Broken Octaves

[pet]

Hello All,

Right now I am playing the Schumann Sonata in G minor, and I am working on the last movement, and I'm having a little bit of difficulty getting through it since it is mostly composed of broken octaves, and by the time I get to this movement my hands are sooo tired!  I can only reach an octave, so playing broken octaves consistently takes a toll on my hands.  Any suggestions on how to build stamina in making it to the end without a problem?

On another note, I will be starting new pieces for the summer, and the composers for the summer are Beethoven and Chopin since I haven't played enough of their music.  The technique that I have been working on for the past year is broken octaves, and I was hoping for some suggestions of pieces from these two composers, where I have to use this technique.  I want a Beethoven Sonata and Chopin Etude. 

Thanks in advance!

[teresa_b]

Broken octaves can be tough!  I find them especially difficult whenever they go up and down in patterns other than a straight scale. 

I have no great secrets, but this helps me:

Practice them as block octaves. 

Practice them using only the leading thumb or 4-5th fingers (whichever finger is "leading" the series of octaves), not playing the other note of the octave.  This way your hand gets used to exactly where it's going.

Practice them slowly (of course), and try to resist ever playing too fast so that you can't play them clearly. 

Try playing them in different rhythms, then play them with metronome, as evenly as possible. 

Good luck! 
Teresa

[thalberg]

Yes I remember when I couldn't play broken octaves.

There is a secret.  Easy to learn.  You can do it!

It's called "rotation".  When you're playing the broken octaves, quickly rotate your arm back and forth in such a way that your tricep jiggles.  It helps if you're fat, but thin people can do this too--I learned it from a thin person.  The jiggling tricep is the simplest way to learn this otherwise rather complicated technique.

If you want a more technical explanation--when you rotate toward your fifth finger, it's easy, no problem. But when you rotate toward the thumb, the whole arm has to get involved and even move a little forward.  Take a look at an anatomy book, and see the muscles that "pronate" and "supinate" the arm.  For an even better explanation, see Seymour Fink's textbook, "Mastering Piano Technique." 

Or.....like I said....just jiggle your tricep.

[ail]

I think I learned broken octaves with Galos's Nocturne no.6, Le Lac de Côme. Right now, I'm very fond of broken octaves and I don't find them too difficult.As for how I do them, I open the hand in the right range and then rotate the wrist keeping the hand more or less in the same fixed position. I just move the hand around as necessary to play the notes and currently I can do third-jumps with it. I find it comfortable enough to be training for fifth and octava jumps.

I should say that I only do this with the right-hand, though :-(.

Alex

[ramibarniv]

Yes, as suggested here Rotation is the technique for it.
A Beethoven piece for it in the LH would be the Pathetique sonata #8 op. 13, the Allegro di molto e con brio of the 1st mvt.
Best wishes,
Rami
http://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
http://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[cmg]

Or.....like I said....just jiggle your tricep.

Anatomical tip:  "triceps" are also known as "Mermans," as in Ethel Merman, legendary Broadway star who had legendary triceps.

(But seriously, folks, this is great advice.  Thanks "blintz.")

[comma]

It has already been said above. The right technique for playing broken octaves is the rotation of the forearm. Two points are important:
1. When playing with the forearm rotation don't move your fingers additionally. They do nothing else than conveying the forearm energy onto the keys.
2. Remember that you are not only playing octaves. Actually the distance between your 1st and 5th finger changes from none to octave and vice versa. If you make this clear in your head broken octaves will become much easier.

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http://www.pianistenschule.de

[ramseytheii]

It has already been said above. The right technique for playing broken octaves is the rotation of the forearm. Two points are important:
1. When playing with the forearm rotation don't move your fingers additionally. They do nothing else than conveying the forearm energy onto the keys.
2. Remember that you are not only playing octaves. Actually the distance between your 1st and 5th finger changes from none to octave and vice versa. If you make this clear in your head broken octaves will become much easier.

--------------------

http://www.pianistenschule.de

#2:  Good point!  For clarification, in English we say "ninth" instead of "none."  Depending on the direction of the scales in broken octaves, the interval of a ninth might be present, or a seventh.  Both of them can also be practiced melodically as you suggest.

Something should be said about variety of sound possible with this technique.  If you want a murmuring, indistinct broken octave, or tremolo, the fingers should stay "inside" the keys as much as possible.  If you want a brilliant and highly articulated version, the fingers can touch the key from above.

Walter Ramsey

[lostinidlewonder]

One more thing to add to the useful comments already:

Question what part of the broken octaves trouble you. Of course the first note cannot trouble you, the 2nd might be ok, but what about the rest? Pinpoint exactly which movement is troubling yourself because there are infinite things which could be going wrote causing you tension and loss of energy, the first step is to identify where exactly you start to feel the bad stuff.

The thing about broken octaves is that people feel as if each finger has to individually press into the note and they do not consider it as one movement. The forearm movement allows us to shake the hand without having to use the fingers to press individually as has been mentioned in previous posts but we must also observe the centre of our hand, where does the hand pivot from, where does it shake around? Is it inbetween the Thumb and 2nd finger? Is it at the 3rd finger? Where is the centre of our hand when we shake at our forearm which causes our hand to also shake? This is of course different for each person but essential to feel.

[verywellmister]

I'm playing this piece now too
and I'm looking for a Bach and a contemporary piece

[pet]

Thanks everyone!!  Your comments were extremely helpful, and I will put it to practice!