Developing the 4th and 5th fingers

[danny elfboy]

My muscles on the pinky side of the hand and the one surrounding my thumb are far more developed than any normal person I have the occasion to compare with, and definately more developed than me before playing piano. The strength isn't in the fingers, but in the hand muscles that make them move.

I mentioned those muscles but they don't do much regarding the kind of control I was talking about. The muscles you're talking about are implied in the movements of the thumb and the lateral stretching or spreading of the fingers. Now these musclesm are small enough to be stimulated by piano playing, althought their hypertrophy is very very limited
All the most important motions (lifting, bending, straightening, extending flexing) depends on forearm muscles some of which are closed to the wrist and someone of which are very distant from the wrist. Usually on a normal person who also write, pick up objects, grasp obejcts and so on these muscles are already developed enough and big enough so that piano playing doesn't result in any concrete hypertrophy.

Besides no motion described would somehow increase the strength of the fingers
Since the muscles are not in the fingers but either in the first phalanges or in the forearm all they do is controlling movements.

Everyone can play 3-4 notes in the fastest speed possible.
That is, we already posses all the muscle control and development to play fast and with control. What we lack is "maintaining" this control as we play way more than 4 notes and the playing goes on and on. Which is the reason why for many students the beginning of the piece is the EASIEST (even if it is technically harder) as the piece progresses playing become harder even if the piece becomes technically less demanding

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[dnephi]

Yeah. And what did you find to be "nightmarish" about this? The fact that your extremely limited knowledge didn't allow you to get you very far in trying to "one-up" me?

I'm not like anybody else, son. Everything I post about playing piano can be taken as gospel. I'm the real McCoy, and you know it, and therin lies the problem of your frustrated consternation and inabilty to elaborate on your negative comments directed towards me.

That's not the problem-the problem is that you seem like a complete phony.  Your recordings sound like they were made on a sped-up honky tonk.  Can you provide anything more concrete?  Honestly.  If you want to opinion of more esteemed pianists, I suggest dropping by here.  Let me know how many posts you get before you get banned.

Regards,

Dan

[thierry13]

The fastest playing is possible by playing at the surface of the key, eliminating any exaggerated motions.

Wich gives you a crappy sound. Yay.

[danny elfboy]

Wich gives you a crappy sound. Yay.

No he is right
It's just hard to explain in word
One common mistake of many students and pianist is using too much force or pushing too much not realizing that there's nothing to push further since the keybad is a natural limit

If the key were elastic and they would with more force overcome the keybed and go even further down excessive force would make sense. But given the the amount of weight necessary to depress a key (1.6 oz) you can really achieve a full sound without using extreme force in pushing the key down as if they could overcome their structural limit somehow

Indeeed economy of playing is one of the most important aspects while exaggerated and uneconomical motions are ones of the most common problems

[danny elfboy]

If you want to opinion of more esteemed pianists, I suggest dropping by here. 

More esteemed pianists?
How can that place have any credibility ... just read at the naive descriptions
I would be proud of being banned from such forums
Sounds like as if opus10no2 created it

[virtuosic1]

Wich gives you a crappy sound. Yay.

Congratulations! Your post has absolutely nothing to do with reality. If your intention was to sound like a dunce, you succeeded beautifully. You should really think before you post when commenting on text provided by someone who knows what they're talking about.

[virtuosic1]

More esteemed pianists?
How can that place have any credibility ... just read at the naive descriptions
I would be proud of being banned from such forums
Sounds like as if opus10no2 created it

I just looked in. What banter are they speaking over there? I saw one thread that was comprised of all 1 word posts or smileys. What is it? All kids?

[danny elfboy]

I just looked in. What banter are they speaking over there? I saw one thread that was comprised of all 1 word posts or smileys. What is it? All kids?

Don't insult 
Kids are more mature than that
If you look at the idiots in forums they are almost never kids

[virtuosic1]

That's not the problem-the problem is that you seem like a complete phony.  Your recordings sound like they were made on a sped-up honky tonk.  Can you provide anything more concrete?  Honestly.  If you want to opinion of more esteemed pianists, I suggest dropping by here.  Let me know how many posts you get before you get banned.

Regards,

Dan

More concrete? Sure I can. Send me your address and I'll send you an autographed cinder block. You can use it as a spare head. I'm quite certain that replacing your current head with it will increase your cranial capacity based on your erroneous conclusions about me, which of course you're entitled to, but in reality serve as a convenient way to explain away to yourself the things you hear in my playing that you'd like to be able to do yourself, but never will.

Honky Tonk piano? It's a Yamaha C3 and the recordings are extremely clear. That was the goal. To illustrate the clear, clean articulation at a high rate of speed. Or can't you figure that one out all on your own?

[virtuosic1]

Don't insult 
Kids are more mature than that
If you look at the idiots in forums they are almost never kids

Semms like they talk a whole lot about "b***h slappin" and Liszt over there. Fitting. Liszt would b***h-slap the lot of them, with his "black hand" side.   

[danny elfboy]

Semms like they talk a whole lot about "b***h slappin" and Liszt over there. Fitting. Liszt would b***h-slap the lot of them, with his "black hand" side.   

Yeah 
And look at the age of the people who talk about "pregnant dog slapping" and suffer of Z's retention 

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[danny elfboy]

......and the fingers "walking" the hand along the keyboard laterally, instead of the hand taking the fingers to the next location. Like a typewriter carriage carrying the strikers across the paper.

The most efficient way to move in the next location is effortless lifting impulse of the hand
What many people seem to forget is that the piano is a percussive instrument and should be played accordingly: percussively. That's it the wrist is loose, the forearms work like levers and the most effecient and economical way to produce a sound is neither pushing down or pulling down but falling over.

[Mozartian]

Yeah. And what did you find to be "nightmarish" about this? The fact that your extremely limited knowledge didn't allow you to get you very far in trying to "one-up" me?

I'm not like anybody else, son. Everything I post about playing piano can be taken as gospel. I'm the real McCoy, and you know it, and therin lies the problem of your frustrated consternation and inabilty to elaborate on your negative comments directed towards me.

All hail the great piano prophet, the REAL McCOY! (not the fake one).

[jre58591]

Sounds like as if opus10no2 created it

wow, you really hit the nail on the head.

[danny elfboy]

wow, you really hit the nail on the head.

So ... know I don't understad
If he and his ilk have a place on their own where to post their retarded beliefs on technique, musicality, composers, speed and so on ... why in the world they must come here too and torture us?

Sounds like trespassing to me, I feel now justified to use violence to keep the da comme ilk in its own "prison". For the records I have nothing against the humour of the forum.
I'm as liberal as it gets, anti censorship and I hate bigotry or accademical austerity and I don't believe there are evidences that porn is bad for anyone and every healthy person has seen porn as a child. I love unencyclopedia and all the nonsense there.

It's just that people like opus10no2, chromatickler and the like are half-enjoyable people as long as they're banned from ever touching a piano or claim something about piano playing and music in general

But dnephi suggesting virtuosic1 to get the opinion of Da SCD forum must be a joke ... right?

[virtuosic1]

All hail the great piano prophet, the REAL McCOY! (not the fake one).

THIS, from someone with a weak heart and the pulse rate of a nervous rabbit! Weak heart = weak body and mind, but you already know that. Your hands must look like claws when you try to play rapid passages. Ultimately, it's all about ejection fraction, or the lack of it. You should save your energy for breathing instead of pontificating.

Sidebar: Is this the type of forum you people want? You have two people here that know what they're talking about on this thread. You should be learning from this. You should be at the piano while reading these posts by elf and myself, not quibbling like young school girls. This is some atmosphere here on this forum. If this is indicative of the type of mindset in classical training, no wonder almost no advancements have been made in the past 30 years. Everybody knows everything, until they attempt to post. Then it becomes quite apparent that the opposite is true. You should be thankful that Elf and I are having this discussion and learn from it, trying some of the principles we speak of and then seeing an improvement, instead of being class clowns with no class.

[virtuosic1]

All hail the great piano prophet, the REAL McCOY! (not the fake one).

Do you have any idea what really matters in this thread? Do you care? It's all about helping fnork with a question, and aiding Dan Patschan in his quest to greater velocity in the op 10, #1. Now, in my opinion, with the advice I've given him, the path I've started him on, combined with ElfBoy's helpful and equally astute observations, I think that Dan is going to be able to experience a vast improvement in his execution of the peice he sought assistance on, even though we got sidetracked with the usual obligatory, accusatory BS.

Why don't we reserve judgement on what kind of Prophet I am, real or false, until we see if the MAIN GOAL OF THIS THREAD, becomes realized, that is, a marked improvement in Dan and fnork's technical execution on a piece that involves the 4-5 fingers.

Logically, THAT should be the deciding factor in determining just what type of Prophet I am, don't you agree?

[jakev2.0]

Your hands must look like claws when you try to play rapid passages.

And yours must look rather relaxed...not very taxing to play a computerized file, is it?

Sidebar: Is this the type of forum you people want? You have two people here that know what they're talking about on this thread. You should be learning from this. You should be at the piano while reading these posts by elf and myself, not quibbling like young school girls. This is some atmosphere here on this forum.

On the contrary. It speaks to the quality of this forum that so many members possess the ear to be able to tell that the files you posted as your own playing were fabrications.  I would be worried if we weren't fooled by that rubbish.

If this is indicative of the type of mindset in classical training, no wonder almost no advancements have been made in the past 30 years.

Yeah, but why would it be "indicative of the type of mindest in classical training"? What are you even talking about?

[virtuosic1]

And yours must look rather relaxed...not very taxing to play a computerized file, is it?

On the contrary. It speaks to the quality of this forum that so many members possess the ear to be able to tell that the files you posted as your own playing were fabrications.  I would be worried if we weren't fooled by that rubbish.

Yeah, but why would it be "indicative of the type of mindest in classical training"? What are you even talking about?

Like I said, why don't we see what type of progress Dan Patschan is able to experience using my suggestions? You're that impatient as well as being my personal troll, boy?

[jakev2.0]

I never doubted that liars / frauds are able to produce some useful advice, did I?

[virtuosic1]

And yours must look rather relaxed...not very taxing to play a computerized file, is it?

On the contrary. It speaks to the quality of this forum that so many members possess the ear to be able to tell that the files you posted as your own playing were fabrications.  I would be worried if we weren't fooled by that rubbish.

Yeah, but why would it be "indicative of the type of mindest in classical training"? What are you even talking about?

Like I said before you ran from the Chat room, you and I, in a room, with a piano. Any piano, any room. You sit down and play and I will duplicate anything you play, bar by bar, in whatever key you pick, only faster. You maintain that I posted computerized files, yet, as I suggested in the chat room, you refuse to email Michael Habermann, a well known concert pianist and scholar, about my technical abilities.

[jakev2.0]

Like I said before you ran from the Chat room, you and I, in a room, with a piano. Any piano, any room. You sit down and play and I will duplicate anything you play, bar by bar, in whatever key you pick, only faster.

Ok. You 'n me. Flagpole. 3pm. If the principal finds out about this, expect retaliation in the form of extra-hard, undie-tearing wedgie.

[marik]

Gentlemen,

Could you cut it off, please. It would be very unfortunate if this otherwise excellent thread would be deleted.

Thanks.

[danny elfboy]

Let's continue the debate on the chat   

[jakev2.0]

Indeed, this is getting out of hand. If you wish to continue via private messaging I'm ready, "virtuoso1". 

[virtuosic1]

Indeed, this is getting out of hand. If you wish to continue via private messaging I'm ready, "virtuoso1". 

Wait a minute. You're MY troll. I didn't say anything about schoolyards. In the chatroom, I invited you to a showdown at a piano keyboard. Unless you think I'd hide a computer in your piano. You'd rather decline and continue making slanderous accusations then back up all your smack, right? Back up your BS. No matter what I post, you'll say it's tricked with. My solution is to meet up in person. You declined and you keep declining. Are you so afraid to be proved wrong with your own eyes and ears?

Now, that said, for the sake of fnork and dan patschan, whom I sought to assist with this thread before trolls involved themselves, I'll go to private messages only with Jake. Try to help somebody and the thread turns into a combat zone. How bizarre.

[cloches_de_geneve]

This thread is 20% excellent advice vs. 80% crap. I wish it could have been the reverse.

[nicco]

You should save your energy for breathing instead of pontificating.

And you should save your energy by stopping to write all that crap about how good you are, and how anyone else doesent have a clue what you are talking about. Instead, make a geniune recording of yourself playing a piece on the piano, this empty talk and threats you bring on sure dont scare anyone. And about this "Any speed-any key" crap, who cares? Surely you must have learned something else then backwards czerny etudes and chromatic scales?

[virtuosic1]

And you should save your energy by stopping to write all that crap about how good you are, and how anyone else doesent have a clue what you are talking about. Instead, make a geniune recording of yourself playing a piece on the piano, this empty talk and threats you bring on sure dont scare anyone. And about this "Any speed-any key" crap, who cares? Surely you must have learned something else then backwards czerny etudes and chromatic scales?

I wasn't trying to impress anybody. This thread was about assisting fnork and Dan patschan. Nothing more. The trouble started when I posted ACOUSTIC PIANO sound files. Just the act my doing that simple thing, without commenting on whether their content was good or bad, was enough to start some off on a tangent about computers.

I'm typing this on a Gateway G6-450. A Pentium 2, 1997 computer with Windows 98. The only PC I own. My PC wouldn't support a piano program, writing program, or any type of program that can be used to generate music and alter it. I know this because several years ago I was in Sam Ash and saw a writing system that I believe was called "Sibelius". With this program, you could write music onscreen with the cursor, and print it out which would have been a great convenience to me for my students. The salesman asked me what I had (PC), and when I told him he said that I would have to upgrade the PC before Idecided to add ANY decent music programs. All I've posted thusfar are analog sounds, played on a Yamaha C3 acoustic grand, stereo miked to a recorder and then transferred for me to a wave file recorder to upload.

Let's try this. Since all of my piano playing is done on a "computer", this was something I did 20+ years ago that I had on cassette, ergo not the cleanest of sound. I just ran across an improvisation that I had done about 20 years ago. It's based on "Teen Town" by Weather Report. It combines a programmable rhythm unit playing while I'm switching between 3 different bass synth settings on a Yamaha synth keyboard all played in real time. At the time, I was emulating a Jaco Patorius / Jamaladeen Tacuma hybrid sound, sometimes at a rate of speed far in excess of what a bass player would be capable of, just for fun. The stretches here are all played right hand only, the left hand being used to switch between voices at the proper times for desired effects, and to use the modulation wheel to bend pitch and modulate vibrato in the style being emulated. In some of the phrases, the notes go by far more rapidly than that 8.5 second, 175 note chromatic run I posted (especially at 2:00 to 2:20 of the recording):

http://h1.ripway.com/virtuosic1/R1_0021.MP3

Of course, Jake will say it's sped up, even though there was a rhythm unit playing a metronomic beat the whole time I was shredding. Like all my other recordings I've posted, he'll say "it's a fake", "too perfect", "no rubato", etc., etc., so this really is a moot point about my posting "something I'm really playing", isn't it? I have boxes full of casettes with my playing on them. The problem is that you can't plug a cassette player into the internet to upload files. A few recordings, like the one above, one of my students has converted to an MP3 file and uploaded it for me, like the other material I shared here that I recorded at his home for a specific purpose, that is, to demonstrate technique.

Personally, I'm well beyond caring about who thinks what. I have nothing to prove to anybody.