Chopin etude op. 10 no. 2

[marik]

I won't bother posting a sound file because I'll be accused of using a computer, even though room ambience is obvious in my recordings as the piano is miked, but when practicing with a metronome, I can maintain quarter = 200 without a problem.

I will be in NYC mid May for recordings. I am bringing with me my whole "on location" $30,000 recording setup. How about getting together and doing some recordings, including this etude? Then I will post it here.
This way all those stinkers will shut up.

Best regards, M

[daniel patschan]

That´s an excellent idea - everybody will shut up then ! 

[cmg]

Here's Chopin's true genius. Not simply the etudes themselves, but beyond the genius of simply the compositions themselves. Each etude is designed to be played with a specific "dance" of the playing mechanism. A specific motion that repeats on each beat (each 4-note group) on the op 10 #2. Each etude is more wave motion specific, that is, necessitating a specific choreography of the elbow, forearm, wrist, and hand CARRYING the fingers to the targets to execute them effortlessly.

Well, this statement alone by virtuosic1 is worth the price of admission to this topic.  It literally makes each etude possible to play by any advanced, earnest pianist.  When you really think about every Chopin Etude you've mastered, don't you realize how much each one taught you about HOW to play, as opposed to how strong your fingers have gotten?  Further observations from Elfen Danny regarding the neurobiology of playing just add greater insight to the issue.

Why this obsession with speed, though?  If your technical approach is solid and thought through fully, you'll play as fast as your talent/mechansm will allow.  If you can't tear through 10/2 like some SDC advocate on crystal meth, then you'll be forced to mine the etude for as much musicality as possible.  Isn't music the point here?  Super-fast speeds almost always make musically detailed performances impossible.  Argerich, for example, is at her worst when she's practically out of control with speed.  Dazzling, yes, but essentially empty. 

Who cares how fast anyone can play this etude.  Where's the music in it?  It's Chopin, you know, so take your time and give the genius there its due.

All that aside, thanks to virtuosic1 and Danny for their substantial contributions here.

[opus10no2]

Besides every one can play 3 notes at an unbelievable fast speed .... even a beginner

I would hardly call it 'unbelievable'.

The simple difference is that with just a few notes, its just reflex, after a few notes the 'speed' would disappear and they would struggle.

[danny elfboy]

I would hardly call it 'unbelievable'.

The simple difference is that with just a few notes, its just reflex, after a few notes the 'speed' would disappear and they would struggle.

It's the same thing I'm saying
Why it disappear?
If it disappear it was already there
Speed is nothing but a reflex
Speed is more than a reflext when big muscles like quadriceps influence blood flow, myofibrillis changes and substrate oxidation a lot. This never happen with forearm arm muscle or piano playing. Speed in playing with your forearm is nothing but a reflex a reflex we all have because we use our forearm and hands a lot from writing to grasping
Losing speed when three notes becomes MORE and we struggle is a sign of lack of control of that reflex or something hindering that reflex (non-resetting accumulated contractions)

[pianistimo]

so it's marik, virtuosic1, hakki, and opus10no2 - as his name implies - that will post recordings?  maybe videos?

$30,000 worth of recording equipment.  hmmm.  i'd try that even if i was playing at a snails pace - just to see how good i could sound.  you can always technologically speed it up you know.  just play it perfectly once at a normal tempo - then speed it up.  who knows on these recordings (without video - which also can be sped up) who is playing at what speed.  although it does look odd if they scratch their nose or pull up socks at a lightening  pace.

i can play about 5 pages of anything really fast.  after that - i just need a pause.  something to let my hands just relax and do nothing.  why don't composers write these into etudes.  an etude should typically only be 3 pages at max.  a five page etude is self defeating.  unless you play it so fast that you get through the five pages in the same time as someone else gets through three. 

maybe etudes would be ok - lightly sprinkled in a program.  but, if i saw an entire program of etudes and a smelly performer - i think i'd rather hear someone who walked toward the piano leaving a whiff of some after-shave cologne than pure sweat.  20 etudes?  how about some nocturnes.  what about those?

[opus10no2]

so it's marik, virtuosic1, hakki, and opus10no2 - as his name implies - that will post recordings?  maybe videos?

$30,000 worth of recording equipment.  hmmm.  i'd try that even if i was playing at a snails pace - just to see how good i could sound.  you can always technologically speed it up you know.  just play it perfectly once at a normal tempo - then speed it up.  who knows on these recordings (without video - which also can be sped up) who is playing at what speed.  although it does look odd if they scratch their nose or pull up socks at a lightening  pace.

i can play about 5 pages of anything really fast.  after that - i just need a pause.  something to let my hands just relax and do nothing.  why don't composers write these into etudes.  an etude should typically only be 3 pages at max.  a five page etude is self defeating.  unless you play it so fast that you get through the five pages in the same time as someone else gets through three. 

maybe etudes would be ok - lightly sprinkled in a program.  but, if i saw an entire program of etudes and a smelly performer - i think i'd rather hear someone who walked toward the piano leaving a whiff of some after-shave cologne than pure sweat.  20 etudes?  how about some nocturnes.  what about those?

 

[virtuosic1]

.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

i can play about 5 pages of anything really fast.  after that - i just need a pause.  something to let my hands just relax and do nothing.  why don't composers write these into etudes.  an etude should typically only be 3 pages at max.  a five page etude is self defeating.  unless you play it so fast that you get through the five pages in the same time as someone else gets through three. 

No Alkan for you 

[virtuosic1]

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[mephisto]

I still don't agree with you saying "fast fingers"

There's no muscles in the fingers

Are you 100% certain of this? Because I asked my parents - both of whom are doctors - and they said that there were muscles in the fingers.

[nicco]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand

[danny elfboy]

Are you 100% certain of this? Because I asked my parents - both of whom are doctors - and they said that there were muscles in the fingers.

Could be a matter of semantic
Popularly we call fingers those bones that are attached to the hand
But the hand doesn't actually exist
The hand (palm) is nothing but the metacarpal portion of the fingers covered in muscles
(if you look at a skeleton where there are no muscles fingers look longer because you see the metacarpal and phalanges attached to the wrist and so the illusion of an "hand" to which are attached fingers disappears)

So the misunderstanding may depend on whether one use the words "fingers"
Sticking for the popular meaning, there are no muscles in the last three phalanges you see attached to your hand and you call fingers

There are instead muscles in the metacarpal bones (the hand/palm)
 
These muscles:

the interossei allow spreading and beding at the joints of the metacarpals
the abductor pollicis allow the lateral motion of the thumb
the flexor and opponent pollicis allow spreading and bending at the metacarpal and carpometacarpal joints of the thumb
the abductor digit allow spreading of the 5th finger
the flexor and opponent digiti allow bending at respectively the metacarpal and carpometacarpal joints of the 5th finger

These are very small muscles and the most important aspect is allowing bigger stretch and wider palms. In a way the hand span and ability to stretch is not at all limited to inborn anatomy and shape of the hand. Pianists can stretch both fingers and palm way more than non pianists

Oh yes I forgot the lumbricalis
They're extremely small muscles that provide the forward spreading and tightening of the joints separating the metacarpals from the phalanges

[opus10no2]

How about some Henselt (who at that time, the concensus being that he was even more of a technical wizard than Liszt!)?

 

The reference to Alkan was specific because Alkan is known for his long etudes, one being virtually half an hour long.

[virtuosic1]

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[pianowolfi]

Just two remarks: Afaik the metronome mark by Chopin says 1/4=144. There are some people who can play it faster. Marik is one of the few here whom I really believe when he says that he is able to play it faster.

[virtuosic1]

.

[vlhorowitz]

Here's Chopin's true genius. Not simply the etudes themselves, but beyond the genius of simply the compositions themselves. Each etude is designed to be played with a specific "dance" of the playing mechanism.

And to know that Chopin was all of 19-20 years old when he composed most of them...  will we EVER see something like that again ??

[pianowolfi]

Then you're completely in the dark.

Hello darkness my old friend. 

[marik]

Just two remarks: Afaik the metronome mark by Chopin says 1/4=144. There are some people who can play it faster. Marik is one of the few here whom I really believe when he says that he is able to play it faster.

Thank you Wolfi for your trust 
In fact, I heard many fast op10/2, which were much faster than 1/4=144. The interesting thing however, the real beautiful were slower ones, but from folks who in fact, could play it the fastests.
I had a friend who spent 5 years of his life mastering op10/2 right after op10/1 every single day for at least 2 hours a day. Never ever in my life I could see anything like that--his 10/1 was something close to 1/4=200 and then right after that 10/2  at 1/4=172, with no any rest whatsoever. The only problem was... he notoriously could not play a single passage in Beethoven Sonata evenly. He was a big laugh of Moscow Conservatory. His own professor (E. Malinin, IIRC) was saying: "There is always an idiot who could play it faster". My guess, this guy is still mastering those two somewhere ...
You know, Kapell was right...


Nowdays I think about tempi rather in terms of hall acoustics. You know, you come to the hall for the concert, sit on the bench, and then take the first sound. You wait until the sound comes back to you from the hall and then you listen to yourself--your innate voice. You take second sound, and that's where everything starts.... If the acoustics are on the wet side, then it is better to hold everything back, and listen carefully to the hall--that's all you want, otherwise all will be blured and mumbled. If it is dry, well... then you wish you'd never played piano... and it is a good idea to get through the program as quick as it is possible .

Best, M

[vlhorowitz]

Thank you Wolfi for your trust 
In fact, I heard many fast op10/2, which were much faster than 1/4=144. The interesting thing however, the real beautiful were slower ones, but from folks who in fact, could play it the fastests.
I had a friend who spent 5 years of his life mastering op10/2 right after op10/1 every single day for at least 2 hours a day. Never ever in my life I could see anything like that--his 10/1 was something close to 1/4=200 and then right after that 10/2  at 1/4=172, with no any rest whatsoever. The only problem was... he notoriously could not play a single passage in Beethoven Sonata evenly. He was a big laugh of Moscow Conservatory. His own professor (E. Malinin, IIRC) was saying: "There is always an idiot who could play it faster". My guess, this guy is still mastering those two somewhere ...
You know, Kapell was right...

At about 1/4=168 the Wunder's Op.10/2 is wonderful not only for the reason of speed and eveness, but dynamics and musicality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T_AwQCuCUk

You know, the speed is the matter of three things--your actual abilities, your musical preferences, and age.
When I was young my two specialities were Op.10/1 which I could play... don't remember numbers, but it was very fast and 100% accurate, and Op.25/6, which I could play in 1:36. Now, many years later, I think I still could play those tempi, the problem is I don't care about speed anymore. I played the Op.25/6 in a concert a couple years ago and "limped" to the end in some 1:50 or 1:55, but I was quite happy with that because at least, finally, I was able to show some pretty beautiful harmonies in the L.H... or at least that was what I thought...

Nowdays I think about tempi rather in terms of hall acoustics. You know, you come to the hall for the concert, sit on the bench, and then take the first sound. You wait until the sound comes back to you from the hall and then you listen to yourself--your innate voice. You take second sound, and that's where everything starts.... If the acoustics are on the wet side, then it is better to hold everything back, and listen carefully to the hall--that's all you want, otherwise all will be blured and mumbled. If it is dry, well... then you wish you'd never played piano... and it is a good idea to get through the program as quick as it is possible .

Best, M

First of all, hilarious story about the Moscow etude player. Did you study there btw ?

And secondly, it's a shame Ingolf did not win. I think Blechacz is quite musical; however, this Wunder kid seems to be a more unique artist - with the chops as well. I guess that's why he's quite popular here.

[opus10no2]

I do find it hard to believe that he really could not play a Beethoven sonata properly, unless the difficulty was in the left hand..?

Or was it because he had no time for the Beethoven?

The endurance difficulties in the Chopin are unmatched in anything by Beethoven.

[virtuosic1]

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[jakev2.0]

This one right here.   

If someone whose playing sounds virtuosic and musical is an idiot, what adjective do you ascribe to someone's whose playing sounds robotic and computer-generated? 

[virtuosic1]

If someone whose playing sounds virtuosic and musical is an idiot, what adjective do you ascribe to someone's whose playing sounds robotic and computer-generated? 

I have no idea. You're the one accusing me of creating computer generated MP3s. I don't hear it that way. What I hear on my MP3s is exactly what I hear sitting behind the piano. What I've posted (the Czerny, the chromatic run) were technical exercise, the goal being to play them with as much metronomic precision as possible.

You ascertain that these are a computer as well:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

and yet, there's nothing here that sounds even remotely robotic.
And obviously, this is played on the same piano as the above files:

http://h1.ripway.com/Virtuosic1/R1_0026.MP3

I could have recorded the above Czerny etude at half = 150 or more (50% faster), with flaws, but I chose to add a left hand bass line and play it flawlessly at the prescribed tempo.

But you just go right ahead and try convincing everyone that I can't play and these are computer generated, room ambience and all. This way, you'll be the consummate horse's rectum when I manage to get some videos up on Youtube. Hopefully, you'll choke on them.

[pianowolfi]

I have no idea. You're the one accusing me of creating computer generated MP3s. I don't hear it that way. What I hear on my MP3s is exactly what I hear sitting behind the piano. What I've posted (the Czerny, the chromatic run) were technical exercise, the goal being to play them with as much metronomic precision as possible.

You ascertain that these are a computer as well:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

and yet, there's nothing here that sounds even remotely robotic.
And obviously, this is played on the same piano as the above files:

http://h1.ripway.com/Virtuosic1/R1_0026.MP3

I could have recorded the above Czerny etude at half = 150 or more (50% faster), with flaws, but I chose to add a left hand bass line and play it flawlessly at the prescribed tempo.

But you just go right ahead and try convincing everyone that I can't play and these are computer generated, room ambience and all. This way, you'll be the consummate horse's rectum when I manage to get some videos up on Youtube. Hopefully, you'll choke on them.

The remaining thread has been deleted obviously but I want to state clearly that I have said to Virtuosic that I like his two jazz improvs but that I am still suspicious regarding the Czerny rec...(and i AM still suspicious) I am after all not somebody who relates too much to preconcieved opinions even if they are my own ones.   

[ramseytheii]

I have no idea. You're the one accusing me of creating computer generated MP3s. I don't hear it that way. What I hear on my MP3s is exactly what I hear sitting behind the piano. What I've posted (the Czerny, the chromatic run) were technical exercise, the goal being to play them with as much metronomic precision as possible.

You ascertain that these are a computer as well:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

and yet, there's nothing here that sounds even remotely robotic.
And obviously, this is played on the same piano as the above files:

http://h1.ripway.com/Virtuosic1/R1_0026.MP3

I could have recorded the above Czerny etude at half = 150 or more (50% faster), with flaws, but I chose to add a left hand bass line and play it flawlessly at the prescribed tempo.

But you just go right ahead and try convincing everyone that I can't play and these are computer generated, room ambience and all. This way, you'll be the consummate horse's rectum when I manage to get some videos up on Youtube. Hopefully, you'll choke on them.

I love it!  I haven't listened to the recordings and won't ever, but anything that puts opus12 in a snit is good by me.

Walter Ramsey

[opus10no2]

By your definition, 9/11 was good.

[demented cow]

Here is Vadim Rudenko doing 10/2, at a tempo similar to that of Wunder:
www.suavisartists.ch/vadimrudenko-i.htm#musica
what do you think about the tempo fluctuations? Are they intended?
Intended or not, I like them. They make the piece sound like a graphic depiction of a psychotic gazelle that wasn't given its medication that day, an accolade I would not give to many recording of 10/2.

[elevateme_returns]

i don't think theyre done on purpose, i think its clearly been edited.

which rules out the stamina issue, which is really what makes this etude difficult