn't scratch one against the other as the weight is directed towards the sacrum through the center of the spine and not through the back zone.
This is just one of the many examples where somethig which we see happening in many people because all of them have wrong body usage and bad habits is considered "natural"

The decline of technical ability at the piano is one of them.
It's the subtle result of flawed piano technique that 90% of pianist suffer from but that a pianist that really knows his instrument and body in an holistic way (hence avoiding muscular tension while maintaining perfect skeletal alignment and taking advantage of gravity) will never suffer from, pianists that are physically refreshed and renewed by piano playing and not consumed.

As someone would say just because 90% of pianist are alien to this possibility it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Also, I would worry about the artistic consequences of your strange choice
If someone will ever detect in your programs the artificial focus on fast pieces at the expense of musical content rich slower speed pieces just because you want to show off you'll never be taken seriously again and any kind of professionalism and credibility you have will go down the w.c.

Being a good musician is also imo a matter of sacrificing.
A good musician must think of the music, must feel like a humble slave and mean of the music itself and any presumptuos need to show off and feel great and good at the expense of music should be abandoned. That applies to composers too. A self-absorbed manneristic and plain arrogant composer is not a musician ... just a charlatan. A real musician loves music so much that he's not afraid to become an humble and little servant of music.
Showing off is not music making and works better for the circus

[pianistimo]

i'm attempting to post the entire paginini variations tonight (abeit digitally enhanced 200%).  just posted the third variation.  now, i'm going back for the beginning of the piece.  will record later.
everyone is asking for dinner- we're going out for a bit.

[opus10no2]

Nonsense
You can't extrapolate one example and make an universal rule out of it
As I said since what happens around us is rarely an avoidable product of nature but the result of external and environmental factor the MERE act of seeing something happen doesn't tell you nothing about whether should happen to everyone and it's a natural event

To make you an example. I trained certified in Alexander Technique.
It was a fact that with age the vertebral discs just become thinner and thinner and compress each other creating unavoidable back pain and less mobility. It was thought to be an age related condition

Alexander showed that when people use their body in the right manner than means avoiding unecessary muscular tension and keeping the most optimal skeletal alignment in everything they do the vertebras doesn't scratch one against the other as the weight is directed towards the sacrum through the center of the spine and not through the back zone.
This is just one of the many examples where somethig which we see happening in many people because all of them have wrong body usage and bad habits is considered "natural"

The decline of technical ability at the piano is one of them.
It's the subtle result of flawed piano technique that 90% of pianist suffer from but that a pianist that really knows his instrument and body in an holistic way (hence avoiding muscular tension while maintaining perfect skeletal alignment and taking advantage of gravity) will never suffer from, pianists that are physically refreshed and renewed by piano playing and not consumed.

As someone would say just because 90% of pianist are alien to this possibility it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Also, I would worry about the artistic consequences of your strange choice
If someone will ever detect in your programs the artificial focus on fast pieces at the expense of musical content rich slower speed pieces just because you want to show off you'll never be taken seriously again and any kind of professionalism and credibility you have will go down the w.c.

Being a good musician is also imo a matter of sacrificing.
A good musician must think of the music, must feel like a humble slave and mean of the music itself and any presumptuos need to show off and feel great and good at the expense of music should be abandoned. That applies to composers too. A self-absorbed manneristic and plain arrogant composer is not a musician ... just a charlatan. A real musician loves music so much that he's not afraid to become an humble and little servant of music.
Showing off is not music making and works better for the circus

Olympic stadiums are build for 'showoffs'.

The mechanism of the pianist is a form of athleticism....relaxing and learning the most efficient motions should be used in conjunction with a good mechanism, not as an excuse for not having one.

Athleticism of all kinds decline with age, it's fact....

[thalbergmad]

Athleticism of all kinds decline with age, it's fact....

Well, I doubt if Carl Lewis can still do a sub 10 sec 100 metre, Sergie Bubka would struggle to clear 20 foot nowadays and Roger Bannister would do well to do a 10 minute mile.

What you are saying is undoubtedly true, but surely with a pianist the decline is far less noticable.

Thal

[opus10no2]

Less noticable , yes, but notice that in Cziffra's prime he played 10/4 in around 1:40.
In his old age, he had noticably less speed, and played it in around 2 minutes on a good day.

The point is, that if a pianist is serious about setting records and proving he/she has the best technique, they better do it in their absolute prime, and have their main focus on repertoire which displays this ability.

[danny elfboy]

Olympic stadiums are build for 'showoffs'.

The mechanism of the pianist is a form of athleticism....relaxing and learning the most efficient motions should be used in conjunction with a good mechanism, not as an excuse for not having one.

Athleticism of all kinds decline with age, it's fact....

For those who have flawed piano technique it is
But since most of the work is done by gravity and muscle contraction is minimal and last less than 1 millisecond there's actually no correlation between the muscle efforts of athletes and the effortless gravity-based playing of piano

Since the gravity always works the same whether we're young or old and the muscle contraction needed to play is so minimal that no amount of muscle strength is required and even a starving castaway that has waster 40% of his muscle tissue would able to activate ...  only unsound technique can lead to the loss of functionality and technical mastery ... good technique actually (because there's no real muscle effort and perfect skeletal alignment) would actually renew and rejuvenate the playing apparatus of a pianist

[thalbergmad]

Less noticable , yes, but notice that in Cziffra's prime he played 10/4 in around 1:40.
In his old age, he had noticably less speed, and played it in around 2 minutes on a good day.

I wonder if he could, but just did not want to

Thal

[opus10no2]

I wonder if he could, but just did not want to

Thal

Not likely, there is notably less articulation and evenness in his runs as he got older too.

Still a great pianist.

[chromatickler]

For those who have flawed piano technique it is
But since most of the work is done by gravity and muscle contraction is minimal and last less than 1 millisecond there's actually no correlation between the muscle efforts of athletes and the effortless gravity-based playing of piano

Since the gravity always works the same whether we're young or old and the muscle contraction needed to play is so minimal that no amount of muscle strength is required and even a starving castaway that has waster 40% of his muscle tissue would able to activate ...  only unsound technique can lead to the loss of functiona