Atonality becoming tonal?

[quantum]

To add to the philosophical discussions we have been having recently I pose a question.

Does atonal music begin to sound tonal once one is educated to it?

[retrouvailles]

I think it can. Some atonal pieces can sound very complex and disordered with regards to tonality to a person that hasn't been exposed to it. However, once a person becomes familiar with it, it is possible to find some order in it and a potential tonal center.

However, before going further, one must understand that the terms "tonal" and "atonal" are extreme opposites. Many compositions that people may call "atonal" are really in the middle somewhere, which might mean that the tonal center might be harder to spot, but is still there. Even for a really complex piece like a composition by Finnissy, one might be able to argue that it has a tonal center somewhere (I'm not saying anyone would take your word for it).

That's enough ranting for me. Point being, I think one can argue a piece's potential tonality if they are mor familiar with the genre.

[prometheus]

I hear no difference between atonal and tonal music. At least not in the sense as I once did. There used to be a clear signal to me that there was something wrong with atonal music. This it totally gone.

I can't hear the difference anymore.

[mikey6]

Isn't tonality key relationships, and in a classical sense, movement towards the dominant (or another related key)? Is this what atonality cannot possibly do if there is no tonic key?

[counterpoint]

Isn't tonality key relationships, and in a classical sense, movement towards the dominant (or another related key)? Is this what atonality cannot possibly do if there is no tonic key?

The basic principle of tonal melody and harmony is, that the chords and lines are based on a diatonic scale, which may change in piece of course. I doubt that you need a tonica/dominant relations, to get a tonal (or better say: diatonic) feeling. Debussy never wrote atonal, but he didn't care much about cadenza progressions.

Atonal means for me:

a)  the notes don't have a melodical, but sort of paint spot function

b)  consonant chords/figures are avoided as far as possible

c) perhaps even more important than the pitches: the rhythm is as unregular as possible

[mephisto]

The basic principle of tonal melody and harmony is, that the chords and lines are based on a diatonic scale, which may change in piece of course. I doubt that you need a tonica/dominant relations, to get a tonal (or better say: diatonic) feeling. Debussy never wrote atonal, but he didn't care much about cadenza progressions.

Atonal means for me:

a)  the notes don't have a melodical, but sort of paint spot function

b)  consonant chords/figures are avoided as far as possible

c) perhaps even more important than the pitches: the rhythm is as unregular as possible

You should start listening to Dallapiccola. His music is atonal, melodic and often consonant.

[counterpoint]

You should start listening to Dallapiccola. His music is atonal, melodic and often consonant.

Yes, you are right. Dallapiccola's music is melodic and often consonant. Btw. he is a very good composer, I like his music!

But is his music atonal? I don't think so.

[mephisto]

I don't know, but I think so.

This is what wikipedia(quasi-reliable) sais:

Luigi Dallapiccola (February 3, 1904 – February 19, 1975) was an Italian composer known for his lyrical twelve-tone compositions.

Twelve-tone is atonal right?

[counterpoint]

Twelve-tone is atonal right?

Twelve-tone can be atonal, but it can also be quite tonal, it depends on the harmonies and melodies, you form out of the source material. If you want, you can compose a Bach-like Choral from a twelve-tone row.

[prometheus]

Bach has a fugue with a '12 tone' subject.