Developing the 4th and 5th fingers

[virtuosic1]

Virtuosic, may I ask in which way your videos (and previously uploaded recordings) would contribute to this thread? I don't care about how fast you can play. This thread was created to generate ideas about a technical problem in piano playing, and unfortunately, only about 20% of the posts seem to discuss that.

That wasn't my intention. My intention was to assist you in your question, which I could have easily done. The arguing started when forum members decided to turn this thread into a forum for their slanderous accusations. They are the ones who decided, in true Kangaroo court manner, that I wasn't the one performing my sound files, some of which were recorded on cassette originally with obvious, prevalent room ambience. They also decided, based on these allegations, that I should not attempt to assist or elaborate further and proceeded to "shout me down" as a fake and not worthy to post anything here about technical information that you may find helpful. If you re-read the comments made to me as the thread progresses, you'll see this pattern emerge.

I won't post anything of a technical nature for now. I'll wait until I post Videos first so the geniuses can eat their own words and hopefully choke themselves on them. Then, once that's cleared up, unless I'm accused of faking videos too in almost each and every post, I'll attempt assisting you once again with sound advice that has helped most of my students and myself with technical execution for the past 35 years.

[marik]

Marik,
Good points, I would just like to add that Peter Orth in talking about Chopins etudes (in Dean Elders book "Pianists at play") says that one of the ways he usually practices this etude is with A LOT of finger pressure, slowly, forte every note. You have to be very careful when doing this of course, and some even say it is bad to practice it this way. Just wanted to mention it.

Everybody is very different and what works for one person doesn't necessarily good for another. That's why I always feel so hesitant about giving advices over internet, without actual seeing what is going on.

Yes, Richter for example, always practiced slowly, forte, and staccato. Gilels, on the other hand, mid tempo and mezzo forte. Many great pianist practice slowly and pianissimo. Some, don't practice at all... meaning, their mind is always working, they just don't have a need to sit at the piano. Feltsman is a good example, and he is always in top shape.

For me the fundamental of technique is a touch--something like balerina walking on the points, something which is in the middle of that very fine relationship between your brain and string.
In order to keep all those relationships fresh I need to practice slowly and quietly, but with with very active fingers and great deal of energy, which dissipates immediately, ones the finger touches the key-bed. It is like balerinas feel the floor.


Hopefully, it is not confusing.

Best, M

[marik]

In other words, my playing of Chopins op 10 no 2 will never get faster or more accurate?

Not true. Everything depends on you. The physical condition of your 3-4-5 won't change, but with practice, once you gain control over them, only the sky is the limit.
I always advocate the rule "hand teaches hand", meaning if something does not come out in your LH, try first to do it with your RH and analize exactly what you are doing. After that try to do EXACTLY the same, with the same feelings with your LH.
On the same manner, "fingers teach fingers", i.e. if something doesn't come out with your 3-4-5 fingers, first, try to play it with your 1-2-3, analyzing exactly all your senses, feelings in the hand, etc., and then try to do exactly the same with 3-4-5.

Best, M

[dnephi]

Who RAN from the Chat room about 3 seconds after the log showed my name!  

Actually, i initiated conversation with you, but decided to leave because you failed to respond.  I even created a special chat room where the two of us could talk.

[counterpoint]

Back to the starting question of the thread

Lately, I've devoted some of my practicing to developing and strengthening the weaker fingers, and I'm just curious about if anyone else spends time with this and if you have some useful excercises that you'd like to share.

It is not needed to strengthen the fingers. You can play perfectly well with weak fingers and you can play very uneven and bumpy with strong fingers.

Not the weak fingers are the problem, but the combination of finger, hand and arm movement which fits exactly to the passage you want to play.

[dnephi]

Orttmann says that the weight school is important, but those who advocate only that fail to deal with finger speed issues which are of importance.  I think there's some truth to that. 

[marik]

Hello Marik, if you are still around: is the piece really "finger based" - means, it's not a rolling motion (propably a combination) ? Therefore, Cortot's approach to optimize the individual finger stroke is right ?  

Daniel,

While rolling helps to some, it never worked for my hands, but I have very large ones.
I always "activate" my fingers, first. Even octaves--I need to feel 1st and 5th/4th fingers separately and independantly. After that I let my body deside the most natural way of combined fingers/hands motion.

In this etude,  my hand and fingers go together, when the hand goes evenly and linearly up and down, and fingers calmly lay on the keys, activating with very short and economical strokes.
The faster I play, the lighter and "lazier" the fingers should feel.

BTW, another method of practicing this etude, which helped to many people, esp. with smaller hands.
Our brain naturally groups this etude in "wide" position, i.e. C-G-C-E, C-G-C-E, etc.
Try to think in your mind about it regrouping in narrow positions, i.e. C, G-C-E-C, G-C-E-C, etc.
And similarly on the way down.
You even won't need to play like this later, but it can help just as a method of practicing.
And of course, any questions are always welcome.

Best, M  

[virtuosic1]

Actually, i initiated conversation with you, but decided to leave because you failed to respond.  I even created a special chat room where the two of us could talk.

My PC is from '97, a Gateway GS-450 Pentium 2, running Windows 98. It's slow as molassess in the chat room. Even when I type words in the send bar, it takes minutes sometimes for them to show up, the PC freezing until I can hit the send.

[virtuosic1]

Orttmann says that the weight school is important, but those who advocate only that fail to deal with finger speed issues which are of importance.  I think there's some truth to that. 

How unfortunate that I'm unwelcome to comment about Ortmann's ideas and anything I say will be met with adversity before it's even read and considered all the way through. Once I post videos to silence critics and trolls, and the ones that are actually adults line up to apologize, I'll publically advise them of where they can file their apologies, right before I depart permanently.

[danny elfboy]

In other words, my playing of Chopins op 10 no 2 will never get faster or more accurate?

Of course it will ... but for different reasons than many people believe
If you lacked any speed and had to build it you wouldn't be able to even play two or three notes at the fastest speed possible ... and yet even non pianists can do this
This proves the point about speed. Speed is not something we lack and need to "develop" or "aquire". Speed is something we lose and need to maintain.
The contractions, the motions, the firming you do is accumulated
You can't accumulate it in just two or three notes that's why when you play such a short amount of music your natural intrinsic speed shows up.
But you accumulate them as those 4 notes become a flow of 30, 200, 500, 1000 notes
The point about maintaining speed is "resetting" periodically
When practice is making things faster you're not actually changing anything in your physiology and are not training the hypertrophy of your muscles, you're actually training your neurological resetting ... speed being the delay between contracting and resetting
Although practice itself works in this way focusing on the actual source of improvement, speed and the sources to obtain it helps with technique and control but especially with avoiding the accumulation of tension hence pain or injuries. As someone said accumulation of tension is the most detrimental thing against speed, it works like opposite friction. After all speed in piano playing is not due to bigger forearm muscles, to switching in type of fibers, to increased upregulation of concractile receptors, to stronger ligaments and muscles or faster/stronger fingers (whatever that is supposed to mean) Because these things are not happening in relation to play playing. Again it's not even slightly comparable to the effect of running on big muscles like quadriceps.
Speed is neurological and somehow illusory since again it's not something that we should "aquire" but "preserve" as the piece progresses
We have done already enough writing, grasping, picking up in our life to have already developed muscles (we are talking about small muscles and not big ones like quadriceps) already allowing the fastest speed possible.
Endurance works by the same principle
Endurance in relation to bigger muscles is the ability to use your fuel efficiently
Endurance in small muscles and in the kind of movements involved in piano playing is a matter of preventing accumulation i.e preventing opposite friction
Endurance in relation to piano playing is the difference between a ship going with the flow or going against the flow

[dnephi]

Orttmann is considered definitive, but once again, I would have liked a response to the question, rather than the lengthy tangent which sounds so much like a bad guy's speech to the good guy before granting him a last request.  I would have certainly preferred a differing opinion than no opinion at all.

Dan

[marik]

Dear Dnephi and Virtuosic1.

It is very unfortunate you chose for your duel this very fine thread and it becomes extremely annoying for participants.
If you have something to contribute to the topic, welcome. Otherwise, could you please do all of us a huge favour and move your meaningful conversations elsewhere, i.e. create a dedicated thread, chat room, or PM, if the connections are not fast enough, or just talk over the phone.

  
No need to reply to this one.

I appreciate your understanding.

M

[Mozartian]

Not true. Everything depends on you. The physical condition of your 3-4-5 won't change, but with practice, once you gain control over them, only the sky is the limit.
I always advocate the rule "hand teaches hand", meaning if something does not come out in your LH, try first to do it with your RH and analize exactly what you are doing. After that try to do EXACTLY the same, with the same feelings with your LH.
On the same manner, "fingers teach fingers", i.e. if something doesn't come out with your 3-4-5 fingers, first, try to play it with your 1-2-3, analyzing exactly all your senses, feelings in the hand, etc., and then try to do exactly the same with 3-4-5.

Best, M

Wow, that sounds like it would really work- thanks for the tip, I'm going to try that out!

[marik]

For me the fundamental of technique is a touch--something like balerina walking on the points, something which is in the middle of that very fine relationship between your brain and string.
In order to keep all those relationships fresh I need to practice slowly and quietly, but with with very active fingers and great deal of energy, which dissipates immediately, ones the finger touches the key-bed. It is like balerinas feel the floor.

To illustrate what I mean here is a recording of IMO, utmost technical mastery, which should not neccessarily be fast.
To avoid any confusions, no it is not me playing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR6kpZzOGdo

While you are there, don't forget to hit Stravinsky-Sokolov file.

Enjoy.

[virtuosic1]

Dear Dnephi and Virtuosic1.

It is very unfortunate you chose for your duel this very fine thread and it becomes extremely annoying for participants.
If you have something to contribute to the topic, welcome. Otherwise, could you please do all of us a huge favour and move your meaningful conversations elsewhere, i.e. create a dedicated thread, chat room, or PM, if the connections are not fast enough, or just talk over the phone.

  
No need to reply to this one.

I appreciate your understanding.

M

Ironic. Haven't me not involved in a discussion on acheiving maximum technical velocity, a main pursuit of my past 45 years or so, is like asking the Devil to remain silent on a discussion about heat. 

[rc]

It's too bad you've decided to withdraw your contribution virtuosic.  I'm not too concerned what you are or aren't able to do, but I'm always glad to see someone around trying to help people with their learning.

I think more than anything it's the conceit in your claims that makes some want to challenge them.  I figured you might be used to getting that kind of response. 

[daniel patschan]

Seconded, please, come back. Some people need you here.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Since this thread was created, I have tried to apply some of the ideas and suggestions to my playing. Here is what I observed quite instantly:

First, removing tension from my fingers made me feel like I could seep up my playing almost endlessly. That is the good news. However, I also noticed that I made more mistakes. Am I erring in the opposite direction now? How can I maintain high speed AND play accurately?

A second observation relates to hand rotation. This is not in relation to Chopin's 10/1, which scares the hell out of me, more than any other etude of the set. Rather, I noticed that applying a little dose of hand-rotation vastly improved my mordents and thrills. While I was never an enthusiast of ornamentations, I am now almost looking forward to them as I play. Curious.

[virtuosic1]

[

[danny elfboy]

Since this thread was created, I have tried to apply some of the ideas and suggestions to my playing. Here is what I observed quite instantly:

First, removing tension from my fingers made me feel like I could seep up my playing almost endlessly. That is the good news. However, I also noticed that I made more mistakes. Am I erring in the opposite direction now? How can I maintain high speed AND play accurately?

Clearly your problem is that:
You need muscular contraction to play
You need your fingers to be firm not mellow ... think of like hitting a ball with a golf club
The club needs to be firm ... if it was jelly-like you would be not able to his the ball

You had problem with speed and tension because you contracted your muscles as the fingers depress the keys (hence alllowing accuracy) but didn't release the contraction aftwards hence accumulating tension and more likely to contract an opposite set of muscle before resetting the previous contraction

Now you have found a solution by removing tension ... but it seems like you removed tension by removing any contraction ... hence not firming your fingers and missing the target and loosing the accuracy

The point is that removing tension is no acquired by removing contraction but by resetting contractions periodically so that tension is not accumulated and co-contractions are avoided
Any contraction after the notes has been depressed is just useless and a waste of energy but contracted at the moment of impact with the keys is necessary to firm the fingers

Think of contracting-resetting, contracting-resetting and so on as breathing
Eventually speed is determined by the delay between contraction and release

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,24219.msg271405.html#msg271405

[rc]

Stop looking at the keyboard for starters! Seriously. Relax your playing mechanism but DON'T relax your mind. Think the notes. Know where you are going with each note, then forget about each note, forget about visual targeting and play the phrases.

Do you mean like visual targeting in the head (closed eyes imagining the keyboard), imagining the sound of the phrases, some kind of synthesis?

It's the thinking of the notes where I'm trying to find the best approach

edit:  I've just answered my question in practice - Though our hands may be trained to properly execute a passage, if our mental image of the passage isn't accurate then when we think of what we're playing it will screw up.  Eyes closed is a good way to develop this, the mind naturally wants to fill in the visual void of what's going on.

From the purely technical standpoint, what's needed is the kinesthetic feel of the passage which can be developed through drilling (to the point where it seems we can jsut shake our arms and the notes come out), and an accurate mental visualization of the notes being played on the keyboard to prevent brain farts.

I presume that as we properly take care of these details and develop confidence in them, we become more free to focus on the sound.  The whole process: kinesthetic, visual and aural becomes more fluent and natural - what we want is the synthesis.

[virtuosic1]

[

[daniel patschan]

Hello virtuosic, who, after your opinion are the pianists with the best playing mechanism (technique)today ? Propably a stupid question, but i would like to know what you think about that - regarding the fact that you can obviously play Opus 10-2 at 200/minute. I doubt that Hamelin, Libetta, Sokolov, or Volodos could do that. 

[virtuosic1]

[

[daniel patschan]

Thank you very much - i guess i will have to listen to some Tristano recordings, never heard
any of them so far. 

[virtuosic1]

[

[marik]

First, removing tension from my fingers made me feel like I could seep up my playing almost endlessly. That is the good news. However, I also noticed that I made more mistakes. Am I erring in the opposite direction now? How can I maintain high speed AND play accurately?

A second observation relates to hand rotation. This is not in relation to Chopin's 10/1, which scares the hell out of me, more than any other etude of the set. Rather, I noticed that applying a little dose of hand-rotation vastly improved my mordents and thrills. While I was never an enthusiast of ornamentations, I am now almost looking forward to them as I play. Curious.

The tension removing and "finger firmness" can be quite confusing and it takes patience and practice to find a right balance and coordination between two.
You should give a very good, energetic, but still light and short impulse into the finger. And indeed, the finger for a split moment becomes firm, but once it hits the key-bed all the energy dissipates instantly. Basically, the moment of hitting the key-bed and relaxing are so close in time that they almost become the same motion.

Re: Ornaments. You should not be scared of them, as the only way to learn how to play them is to play as much as it is possible. The hand rotation can be of great help here. Try first doing it in the air. Put your hand down hanging from the shoulder completely relaxed and then start slightly vibrating. Little by little increase the amplitude, still maintaining relaxed feel. At some point you will feel the "resonance" and everything start vibrating around 3rd finger as a center. Then try to trill with exactly the same feeling.

This vibration/resonance in fact, is one of fundamental basics of piano technique. Once you find the right "wave" together with the "feel" of the key-bed, you are the pianist. 


Best regards, M

[daniel patschan]

Marik - thank you for four suggestions on 10-1. I practised it over the weekend like you said (or at least i think i practised as you told me) and i realized an important point: the relaxation factor !!! Slowly, precisely and relaxed - that´s the way to proceed. Another thing which was very helpful to me was your advice on playing with minimal possible motion, this idea can be adapted to all playing. I don´t know who invented the old strategy of lifting the fingers as high as possible ? It´s not very use- bu painful.

[dnephi]

As you are familiar, we practice ways different from how we perform.  In the same way, we staccato in legato pieces, legato in staccato pieces, and other such things.  I was not advocating performing this etude with high finger action- just the physiological practicing.  Just like athletes have exercises based on instantaneous contraction and relaxation, so should pianists.  Thus what I said is to be seen as an exercise and a practice technique, not performance practice.

Thanks,

Dan

[danny elfboy]

As you are familiar, we practice ways different from how we perform.  In the same way, we staccato in legato pieces, legato in staccato pieces, and other such things.  I was not advocating performing this etude with high finger action- just the physiological practicing.  Just like athletes have exercises based on instantaneous contraction and relaxation, so should pianists.  Thus what I said is to be seen as an exercise and a practice technique, not performance practice.

Thanks,

Dan

I practice the way I perform
I practice everything performance speed immediately
I do this but practicing fragments small enough that even at the fastest speed possible no tension is accumulated (accumulation being a long-term process not occurring short-term)
At the end of each small fragment practice with the exact same coordination I will use for performance I bring my hands to my lap and rest totally, release any contraction and check my body for sign of disalignment and unecessary tension
The instantaneous resetting after each fragment allows me to practice instantaneous contraction and instantaneous relaxation
As I join fragments together and patchwork the piece the sensation of instantaneous contraction and relaxation practiced with rests keep underlying the piece even without the rests. In order words I've mastered very fast contractions and releases that "breath" and "flow" with the rhythm. The forearm keep resetting themselves every small amount of notes and tension accumulation becomes impossible.
But since I've already practiced and ingrained the same coordination I will use at performance I don't need lot of work to put the piece up to tempo (always meaning hitting a speed wall because slow speed practiced uses an enterely different set of coordination compared to what is necessary for high speed performance)