Most Difficult Beethoven Sonata and who played them the best

[bachapprentice]

Which one is the most difficult to play? 

Sonata No. 14 C sharp Minor Op. 27 No. 2 Moonlight 3 Presto Agitato

Performer: Glenn Gould

[Kassaa]

Which one is the most difficult to play? 

Sonata No. 14 C sharp Minor Op. 27 No. 2 Moonlight 3 Presto Agitato

Performer: Glenn Gould

...
That one is not anywhere near the most difficult ones.

[frederic chopin]

The Hammerklavier would be the most difficult.

[bachapprentice]

...
That one is not anywhere near the most difficult ones.

Okay....Maybe you can share with us.  Which one is the most difficult?

[pita bread]

...
That one is not anywhere near the most difficult ones.

But the last movement of the moonlight is pretty insane man

[nightingale11]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2748.msg23723.html#msg23723
(progressive difficulty list for all 32 sonatas)

[pita bread]

109 and 110 harder than 101? Nonsense. I say the hardest sonatas are 106 and 101.

As for who played them best though...

Op. 101 - Gilels (live), Feltsman
Op. 111 - Feltsman, Gilels

[tompilk]

The Hammerklavier would be the most difficult.

ive listened to this - is it only difficult because it is long? it doesn't seem tremendously difficult like any liszt or anything like people make it out to be... and definitely not like the busoni concerto, which i have heard it compared to. Im puzzled to where the difficulty lies. I also don't find it as interesting to listen to either as his other stuff.
Tom

How about 109 - i love this piece. Im playing pathetique at the moment - do i have a chance with 109 first mov.?

[zheer]

. Im puzzled to where the difficulty lies.

   De last MVT.

[pianogeek_cz]

I think the op. 100 and higher sonatas are all pretty insane...

Maybe an access point could be op. 111 1st movement. Big maybe. Depends on how fast you take it. But insane, all the same...

[pita bread]

Here's the thing though, 109 isn't BRUTAL like 106, 101 and maybe 111.

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:
 It seems to exist an overall agreement that the hardest Beethoven's Sonatas are opus 101-106-109-110-111, i.e., the last five. However, opus 53 and opus 57 are part of this group to myself. Furthermore, these seven sonatas have a great gap of difficulty in relation to any of the other, including opus 13, 27/2 or even 31/2 and 81a.

 About opus 29/2 last movement, it's only fast. There is nothing particularly difficult in it.

 About 106, it's difficulty lies not only in its lenght, but just this would be an overwhelming problem.
 Dear Tom, I have nothing to prove, but did you ever done a flawless performance of a 45 minute piece? Even Twinkle Twinkle Little Star may be a challenge if played for this long  . Anyway, I agree with you that Liszt have harder pieces (but not any, just a few). In another thread, I wrote that I consider 106 to be the hardest piece ever written by the time it was composed, but not of the whole history since then.

 Best wishes!

EDIT: Ooops...  I did mean opus 27/2, not 29. Sorry!

[elevateme_returns]

does no one think the 1st movement of les adieux is the hardest? didnt john ogdon say it was one of the pieces he had most trouble with? you have to have played it to know how nasty it is

[jlh]

Could someone who's played both 101 and 111 please explain why 101 is more difficult than 111?    I have not played 101 and am in the process of learning 111...

It seems to me that the Arietta movement would be more difficult than anything 101 has.  I dunno.

[jlh]

does no one think the 1st movement of les adieux is the hardest? didnt john ogdon say it was one of the pieces he had most trouble with? you have to have played it to know how nasty it is

Having played les adieux, I can tell you that it fits in the hands pretty easily once you learn it.  There are trouble spots of course...   Of all the sonatas I've played, this was probably the most fun to perform. 

[mikey6]

Please! Hasn't this been discussed a gazzllion (sp? ) times before and you're still debating the issue! you'd think from all the threads that haven'f come to any sort of definitive answer that there would NOT BE ONE!

[desordre]

 Dear Mikey:

Please! Hasn't this been discussed a gazzllion (sp? ) times before and you're still debating the issue! you'd think from all the threads that haven'f come to any sort of definitive answer that there would NOT BE ONE!

Very true. But it's fun, isn't it? 
 Best wishes!
 

[opus10no2]

About opus 29/2 last movement, it's only fast. There is nothing particularly difficult in it.

Oxymoron.

[mikey6]

About opus 29/2 last movement, it's only fast. There is nothing particularly difficult in it.

Didn't know there was an op.29 sonata in the 1st place

Oxymoron.

I find it relatively easy to play fast so I don't find that an oxymoron at all. Which again proves why these questions are pointless.

[jlh]

I find it relatively easy to play fast so I don't find that an oxymoron at all. Which again proves why these questions are pointless.

Though you said it didn't exist... 

 

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:

Didn't know there was an op.29 sonata in the 1st place

Sorry about the wrong opus number. There is an edit mark, now.

 Dear opus 10:

Oxymoron.

I don't think so. I believe that speed is not a part of the difficulty itself. In my humble opinion, the final speed is a matter of interpretation, and thus, something that you naturally acquire with time, and something that was never a problem to myself.
 In this particular case, the technical issue lies on the arpeggi and broken figuration that occurs throughout. What I want to say is, if you can play it, play it fast it's not a problem.
 Of course that, if you see it another way, I respect it very deeply. That's just my own experience.
 Best!
 
 
 

[etudes]

Could someone who's played both 101 and 111 please explain why 101 is more difficult than 111?    I have not played 101 and am in the process of learning 111...

It seems to me that the Arietta movement would be more difficult than anything 101 has.  I dunno.

try the fugue of 101 ....it is not easy at all...(some spots with double notes in LH and RH)

ive listened to this - is it only difficult because it is long? it doesn't seem tremendously difficult like any liszt or anything like people make it out to be... and definitely not like the busoni concerto, which i have heard it compared to. Im puzzled to where the difficulty lies. I also don't find it as interesting to listen to either as his other stuff.
Tom

How about 109 - i love this piece. Im playing pathetique at the moment - do i have a chance with 109 first mov.?

try to perform it Tom....the first movement have some places that arent pianistic at all....same goes with the fugue...pretty hard to learn,get it in your hands and perform it well...  3rd movement also not easy to push it through 20 mins without losing any textual,structure.it may not stand at the same league of technical difficulty as busoni concerto but it is at the highest level of difficulty duh... trust me Hammerklavier is much more difficult than many liszt pieces (exp..sonata in bminor)

[opus10no2]

Dear fellows: Sorry about the wrong opus number. There is an edit mark, now.

 Dear opus 10: I don't think so. I believe that speed is not a part of the difficulty itself. In my humble opinion, the final speed is a matter of interpretation, and thus, something that you naturally acquire with time, and something that was never a problem to myself.
 In this particular case, the technical issue lies on the arpeggi and broken figuration that occurs throughout. What I want to say is, if you can play it, play it fast it's not a problem.
 Of course that, if you see it another way, I respect it very deeply. That's just my own experience.
 Best!
 
 
 

The thing is, all music , at least from that era, is open to being playing at numerous tempi.
Many performances greatly differ in tempi, and with speed being perhaps THE foremost general difficulty in pianism, it is most relevant.

Now with the varying performance tempos, I don't mean to say the average tempo is difficult, but simply that a tempo like Glenn Gould's creates a difficulty.

[franzliszt2]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH opus10no2 even talks about speed in beethoven sonatas!!! hahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[opus10no2]

But of course.

[verywellmister]

I'm sure the musical difficulty of Op.111 would outweigh the difficulties in Op.101.

[nicco]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH opus10no2 even talks about speed in beethoven sonatas!!! hahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Tempo plays a significant role in beethoven sonatas. One only has to see how many different metronome markings Czerny put on each sonata, wich shows how his meaning changed from time to time.

Faster tempo causes greater diffculty, of course, there is no need to deny it, or claim you can play any speed you want with the same articulation and precision as with slower tempos.

[desordre]

 Dear Opus and Nicco:
 Perhaps I didn't express myself in the proper way. As a matter of interpretation, fast tempi are a choice, not a difficulty. Let me give an example.

 When I study a piece, I generally start at a moderate to slow pace. There is no rule: it's just the speed I can control my hands, their coordination, and my expression and interpretation. As I get acquainted with the piece, I like to explore it in many ways: dynamics, articulation, touch, color, sound, speed/agogics, and so on. Thus, the piece gets several "versions" before I am satisfied with it. Working this way, I never did struggle with metronome: if I find some kind of speed wall, it's just a matter of patience and time, as I did write before.

 In the other hand, I must agree that faster tempi sometimes introduce problems. But think a bit: the problem is not the speed, but what you have to do.
 Example: when I did study Beethoven's opus 2/1 fourth movement, I had a major difficulty with the LH arpeggi, because neither the speed nor the arpeggio itself, but the movement of the LH from one octave to another. It happened no matter how slow or fast I did try. So, when I figured out the proper arm change, this issue was not a problem anymore. And play it fast was not a concerning point either. Another example that occurs me is Chopin's 10/1: the same question, just in the RH.

Faster tempo causes greater diffculty, of course, there is no need to deny it, or claim you can play any speed you want with the same articulation and precision as with slower tempos.

 Nicco, you wrote about articulation and precision in different speeds. In spite the fact I don't want to argue with you, since if that's your approach I do respect it, I must disagree with you. I never use the same articulation in different speeds. As any of the other interpretation choices, it changes from slow to fast. For instance, the kind of staccato I use for a slow phrase is very distinct of a fast one (not only musically, but basically in terms of movement).
 About precision, I should say that - to me - it's again not a matter of technique, but of focus and knowledge of the piece. When I know a work truly by heart and concentration helps, play it fast it's something natural; otherwise, it's just impossible.

 Best wishes!

[opus10no2]

In the other hand, I must agree that faster tempi sometimes introduce problems. But think a bit: the problem is not the speed, but what you have to do.

Well, what you have to do it move fast, and moving correctly is a part of that, facilitating speed.

Speed is not only a choice but also a benchmark, I feel the execution of the notes regardless of tempi is an almost pointless issue, we must marry this difficulty to the difficulty of a certain performance benchmark, and by this standard - GG's moonlight finale has to be a remarkable and difficult achievment to replicate.

[desordre]

 Dear Opus:

(...)
Speed is not only a choice but also a benchmark, I feel the execution of the notes regardless of tempi is an almost pointless issue, we must marry this difficulty to the difficulty of a certain performance benchmark, and by this standard - GG's moonlight finale has to be a remarkable and difficult achievment to replicate.

I think we did reach somewhere: I don't believe standards or benchmarks of performance at all.  If someday I'd include this particular sonata in my repertory, it's possible that I'd have some influence of Gould, for instance, but I don't want, by no means, play like him or whoever, because I'm not him. Well, that's quite obvious...  but behind this is something very true to myself: my interpretations should be mine, otherwise it's best to get some rest and listen to the recordings I have...  The complete live performance of Beethoven's sonatas by Artur Pizarro would be a nice choice, considering our thread.
 Let me reinforce that I don't want to say that's the way things must be. If someone want to pursue a standard professional performing career, it would likely includes competitions and so on, and in this case I think that those "benchmarks", as you put, make sense. However, that's really not my case, and I'm very thankful to those who like such a life, because it's something I never could consider seriously.
 Returning to my argument, it's possible that I don't take speed as a difficult issue because I never fight with it. It comes naturally, and so it is. Whatever, it's just my opinion.
 Best wishes!

[elevateme_returns]

Having played les adieux, I can tell you that it fits in the hands pretty easily once you learn it.  There are trouble spots of course...   Of all the sonatas I've played, this was probably the most fun to perform. 

ive played les adieux too and i think one passage on the second page is really nasty. however some people find different things difficult

[opus10no2]

Let me reinforce that I don't want to say that's the way things must be. If someone want to pursue a standard professional performing career, it would likely includes competitions and so on, and in this case I think that those "benchmarks", as you put, make sense. However, that's really not my case, and I'm very thankful to those who like such a life, because it's something I never could consider seriously.
 Returning to my argument, it's possible that I don't take speed as a difficult issue because I never fight with it. It comes naturally, and so it is. Whatever, it's just my opinion.
 Best wishes!

Well, I mean a benchmark as in, a technical achievment, to make example of the piece as a standard of difficulty.

I can sight-read the whole hammerklavier sonata at a minimum of 1/4 tempo, putting it modestly, and I can apply dynamic subtleties with relative ease at this tempo.

I don't consider learning the notes of a piece a relevant difficulty when it comes to performing it. It is however a relevant thing to have on a repertoire list....like - wow he learned all those notes, he must have a great brain and good memory!
I don't ever see a piece on someone's repertoire list and think 'wow, they must have good technique!', because too many pianists simply play these pieces either slowly or inaccurately - or even worse - BOTH.

[elevateme_returns]

I'm sure the musical difficulty of Op.111 would outweigh the difficulties in Op.101.

why?

[jlh]

try the fugue of 101 ....it is not easy at all...(some spots with double notes in LH and RH)

Have you played both sonatas?  I would really like to hear from people who have played both.

[mikey6]

Though you said it didn't exist... 

 

What didn't exist? I said it in relation to playing 'fast=hard' which may not be the case if one has no problems with speed.

[counterpoint]

The thing with "difficulty" is:

If you are able to play a piece well - it's easy.

If you can't play it well - it's difficult.


So - if you think, a piece you're playing is difficult, that is never a sign of superiority 

[elevateme_returns]

Have you played both sonatas?  I would really like to hear from people who have played both.

for me personally op 101 was harder. but thats just my opinion

[gruffalo]

ive played les adieux too and i think one passage on the second page is really nasty. however some people find different things difficult

1st mvt of les adieux is a complete pregnant dog for me to play. there are certain nasty passages and also a lack of breaks to recover, so its not easy to get past them.

[franzliszt2]

The solution for les adiux evil passage is......Laern it without the thumb. Just miss out the notes you would play with the thumb, and when you miss it, make sure it is super relaxed. Next best thing to do is you know when it breaks into chords and contrary motion? 2nd bar of evil....group it 3 3 2 as oppose to 2 sets of 4. the 3 3 2 helps the position changes. Do NOT accent though, just imagine 3 3 2. Practice it in that grouping. 

[rob47]

everyone forgets op. 2 no. 3 in c major which is extremely difficult

Rubinstein plays it wikid

[dnephi]

It's awesome, but terrifically pianistic, isn't it?

[frederic chopin]

The solution for les adiux evil passage is......Laern it without the thumb. Just miss out the notes you would play with the thumb, and when you miss it, make sure it is super relaxed. Next best thing to do is you know when it breaks into chords and contrary motion? 2nd bar of evil....group it 3 3 2 as oppose to 2 sets of 4. the 3 3 2 helps the position changes. Do NOT accent though, just imagine 3 3 2. Practice it in that grouping.

Yes - I remember playing around with this fiendish passage numerous times when I was in school and your suggestion was the one I arrived at in the end!

[kd]

It's awesome, but terrifically pianistic, isn't it?

Well, perhaps not terrifically, but certainly pianistic. At least the 1st movement sounds a lot harder than it really is, only a few bars in the development are a bit nasty. If you can play arpeggios and broken octaves, there isn't really much more out there.
The 4th movement seems to have some hard jumps and thirds.

[mephisto]

everyone forgets op. 2 no. 3 in c major which is extremely difficult

Rubinstein plays it wikid

I am playing this one now, so why are you beeing so hard on me
What is particulary hard about it? I haven't began to play most of the 4th mvt yet btw.

[kd]

I am playing this one now, so why are you beeing so hard on me
What is particulary hard about it? I haven't began to play most of the 4th mvt yet btw.

I'll try to give a detailed account on difficult places:

Movement I
The thirds in the main theme (bar 1, 3 etc.). It is not very easy to play them evenly with good sound control. You have to work out good fingerings (13-24-13-24 or 23-14-23-14 or something else), some versions of these thirds involve black keys which makes the whole thing a bit more complicated.
There's a nasty trill in bar 23.
The passage in bars 98-107 was very difficult for me. You need to play it with relaxed hand (otherwise it gets tired after 2-3 bars), which is hard because of the stretches you have to make, and sometime you have to play with the thumb on a black key and then a white key between two black keys. It's easy to play wrong notes.
Watch out for the ending. Bar 107 is very awkward.
Bars 243-244. Make sure the LH doesn't play wrong notes.
And of course there are many arpeggios and broken octaves, but once you get the technique for this, you cover many bars.

Movement II
Probably nothing technically challenging if played with good sound and tone control. Might be difficult to create a convincing interpretation though (good phrasing etc.)

Movement III
Not very difficult, but clarity with articulation and dynamics is needed, and that also involves accurate jumps (like in bars 28-33, 55-60). The trio is arpeggios most of the time, but two or three bars may be uncomfortable. It is advised to find secure fingering for the G7 downward run. (Some use 4-3-2-1, some 3-2-1-4, others have different ideas).

Movement IV
Of course the main issue is to keep your hand tensionfree while moving to play the chords. But there are a few traps in certain places. Bars 14-15 are awkward (again, the issue of playing with thumb on black keys and using 4-5-4-3-4 to play 16ths evenly). Bars 29-34 and 40-44 might turn out to be hard for the LH. Make sure you are comfortable with the RH in bar 39. In bars 54, 56, 58, 60 sforzando refers only to one note, not the whole octave. THe jumps in bars 86-95 are usually said to be very tricky (and wrong notes immediately stick out). Then, you have the horrible grace-notes in bar 170 (and the thirds in the neighborhood). Some issues mentioned before reappear between 200 and 235. And you have bars 269-279 which are deceptively hard to play accurately and without tension. And finally, the double trill in 290-291.

Not scared after this long lecture? Hope not  Have fun with the sonata.

[mephisto]

True I have EXACTLY the same porblems as you describe there(as well as a problem with those broken octaves). But hopefully with some patience and hard work, it will all work out

[jlh]

What didn't exist? I said it in relation to playing 'fast=hard' which may not be the case if one has no problems with speed.

Sontata Op. 29...

[kd]

Sontata Op. 29...

I suppose sontata doesn't exist either... 

[jlh]

you're right... they BOTH are fictional...

[frederic chopin]

you're right... they BOTH are fictional...

I don't know about that - it could be an amalgamation of sonata and cantata.