At what point do you not need a piano teacher?

[ccnokes]

Is there a certain point when a teacher is no longer necessary?   

Also, if you have to pursue the piano on your own, what is the best approach?  Can you progress as fast?

[pianistimo]

it depends on what you want to do.  if you want to be a concert artist - you have to learn the 'tricks of the trade' - so to speak.  some do this by a lot of experimentation - and others by taking lots of piano lessons from high quality teachers.  but, it can get expensive after awhile.    maybe a compromise is to take lessons for a while and then stop and then take again when it is affordable.  i've learned so much by taking lessons again and it gave me enough ideas to work on for several years.  i'd really like piano lessons now again - but the thing is that i have children, too, so it's difficult sometimes to get away on the same day each week and have the time needed to make the lessons worth it.  also, i don't stay up at night all the time anymore.  i used to practice til late at night - but now i need sleep.

somehow, i do not think it effective to try to learn new techniques simply from internet sites.  you have to visually see a teacher play a section to assimilate the technique efficiently.  you also can get a sense of what they are saying better when you are actually at the keyboard yourself.  to see the music, to discuss the passage in depth (and not from another student), and to attempt it and see what the teacher says.  the feedback is so important.   

[molto-marcato]

< Is there a certain point when a teacher is no longer necessary? >

Probably not. I know some students, who finished their diploma and still take lessons/attend masterclasses. There might however be a point where it could be advisable to switch to another teacher.
Even if you develop your musicality and technique to a very high level, a good teacher might still be beneficial.

< Also, if you have to pursue the piano on your own, what is the best approach?  Can you progress as fast? >

No, you can't. Get a teacher!

[thalbergmad]

I think the answer is never.

No matter how good you are, you can always learn more.

Thal

[opus10no2]

It depends how autodidactic and intuitive a person you are.

It also depends on you level of passion and obsession.

A person who is truly naturally intuitive when it comes to the piano, and very passionate, a teacher isn't necessary at all.

A pianist's relationship with the piano is personal, and while teachers provide consistent results, the risk involved in the lesser success rates of self-taught pianists pay off with those few individuals who do something new and unique, which would only be stifled with most teachers.

[jeremyjchilds]

YOU ALWAYS NEED A PIANO TEACHER


There is always something to learn. If piano is a priorirty, then the extra 300 a month will not be a big deal. If piano is not a priority, then you don't need a teacher. (you don't even need to play the piano)

If you love music, and want to make music today that is better than the music that you made yesterday, then find a teacher.

[zheer]

  Playing the piano is an art, at some point once an artist has learned his craft, he/she will need time to mature  and learn to think independantly.

   if you have to pursue the piano on your own, what is the best approach?  Can you progress as fast?

   Perform from time to time, if you dont get stuck ,then carry on.

[ccnokes]

Thanks for the responses. Let me clarify my situation a bit. 

I will be going off to college this summer and while I am there I would like to pursue piano but I know for sure that for my first or two semester I won't.  And depending on how life goes and what my major is,  I may never have another piano teacher again, or at least I would be looking a couple of years out.  So not wanting my skillz to get rusty, I was wondering if there was a way to keep them polished and maybe hopefully to still progress.  There will always be a piano available for me to play while I'm at school, so that's not an issue. 

I don't have any aspirations to become a concert pianist.  Although, my mind may change as I did start playing never thinking that I'd get as far as I have already.  I would like to get to a point where I could improvise fairly well, play Rach pieces like some of his preludes (particularly op32 no5.) and Debussy's Suite Bergamasque and ballade, so in other words fairly advanced pieces but not killer.

So I guess I was hoping that there was a way that I could still practice regularly without a formal teacher and still progress and make great music. 

Any more thoughts on the matter?  Thanks

[krittyot]

When I knew I was highly gifted and that happened when I was just 3 yrs old.

[invictious]

When you can play Fur Elise, you can fire your piano teacher.






Well let's say top masters, like Horowitz, Cziffra, or Yundi, how do THEIR teacher's teach them? They can't guide them much in musically because it's their own individual musicality that makes them famous and special.
Technically speaking..I'd say they are better than the teacher..

[pianowelsh]

Interesting question.  Depends on humility level of student/artist. I know many pianists who still take lessons. I also know amateurs who think they have got their bit of paper now and thats it theres nothing more to learn.  I fundamentally believe that if a teacher has done their job properly that ultimately a student should become autonimous and able to be their own best teacher.  However this dosent mean that once you have a diploma you dont need lessons. BUT the kind of teaching DOES need to change. The student dosent need spoon-feeding. Really what they need at this point is a knowledgeable and experienced mentor - who will give honest opinions about their playing and development and point them in new directions.  More a sort of co-pilot.  I myself still have sounding sessions with a few of my old teachers and pianist friends to keep myself sharp and bounce ideas off them.  I think we find it mutually beneficial.

[avguste]

I would say you always need a teacher or at least an independent ear to listen to your playing and make comments.
It is always good to have someone else's opinion

[opus10no2]

An independant ear is absolutely unnecessary, art is personal, and any other person effecting your interpretation will be an impurification.

[pianowelsh]

well when you've figured out a way of getting your ears at the back of a large concert hall when you are playing and have conquered the majority of the piano repertoire op10/2 I would agree with you.  looking forward to the day.

[opus10no2]

Well I can always record myself and hear how things sound from the back of halls, just to please you.

[teresa_b]

There is no definite answer to this.  It depends on your goals, your degree of accomplishment, etc.   If your goal is to play "fun" stuff for yourself and friends, you don't need to continue to pay a teacher.

If you are a serious piano student, you need to keep studying with teachers--not necessarily with the same one, but best to study with several superb ones over the years.

If you have accomplished basically what you want, but still want to play seriously, keep a teacher you respect, but more as a "coach." I.E., don't take weekly lessons, but whenever you run into difficulties with some piece, or plan a performance, go have your coach listen to you and make suggestions.  This works for me, and I end up getting maybe 3 or 4 "lessons" a year.

Teresa

[rc]

I don't agree that we need to be paying a teacher forever until the day we die...

I figure at some point we can stop letting anothers experience teach us and begin to learn directly from our own experience - letting music itself be your final teacher.  This would be a natural progression for one who begins to perform regularly, doing and learning becomes the same thing.  What used to be formal teaching would become colleagues sharing ideas...

Ccnoke:  Of course you can continue to progress while your situation excludes a teacher!  It sounds like your not a beginner, you could work out problems yourself.  Maintain the discipline to practice everyday, and challenge yourself.  There's no reason to just stagnate without someone else pushing you along.

[pianowelsh]

doing it to please me would entirely defeat the point...it is for your benefit that it is helpfull to have a second opinion in the hall..not mine. As I am not your teacher there would be little point in trying to please me.

[pianowelsh]

I agree with the principle of self teaching and being autonimous - I also agree that sometimes periods without a teacher can still be fruitfull. BUT often our most efficient work and progress is under the expert ear of another teacher. As its been said at the advanced level its much more of an extra set of ears than a 'teacher' per say. Some demand payment others dont. A doctor would often continue to seek a second opinion if they were even remotely unconvinced of something...why shouldnt the pianist. We learn best from shared experience. We can only ever glean so much on our own.

[zheer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWeVFfYYm8k


    Food for thought ( educational)

[pianowelsh]

I wish we had more programmes like this Zheer...they dont get the budgets to make enough of these.

[zheer]

I wish we had more programmes like this Zheer...they dont get the budgets to make enough of these.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD2kaAUEMKc


   Here is another good one.


     
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AyRyNMgjb8
   



  About tecknique

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B2UTNE6rck


     even more.

[tds]

if needing a piano teacher here means having a weekly lesson with him/her, then i know there can be a point where you don't need a piano teacher. and it is when you are technically sufficient; when you have thorough training; and if you possess an independent mind, on top of clear artistic abilities, and receptive mind for understanding the different styles.

i play better now that i've "graduated" from the time when i did my weekly lessons with one appointed teacher at one time or another. yes, there is a stage where pianists no longer need those regular lessons as there are also reasons why it is GOOD to be faithfully on their own feet. afterall, it is what artist is all about: independent, dare to deliver all the virtues and mistakes of their own and NOT others.

having said the above, this is not to imply that having a few lessons with some great pianists/teachers, from now and then, is not important. it is, and can be necessary when it is felt that you need to widen your horizon, and deepen your understanding of different aspects of pianism, and stylistic idioms.

btw, speaking from my experience, there are a couple of things to share:

1. a transition, i.e. a period from the time you are having a teacher to a time when you are on your own, is a difficult period. often you feel lost, not knowing "which is better?", "why is this bad if it is?", "would it work if i do this?", "can i get thru it all on my own?", etc. the length of transition period differs from a person to another. it took me about two years. but the good news is that after going thru this period, you dont only feel good but you are better than ever before. you are a free man. a time to congratulate yourself? i did me.

2. i find a video camera/audio recording utility is necessary to help scrutinize my work, and work progress. video cam acts as another pair of ears and eyes. still, you are your own teacher.


my 3 cents,

tds

[clavicembalisticum]

At what point do you not need a piano teacher?

Who teaches the teacher? See the chicken - egg analogue? Just some food for thought because the "teacher" and "pupil" issue is present everywhere. I could also quote somebody who said: "Nobody can surpass their teacher(s)". I do believe that a better phrased question would be?

"At what point should(/must) you understand, provided it is possible to certify the validity of the allegation, that you have surpassed your teacher(s)?"

[pianowelsh]

Interesting??! Im not sure at the very advanced level whether its possible to say the student has surpassed the teacher in ability...one could say its more a case of specialisation at that point...the teacher may be a a Bach expert..the student may venture into Rautavaara as an area of specialism..you couldnt say the ability level is different but their interests take them in different directions..therefore the student may look for a mentor who has 'experience' in Rautavaara. I think this is really it in that a student will rarely if ever have the level of 'experience' that their teacher has...its not to say they wont be able to get through the notes as well or produce the tones colours as well as their teachers - even better perhaps BUT the teacher has a wealth of knowledge and experince that only a lot of years 'doing it!' can furnish you with..the student rarely has this luxury.  eg Vlado perlemutter...at the end of his life his playing though GOOD was not what it was in his prime...many of his students had better control and accuracy levels BUT I dont know any who would dare to say they had surpassed their teacher! They knew his vast experience and knowledge was far deeper than playing the right notes in the right time.

It should be a truely sad thing if you surpass your teacher in terms of knowledge and experience...it means the teacher has commited intellectual suicide and has ceased to learn. The teacher needs to remain actively learning ALWAYS! so that they can keep feeding the student and develop their own abilities...unfortunately many dont...this makes for a boring narrow minded teacher.

[clavicembalisticum]

It should be a truely sad thing if you surpass your teacher in terms of knowledge and experience...it means the teacher has commited intellectual suicide and has ceased to learn. The teacher needs to remain actively learning ALWAYS! so that they can keep feeding the student and develop their own abilities...unfortunately many dont...this makes for a boring narrow minded teacher.

I agree especially with the last comment. Age and experience also cultivate egos. And prejudice. There were experienced teachers that told Liszt that he could not ever play the piano in a proper way when he was young. We barely recall their names anyway.

Piano playing is performing art and it does improve with insightful criticism. Performances vary as people vary. A truly unsurpassable performance is "nearly" impossible to be cloned. For it also includes the element of personal access to what is the "truth" of what you perform. That level of "truth" is so mystical in its essence that cannot be simply passed on to another, no matter how well - intending, thorough and experienced the teacher is. To cut it short, in that level there cannot be by - comparison - learning because the standard becomes axiomatically undefinable.

In that specific case, teachers tend to be of no use. Some things have to be experienced by the self alone, in order to reach the solitude of approaching the absolute truth. It is through the variety of  these experiences of approaching that truth that there is actual progress for there is adequate learning. Real Mastery is achieved through that. And it is real mastery that creates formidable (not irreplaceable) teachers.

Formidable teachers are the ones who show you a way, not the ones who define it. And that is something that can be an initial criterion upon which decide when a teacher has an increasing amount of non - teachable things to teach. When through "your" way, the teacher's way is expanded.

[ccnokes]

If nobody ever surpassed their teacher, we would all be stuck in this never ending spiral of pianists getting worse as the generations go on. 

I agree with a lot of what has been said and I'm glad that I've gotten some great, insightful, and even philosophical input. 

I would think that to truly be an individual artist you need to pursue piano on your own at some point.  I think even subconciously we seek the approval of our teachers and we only accomplish that by complying to what they think is good playing, ie their tastes. 

I think the real question is how to go about really developing your abilities on your own.  Maybe its something only the individual can decide. 

[tds]

if needing a piano teacher here means having a weekly lesson with him/her, then i know there can be a point where you don't need a piano teacher. and it is when you are technically sufficient; when you have thorough training; and if you possess an independent mind, on top of clear artistic abilities, and receptive mind for understanding the different styles.

i play better now that i've "graduated" from the time when i did my weekly lessons with one appointed teacher at one time or another. yes, there is a stage where pianists no longer need that regular lesson as there are also reasons why it is GOOD to be faithfully on their own feet. afterall, it is what artist is all about: independent, dare to deliver all the virtues and mistakes of their own and NOT others.

having said the above, this is not to imply that having a few lessons with some great pianists/teachers, from now and then, is not important. it is, and can be necessary when it is felt that you need to widen your horizon, and deepen your understanding of different aspects of pianism, and stylistic idioms.

btw, speaking from my experience, there are a couple of things i wanna share:

1. a transition, i.e. a period from the time you are having a teacher to a time when you are on your own, is a difficult period. often you feel lost, not knowing "which is better?", "why is this bad if it is?", "would it work if i do this?", "can i get thru it all on my own?", etc. the length of transition period differs from a person to another. it took me about two years. but the good news is that after going thru this period, you dont only feel good but you are better than ever before. you are a free man. a time to congratulate yourself? i did me.

2. i find a video camera/audio recording utility is necessary to help scrutinize my work, and work progress. video cam acts as a pair of ears and eyes. still, you are your own teacher.


my 3 cents,

tds

on a larger picture,...

3. spend enough time to listen to genres other than solo piano music, i.e. symphonies, chamber music, operas, and songs.

4. try to always be receptive of art, poetry, literature and NATURE. we learn a great deal from them. personally, they have helped me understand a few important things: the synthesis, the inevitable, and the expected vs the unexpected. no one piano teacher in this world, regardless how great he might be, can replace art, poetry, literature and nature. this point can't be emphasized enough.

5. finally, piano issues alone are never enough to make a good musician. i agree with one marvelous pianist/teacher who once places a good human being factor before a good musician one . those who do not subscribe to basic humanity quality, such as generousity, honesty, big-heartedness, and other altruistic ideals must not consider themselves a musician.

no, i dont usually type very much, those who know me can testify this (except in random things which were not too serious in nature ). but this time i really wanna pull out and unfold several old, neglected pages, which i think is important. isn't there really quite a bit to venture outside those little studio rooms? for pianists, this overall quest and be-familiaring/be-becoming are as important as perhaps beginners needing their first year lessons.


hope this helps,

tds

[cmg]

Thank you, tds.  Very thoughtful and wise observations . . . I'm in full agreement with you.

I've studied with teachers ever since I've been four years old.  Finally, some years ago, I said, well, time to go solo.  Apply what you've learned.  See how all this formal education has all been processed and synthesized through your own personality.

What I discovered was just how much I had learned and how much it was an integral part of me now.  I don't really know where my best teachers begin and I leave off, which, I think, is such a great compliment to them. 

But, I still take an occasional lesson with a master pianist.  Studying a piece with a real pro who has taken the same composition before audiences time and again is invaluable.  Every truly challenging piece has its twists and turns that a seasoned performer can point out to you and help you overcome quickly.  It saves lots of practice time.  Could I solve the issues on my own?  Well, perhaps, in time.  But I like the challenge of the occasional lesson and the contact with a brilliant musical personality.

[pianowelsh]

Inspiration and genius cant be taught..only inspired. Thats how each generation reaches forward into the next because in every generation there is amazing potential.

[marik]

Is there a certain point when a teacher is no longer necessary?   

Also, if you have to pursue the piano on your own, what is the best approach?  Can you progress as fast?

It is very individual. For example there was no single piece Richter would play in the concert without bringing it to Neuhaus first, untill Neuhaus' last days.
On the other hand, Gilels did not have such need and in fact, believed his only teacher was B. Reingbald (he left her when he moved to Moscow at the age 16).

Personally, every now and then I still play for some great artists whom I trust. Not that they'd teach me how to play piano, but just to have a couple more ears from the side, have another angle of looking at things, or just talk about music with clever people.
I find it more refreshing than to fight here about "tech & mech" .

[tds]

"tech & mech"

sounds like half food, half science.

give me a tech and mech with no chicken. ohh, could you put extra tomato sauce please?

does it sound totally wierd, or it has some "flow" to it?

tds

[clavicembalisticum]

sounds like half food, half science.

Yep.

[phil39]

simple: when you are technically proficient, which can be measured by 'can you play a Chopin Etude (one of the fast opus 10 or 25 ones) in full control with no tensions and you feel relaxed and free to do what you want interpetively?'.  if you're honest with yourself you know when you are at the point when you are handling all the notes without any hint of a stuggle, and at full speed. hey presto- then you're at virtuoso standard! - and there ought to be no