I want you to be good , but I don't want you to be *too good* ;)

[opus10no2]

In giving advice, teaching, or discussing anything of a nature that would help others, do you ever withhold ideas that have given you an edge, practice tips that would perhaps save others time, in a selfish way
If a teacher comes across a method, of his own creation, is it obligatory to teach it, or is it perfectly OK for him to keep it to himself, knowing he will have that edge.

An interesting topic methinks. And I hope it doesn't make me seem evil 

[arensky]

In giving advice, teaching, or discussing anything of a nature that would help others, do you ever withhold ideas that have given you an edge, practice tips that would perhaps save others time, in a selfish way

With my students, never. With rivals (playing and teaching) who could use that knowledge as power against me, yes, in many cases.

If a teacher comes across a method, of his own creation, is it obligatory to teach it, or is it perfectly OK for him to keep it to himself, knowing he will have that edge.

The person can do what they want with their creation/concept. As to whether sharing the gold should be the right thing to do, that depends on the individual's own value system. There is no law or commandment about this.

At least, in piano playing.

If the creation/concept was about something really important like a cure for AIDS or Cancer, that would be different.

An interesting topic methinks. And I hope it doesn't make me seem evil 

Very interesting. I don't think it makes you seem evil, just thoughtful and inquring, traits sadly lacking in most people , nowadays.

But what would you do? 

[opus10no2]

 

I'd say this also depends on age. Say someone is past their prime, they are less competitive, and often live through others' success, then the knowledge and secret ninja skillz should be bestowed upon the most righteous of students 

When someone is older they want to pass on their legacy, they allow the next generation to stand on their metaphorical shoulder, but they would never be so kind to their own generation 

[pianowolfi]

In giving advice, teaching, or discussing anything of a nature that would help others, do you ever withhold ideas that have given you an edge, practice tips that would perhaps save others time, in a selfish way
If a teacher comes across a method, of his own creation, is it obligatory to teach it, or is it perfectly OK for him to keep it to himself, knowing he will have that edge.

An interesting topic methinks. And I hope it doesn't make me seem evil 

Sometimes I think that the true secrets can be told frankly to everyone. The way from having received them until actually being able to realize them is a long one anyway. There are no tricks after all. One of my "legendary legends" among pianists, Scherbakov, once told his "secret" of touch to everyone in two sentences in a masterclass. It sounded sorta like:" I just put my hand on the keys, like that. I have no special method in hand posture" then he demonstrated his hand position. Slightly curved fingers, natural position. That's all. Public secret. Everybody can watch. Everybody can listen. But play like him, with a tone like him? Not that easy, I guess...

[Mayla]

hmmmm... with my students, no.  I don't with-hold for those reasons (though I with-hold A LOT for other reasons).  Not even with my student who also teaches her own students -- and with this one in particular, I had to make a conscious decision about it -- and, she will take what she decides to take, anyway. 

But, with some people -- why, I haven't got any secrets at all

With somebody I trust, everything changes.

In the end, nobody is me though, no matter what I tell them (and I am not them no matter what they tell me).  And, it's not like I really know something worth hiding -- I'm certainly no ninja.  It's just not always simple, I have realized.

[ada]

I don't teach piano but I have taught news reporting and feature writing and I'm sure the same principles apply.

What you say raises interesting issues. As a teacher, I think you are morally obliged to give your students the basics required to do the job proficiently.

But teaching music, like writing, is ultimately about equipping students to discover  things for themselves. Of course I am not going to give away all the tricks of the trade as figuring out some of this stuff through trial and error is part of the learning process. (Plus as you suggest you may find youself having to watch your back  ).

There will always be the question of what happens if by imparting everything I have learnt through years of experience my student surpasses me? But I suppose if a teacher has this concern they should perhaps not be teaching, but doing.

By the same token if you have been through the mill so to speak and your music or your art or whatever has rewarded you, then you perhaps have something of a moral obligation to pass your knowledge onto a fresh  generation, so it doesn't die ...

[Mayla]

Honestly, if I had a student become my teacher, I guess I would be pretty proud. 

I mean, if nothing else, it would, at the very least, mean that I have pretty good taste in picking students .

[keyofc]

opus10,
Just wondering if you are new to teaching?
I remember when I first started - it is funny now when I think of it.
My first student caught on so fast, I thought she played one song better than me.
Instead of being proud - I felt down about it, and thought, "She's so good -  What will I show her next?   She had only been with me for a few months - and she was playing some of Beethovens pieces almost, if not, as well as me.  That was scary to me since I was new.

What I didn't think about at the time - that although I was new to teaching, I was still bringing with me many years of piano learning that I took for granted.  It took a long time for me to get where I was  and I had a lot more to offer than I thought I did.

 I do sometimes try to keep some things to myself if I'm talking to someone who is a show - off - I am referring to a peer - not, a student.
But it's difficult even then - because I love teaching - and I remember certain things that took me a long time to do - just because it lacked a simple explanation.  So I'm excited when I find an easy way to show a complex concept.

And I agree with the other post too - that said - it's one thing to show someone - and another thing for them to play the same way.  You don't pick things up like good playing without hard work. 

[Bob]

I always give out the best I can.

Because the student still has to do some type of work.  I can give my most enlightening idea that helped me hugely, but really it's just an idea.  If they don't use it, it means nothing.  From the teacher side, I give my students lots of ideas -- but they ignore a lot of them.  I don't know which ones will stick, which ones will matter. 

I'm thinking there really aren't any secrets.  It's just intelligent practice and hard work. 

And then what's the secret?  Some broad philosophy?  Hasn't someone somewhere already mentioned it?  Or is it something about a detail in piano playing -- "I have discovered how to really iron out my scales by using my thumb a certain way."  Or is it something that will apply only to you, or only to a certain number of people?  In that case, why keep it a secret?

And then if I keep my best ideas to myself, sometimes it backfires -- I get no input on other to reshape that idea.  If I give it away freely, I get more back.  If I keep it to myself, I don't get as much.  I'm greedy.

And then there's the professional angle -- It's your duty to share ideas with your colleagues.  If you know something, you're obligated to share it.  Otherwise, someone will have to rethink that idea and that's wasted time.  Their effort could have gone into building on your idea instead and furthering the body of available knowedge for everyone.

The only "secrets" I can think of are how to approach practicing and then specific techniques.  And then occasionally you hear about someone who simplified a piece -- some unique way of dealing with a challenging spot in a piece.  But even with those, they aren't ideas that are completely unknown to everyone.

I'm thinking there really are no secrets.  If it's a student, giving them your 'secret' is only going to be another suggestion for them.  If it's another performer, I wouldn't mind if they knew my ideas -- but why and when would I tell them?  If I did take the time to show them something, I would be thinking they would return the favor and give me some tips too. 

[Bob]

And then there's the fish in the pond idea.  So you keep information from someone else?  What good does it do?  Because ultimately you're competing against everyone and there are hundreds and hundreds of people much better than you and the people you keep the information from. 

And there are those people who are progressing very rapidly.  But they will continue to progress most likely whether you help them or not.  You can leave them alone, or help them and make a friend.


If someone writes their own method book, that's another story.  It's there own "property" that others could purchase.



And then there's the field.  If you have some truly revolutionary new idea, it would be different from what's normally done.  Different might be rejected generally except for people willing to gamble with it.

[timothy42b]

Honestly, if I had a student become my teacher, I guess I would be pretty proud. 

I mean, if nothing else, it would, at the very least, mean that I have pretty good taste in picking students .

Actually if you're lucky enough to have serious students, shouldn't all of them surpass you eventually?

Teachers after all are expected to be professionals at teaching.  Students may never learn to teach as well as you but certainly should learn to play not only as well, but better. 

[Mayla]

Actually if you're lucky enough to have serious students, shouldn't all of them surpass you eventually?

Sure, if I am doing my "job" currectly, in theory I suppose you are exactly correct  .

[rc]

I'm with Bob here.  The whole notion that there's some sort of special advice seems perverse.  As if there's this magic bullet that teachers withold, some special advice that gives an edge.  What a ridiculous notion.

Every useful bit of knowledge I've stumbled upon, I've read explained 100 times in as many different perspectives.  I mean, how do you communicate the feeling of concentration during playing to somebody who hasn't experienced it?  The best you can, but they won't truely understand until they make it there themselves.

If anything, a teacher holds back information because they don't want to confuse a student, with things irrelevant to the students current stage.

[a-sharp]

If anything, a teacher holds back information because they don't want to confuse a student, with things irrelevant to the students current stage.

This seems to make the most sense to me.

I mean - would someone please tell me what the *secret* is to absolutely fabulous playing?

*please!*

[ted]

I am not built that way personally. I missed the bus when the competitive genes were being dished out. However, reading the initial question, I realised that I have indeed known at least two music teachers who have acted that way. The teacher I studied with in my teens used to caution me against telling people about his hard-won "tricks" - usually involving clever chord progressions. Many years later I wanted, or thought I needed, help with a specific technical matter. I phoned a highly regarded teacher who said she could help me very easily but wouldn't say anything over the phone because I might not actually see her and she wouldn't get any money. So I had the magic lesson and she told me her secret, which turned out to be n.b.g. Served me right.

I think it's a bit pathetic if people are that precious about ideas. Either they don't have very many of them or they have a psychological problem. It scarcely applies to me the other way around. I share everything I think of but as people think I'm musically mad anyway it is of little significance and all rather pointless.

[pianowolfi]

This seems to make the most sense to me.

I mean - would someone please tell me what the *secret* is to absolutely fabulous playing?

*please!*

Inspiration.

[Bob]

I remember when wondering whether I should tell a student all I know or keep things to myself.  During a lesson I "bestowed" my great secret about practicing (forget what it was now).  The student looked at me blankly -- No impact.  The idea just bounced off.  No big revelation for them.  That's when I realized it was just one idea and it may not have been the right time for them.

[marco_from_brazil]

This seems to make the most sense to me.

I mean - would someone please tell me what the *secret* is to absolutely fabulous playing?

*please!*

Transpiration :-)

[thalberg]

In giving advice, teaching, or discussing anything of a nature that would help others, do you ever withhold ideas that have given you an edge, practice tips that would perhaps save others time, in a selfish way
If a teacher comes across a method, of his own creation, is it obligatory to teach it, or is it perfectly OK for him to keep it to himself, knowing he will have that edge.

An interesting topic methinks. And I hope it doesn't make me seem evil 

A teacher at my school did exactly just this--"Miss Olga."  She had lots of good practice tips regarding sound and technique.  I asked her to share them with me and she told me point blank that she took a long time to figure those things out and she wasn't "about to just give them away like that."  She said they were "professional secrets," to use her term.  She was in her early sixties, career coming to an end.....I was in my twenties and wanted to pass these things down through a lifetime of teaching......I think she was wrong to do this, because sharing her secrets with me would not have hurt her in the least and it could have helped many students.

[Mayla]

I am not built that way personally. I missed the bus when the competitive genes were being dished out. However, reading the initial question, I realised that I have indeed known at least two music teachers who have acted that way. The teacher I studied with in my teens used to caution me against telling people about his hard-won "tricks" - usually involving clever chord progressions. Many years later I wanted, or thought I needed, help with a specific technical matter. I phoned a highly regarded teacher who said she could help me very easily but wouldn't say anything over the phone because I might not actually see her and she wouldn't get any money. So I had the magic lesson and she told me her secret, which turned out to be n.b.g. Served me right.

I think it's a bit pathetic if people are that precious about ideas. Either they don't have very many of them or they have a psychological problem. It scarcely applies to me the other way around. I share everything I think of but as people think I'm musically mad anyway it is of little significance and all rather pointless.

I have been thinking about this a bit, now and over the last several years.  I have sometimes thought what you say here :  "Either they don't have very many of them or they have a psychological problem." -- I have realized something along these lines where one idea, or a collection of ideas, does not 'make' the person.  If the person is worth the idea, they probably have plenty more where that came from.

At the same time, I hate to say it, but my impression at this point is that sometimes a generous spirit, such as you have, Ted, can be used.  Not everybody has good intentions, and, while in principle I agree, that we should more or less freely share ideas with one another, some people have no intention of sharing and only want something for themselves.  For example, while it is a great thing to share and there is no harm in just that, if a person you have shared with turns around and somehow markets what you have shared as their own (before you have) -- I just think that's wrong.  It's wrong for you.  If the ideas are marketable, it should be you who gets the credit for them (unless you don't want it).

It would be similar to taking Chang's book, for example, and deciding that I were going to sell it.  I think it's copyrighted, but, he shares it on the internet for anybody, absolutely freely -- I believe, because he believes that is what is right.  But, it's not right for somebody to disrespect that and abuse it, and unfortunately there are people who would.  So, if he didn't copyright it, I think that would be a mistake.

So, it's not that I wouldn't share in principle, I would just wish to have an honest exchange or at the very least, I would like to be able to truly trust the person to have good intentions.  Some people are just plain lazy and they are looking for an "easy" way to "the top" -- they are trying to dupe people into believing that they know something that is very special -- without really knowing much at all.

I will admit, I feel personally mad about this sometimes.  Not necessarily in this subject-area, but because I can be a very hard worker in anything that I do -- and, the right person sees this in me.  The wrong person, as in some people I have worked for, sees this in me and uses it.  In all honesty, I have had to get really smart (but still have a long way to go) about how I handle this because nobody is looking out for me -- that's pretty much a long story.

But, along those lines :

A teacher at my school did exactly just this--"Miss Olga." She had lots of good practice tips regarding sound and technique. I asked her to share them with me and she told me point blank that she took a long time to figure those things out and she wasn't "about to just give them away like that." She said they were "professional secrets," to use her term. She was in her early sixties, career coming to an end.....I was in my twenties and wanted to pass these things down through a lifetime of teaching......I think she was wrong to do this, because sharing her secrets with me would not have hurt her in the least and it could have helped many students.

I have a few thoughts on this in particular.  First of all, who are we to judge what others do or don't tell us ?  I will admit, I am information-hungry, and I have been for years.  But, I also know exactly what my intentions are, too, and I know that I am an honest person when it comes to a tradition like this.  If "Miss Olga" felt that she had to work that hard for what she knew, so hard that she gaurded them this way, then it means she was not just handed this stuff, either.  So, there is something to ponder in that.  She has to make a decision, I guess, if she is going to carry that tradition of guarding ideas (which she obviously decided to do for at least part of that time), or change it.  And, if what somebody learns is hard-earned, I don't know... at the very least, they have the right to decide what they want to do with it.

Personally, I feel I have had to work really, really hard to get anywhere -- though, I also feel that along the way I have had the fortune of meeting some people who are willing to share generously with me and whose influence has made a tremendous difference for me.  And even just saying that, I had to stop a moment and contemplate how incredibly grateful I am to these people.  And, that's just it, it's extremely precious to me.  It's precious to me because I can tell it has come from YEARS of study -- maybe sometimes heartache and pain, too.  And, actually, sometimes, I honestly can't believe they are willing to share with me these things in the way that they do.  So, I try to do my best to be worthy of the sharing, and hope that this is giving something in return.

Anyway.  I don't think I am expressing my thoughts as clearly as I would like to be.  The bottom line is, I think that what each of us grow to understand and are able to demonstrate is very precious, actually.  And, really, I think it should be kept very close.  Not that it shouldn't be shared, it just needs the proper recipients, in my opinion.  Just like most of who we are in life. 

[thalberg]

The bottom line is, I think that what each of us grow to understand and are able to demonstrate is very precious, actually.  And, really, I think it should be kept very close.  Not that it shouldn't be shared, it just needs the proper recipients, in my opinion.  Just like most of who we are in life. 

Mayla, you're very insightful and you put yourself in her shoes well.

But what greater compliment to give someone than to ask them for their wisdom?  How would YOU feel if someone did that? Pretty good, I imagine.  And what were my motives?  Because I wanted to help my students like she helped hers.

If I wasn't a proper recipient, I don't know who was.

That said, I do agree with you that what we learn, especially through hard work, is indeed precious.

[Mayla]

But what greater compliment to give someone than to ask them for their wisdom?  How would YOU feel if someone did that? Pretty good, I imagine.  And what were my motives?  Because I wanted to help my students like she helped hers.

Yes, you are right.  Asking somebody for their wisdom, with the truest of intentions, is indeed a very big compliment.  At the same time, I feel this request is implied when we decide to sign on as somebody's sudent (and, this request is implied in my mind when students sign on with me).  After that, I feel it is up to the teacher to decide exactly what they want to share, and in what ways.  As a teacher, I feel it is my job to determine how much a student needs, wants, and is ready to know -- though, okay, that is not ALWAYS exactly clear.

In terms of you wanting to help your own students like she helped hers, well, can't you do that already ?  Obviously if she helped you, but did not spell everything out, she must have shown you in some way -- you can carry any of that over, plus whatever you add individually.  What other choice do you have other than to help your students in the ways that she helped her's ?

If I wasn't a proper recipient, I don't know who was.

Well, I am sure you were a proper recipient, why else would she have accepted you as a student ?  -- and, maybe she DID impart her biggest secrets she had -- work hard, learn and grow as an individual.  Maybe that's it !  

And, I will add that if she did pass an opportunity to share something with an honest student who was hungry for what she had to share, I think she would regret that.  Why ?  Because I think that kind of gift has its own burn and is something that needs to be shared, or it will eat a person up.

[ted]

At the same time, I hate to say it, but my impression at this point is that sometimes a generous spirit, such as you have, Ted, can be used.

You pay me a fine compliment, Mayla, which I doubt I deserve. It is possibly just that, because of hard work and good luck in other areas, I can afford to completely disassociate my art and my money. If it hurt me to be generous in music maybe I would think twice about doing it. I don't know though. I was always brazenly idealistic as a young man and took risks which horrify me in retrospect. The border between generosity and folly is hard to discern in others, never mind in oneself.

[Mayla]

You pay me a fine compliment, Mayla, which I doubt I deserve. It is possibly just that, because of hard work and good luck in other areas, I can afford to completely disassociate my art and my money. If it hurt me to be generous in music maybe I would think twice about doing it. I don't know though. I was always brazenly idealistic as a young man and took risks which horrify me in retrospect. The border between generosity and folly is hard to discern in others, never mind in oneself.

Well, I guess I will take my chances at both your's and my individual borders and believe what I want to believe about you, at this point  .

[a-sharp]

marco & Bob ~

How 'bout -

'transpiration of inspiration'



...

as to the original topic ... I don't have any big secrets, personally, that I feel are 'worthy' enough to keep to myself - I personally don't think I would have any desires to keep anything secret if I did ... truly want my students to be the best they can be - and constantly am thinking of novel ways to comminicate the same things ... I want them to understand that beyond the nuts and bolts of the activity - music is [to me] about expressing emotions and feeling - so I want them to get to that point, no matter who they are.

that being said, there are some, that I just wouldn't spend the time and effort with focusing on, say specifics of technique, if I thought it would fall on deaf ears, or if they weren't going to DO something with the information - I suppose I would only 'restrict' my teaching in that way - but if they were hard working, curious and genuinely interested - why not share whatever I know [which again, I dont' claim to be any great huge thing]... ?

As was already said too - sometimes it is not always clear what they want to or are ready to learn ... so I find you just toss things out - and sometimes you are surprised with what comes back, no?

[thalberg]

Yes, you are right.  Asking somebody for their wisdom, with the truest of intentions, is indeed a very big compliment.  At the same time, I feel this request is implied when we decide to sign on as somebody's sudent (and, this request is implied in my mind when students sign on with me).  After that, I feel it is up to the teacher to decide exactly what they want to share, and in what ways.  As a teacher, I feel it is my job to determine how much a student needs, wants, and is ready to know -- though, okay, that is not ALWAYS exactly clear.

In terms of you wanting to help your own students like she helped hers, well, can't you do that already ?  Obviously if she helped you, but did not spell everything out, she must have shown you in some way -- you can carry any of that over, plus whatever you add individually.  What other choice do you have other than to help your students in the ways that she helped her's ?

Well, I am sure you were a proper recipient, why else would she have accepted you as a student ?  -- and, maybe she DID impart her biggest secrets she had -- work hard, learn and grow as an individual.  Maybe that's it !  

And, I will add that if she did pass an opportunity to share something with an honest student who was hungry for what she had to share, I think she would regret that.  Why ?  Because I think that kind of gift has its own burn and is something that needs to be shared, or it will eat a person up.

Actually I was not her student.  I was taking her piano pedagogy class.  She talked about repertoire and leveling.  She required us to go to her students' recitals.  I noticed some common traits among her students--sound qualities, etc--and figured that they must be learning those things from her.  I asked her about them, and she said, "wouldn't you like to know!"  And the story went on from there.  I was a doctoral student studying with another teacher.  I could have transferred to her studio, but it would have created a messy political situation for me.  Since it was a pedagogy class, I hoped she'd help me with my teaching.  But she said that the class did not obligate her to share what I was asking for.

[Mayla]

But she said that the class did not obligate her to share what I was asking for.

Well, I suppose you disagree and feel that the class DOES obligate her to somehow try to pour a lifetime (or more  ) of learning and growing into a couple of terms ?  hee hee.

Anyway, what DOES obligate anybody to share themselves with another ? 

[thalberg]

Well, I suppose you disagree and feel that the class DOES obligate her to somehow try to pour a lifetime (or more  ) of learning and growing into a couple of terms ?  hee hee.

Anyway, what DOES obligate anybody to share themselves with another ? 

I asked some questions, she refused to answer.  End of story.

[Mayla]

You are a spicey a'meat-aballa 

Well, first of all, Thalberg, I am not on her side.  I don't even know her.  Second of all, yes I am on her side.  Okay, that's a joke.

Anyway, I don't know.  I am just not sold.  And, I don't really know what you meant by painting a caricature of you, but I can picture it in my head and it's actually pretty cute  ... hee hee.

At the end of the day, there is no police to arrest her for not giving you what you wanted -- so, obviously the mere fact that she is a teacher does NOT obligate her to anything beyond what she has given.  She shared what she is willing to share.