Chopin Op. 25/6

[xyz2006tor]

Hey all,
I was looking at this etude and trying to read through it, but I just could not play the thirds at tempo evenly. Is there a specific motion to play those thirds/a specific way of hitting the keys? I would appreciate your help--I'm trying to learn this etude and I dont want to learn it in an irreversibly bad way.

[franzliszt2]

This etude just requires a lot of patient work. It will take ages. The speed will come, don't force that at all. Do not concern yourself with the speed. The opening is the hardest. It has to be like a leaf blowing in a dark field. So quiet, and with no obvious pulse.If you can get the opening perfect, you are sorted.

As for the rest just get a solid fingering, and make it perfectly legato. Keep a carefull eye on the position of the wrist and arm. Keep an incredibly light touch. It's an incredibly personbal etude, I've played it to people who have played it very differently to look at, yet we sound similar.

Good luck with it, it's a great piece to work on. Try studying it alongside op10no2. They boyth help eachother.

[dnephi]

Hey, FL, quick Q.  My edition has some fingers with the thumb on two consecutive white keys (IE, E-F and B-C.)  Besides that, the fingering works great, but is it right?  Can that be legato?

[ramseytheii]

Hey all,
I was looking at this etude and trying to read through it, but I just could not play the thirds at tempo evenly. Is there a specific motion to play those thirds/a specific way of hitting the keys? I would appreciate your help--I'm trying to learn this etude and I dont want to learn it in an irreversibly bad way.

There is no specific motion for this etude, or for any other Chopin etude.  You do however need a good fingering (Cortot offers several possibilities, and I believe Godowsky does as well) and good general usage of the limbs. 

Remember that the hand has to be always centered on a focal point in the palm.

The elbow has to be able to, at any time, move slightly and subtly clockwise or counter-clockwise (not "up" or "down" or "left" or "right", the elbow moves 3-dimensionally).

The outer part of the hand, the fleshy part of the palm at the pinky, is the strongest and balances the enormous power of the thumb.

You also have to always feel a personal centering point, no matter how far or close apart the hands are.

Lightness of touch is absolutely essential for this etude, so practice stroking the thirds as one would pet a cat, or as it has been described of Beethoven's touch, "dusting the keys."

For practicing, you should practice not only getting the thirds right, but getting them right in conjunction with a melodic left hand.  So much "stuttering" in this piece is not even due to the difficulty of the thirds, it's the coordination between the two hands.

You should experiment with articulations: in the thirds playing the bottom voice staccato, top voice legato, and vice versa.  For more of this, I recommend looking at the Cortot practice edition.

Without question, you should practice this piece in transpositions, first the easiest (to transpose but not play) in G minor, and then going outward from there.  It is so important with a piece of this difficulty to gain perspective which you will never do by playing it over and over again in the same way.

(This is also based on the Busoni theory of making something much more difficult than it actually is.)


This is not even the "tip of the iceberg" as Bernhard would say, but I wanted to offer some advice that has nothing to do with a "proper motion" to play thirds, because there is no such thing.  Just as in Alexander Technique, there is no "posture' but "acture," here there is no "position," only "action."

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Hey, FL, quick Q.  My edition has some fingers with the thumb on two consecutive white keys (IE, E-F and B-C.)  Besides that, the fingering works great, but is it right?  Can that be legato?

I would definitely not do this fingering, I think it is more intended for pianos in Chopin's time, which had smaller keys and al ighter touch.  Instead, before each set of consecutive white keys, slide the second finger from the black key down.  C# - C- B would be fingering (in the lower voice) 2-2-1, and F#-F-E the same.

Going up the same, but from reverse, Bflat-B-C, 2-2-1, and E-flat-E-F

Walter Ramsey

[faulty_damper]

Here is a great fingering for the opening.  It works wonders, like Wonder Woman on speed:

Place 2 on B and 3(4) on D#.
Then place 1 on C# and 5 on E.

... and you have instant speed!

The fingering Chopin wrote down is too difficult to execute effectively.  This alternative requires significantly less practice.  It is also the recommended fingering by Paul Bodura-Skoda in the Vienna Urtext Edition along with other fingerings.  It even includes Godowsky's
"remarkable" fingering for a passage.

[faulty_damper]

Hey, FL, quick Q.  My edition has some fingers with the thumb on two consecutive white keys (IE, E-F and B-C.)  Besides that, the fingering works great, but is it right?  Can that be legato?

Chopin wrote this fingering.  The composer can't possibly be wrong...

This 1-1 fingering works if it is ascending much better than when it is descending because you can easily slide the thumb onto the next key.  If it is desceding, I agree with Walter Ramsey on the suggested fingering.

1-1 can be played legato.  This applies even without dampers.

[ramseytheii]

Chopin wrote this fingering.  The composer can't possibly be wrong...

This 1-1 fingering works if it is ascending much better than when it is descending because you can easily slide the thumb onto the next key.  If it is desceding, I agree with Walter Ramsey on the suggested fingering.

1-1 can be played legato.  This applies even without dampers.

I object in principle to "The composer can't possibly be wrong."  Anytime you turn off your faculty of reason and rationality is a bad thing.  Don't expect Chopin to do all your work for you.  Like I mentioned before, he wrote fingering based on the meeting point between the hand and his instrument.  His instrument was different from ours in that it had smaller keys and a lighter touch; a lot of his fingerings have to be changed to adapt to modern isntruments.  Obviously fingering is personal, but that means you have to be able to justify it on personal grounds, not just, the composer wrote it. 

Walter Ramsey

[franzliszt2]

Chopin wrote this fingering.  The composer can't possibly be wrong...

This 1-1 fingering works if it is ascending much better than when it is descending because you can easily slide the thumb onto the next key.  If it is desceding, I agree with Walter Ramsey on the suggested fingering.

1-1 can be played legato.  This applies even without dampers.

1 1 can be played legato at what tempo though? Play it seperate voices and you'll hear that the thumb 1) is not legato and 2) bumps and slows it down and 3)creates an accent.

Do you want that?

[pita bread]

Chopin wrote this fingering.  The composer can't possibly be wrong...

This 1-1 fingering works if it is ascending much better than when it is descending because you can easily slide the thumb onto the next key.  If it is desceding, I agree with Walter Ramsey on the suggested fingering.

I find the exact opposite, sliding the 2nd finger works better ascending while bouncing the thumb works better descending.

It even includes Godowsky's
"remarkable" fingering for a passage.

What passage are you refering to? If it's the chromatic runs, I find that fingering really awkward and uncomfortable.

[franzliszt2]

I find the exact opposite, sliding the 2nd finger works better ascending while bouncing the thumb works better descending.

What passage are you refering to? If it's the chromatic runs, I find that fingering really awkward and uncomfortable.

But sliding is obviously faster. There is no argument against it. I found it awkward coming down at first. Give it time, youll get used to it and never look back

[ramseytheii]

But sliding is obviously faster. There is no argument against it. I found it awkward coming down at first. Give it time, youll get used to it and never look back

Usually I chalk up fingering to personal preference, but in this case I have to agree, it is universally much better to slide the second finger from black to white both going up and going down.  But like I said, Cortot and Godowsky, between the two of them, offer several fingering sets for chromatic (minor) thirds, and it's worth your time to look at all of them.

Walter Ramsey