Liszt - Sonetto del Petrarca No.104 ( need help)

[gruffalo]

Hi. I recently had a chance to record a piece that i need to perform in about 3 weeks. I had just brought it back to the fingers a couple of hours before my friend recorded it for me and i have been working on it more since then (this was around 2 weeks ago). There are some technical problems and also structural problems, but another big problem is that i don't seem to feel anything anymore whilst playing this piece. I can't seem to emote much and I also felt quite bored listening to this recording. This is unusual for me because i usually find this is the problem after having played a piece for a long period of time, but i only just brought this back. Can anyone suggest what i can do?  i would also really appreciate all other comments and criticisms.

Gruff

[gruffalo]

also, could i have some suggestions for practicing the difficult passages? the main right hand run in the climax and the double note descending passages are very weak.

Gruff

[pianowolfi]

The first part of the introduction could be more agitato, somehow I want to hear much more excitement in this. The crescendo that begins in m.3 just seems to collapse before it reaches its culmination (I use Henle edition btw, not the one shown above) And the accents could stand out more. Build the tension and the expectations. You know what is following, the audience doesn't, probably. Try to make the listeners fully open and accessible. So there would be more contrast between the agitato and the adagio part. And you would have more space for CELEBRATING the theme broadly. Extensively . M.13 more crescendo. In m. 15 you could bring out the left hand cantilena even more I think. It's forte and it could be more intense. But okay I think you might be right because you are aware of the parts afterwards. Anyway, a bit more sonority would be great here M.21: cantabile con passione senza slentare=singable with passion, without slowing down. And Forte.

 You play VERY beautifully in general, I enjoy it very much. But there is more in this piece than just cosy beauty, as comfortable as it may be often. For instance m. 46 it says stringendo and vibrato. Well you can't do a vibrato on the piano, but it seems to me that your whole person may vibrate there somehow All in all it sounds a bit too introspective and tame. Petrarch fell in love with a woman, incurably, passionately. His whole life changed through that and he became the great poet as which he got famous! I found a translation of the sonnet 104

WARFARE I cannot wage, yet know not peace;
I fear, I hope, I burn, I freeze again;
Mount to the skies, then bow to earth my face;
Grasp the whole world, yet nothing can obtain.
Pris'ner of one who deigns not to detain,
I am not made his own, nor giv'n release.
Love slays me not, nor yet will he unchain;
Nor life allot, nor stop my harm's increase.

Sightless I see my fair; though mute, I mourn;
I scorn existence, yet I court its stay;
Detest myself, and for another burn;
By grief I'm nurtured; and, though tearful, gay;
Death I despise, and life alike I hate:
Such, lady, do you make my wretched state!
 

This is the source of inspiration Liszt had when he wrote this piece. It is passionate to death, in a sort of restrained desire. Argh I haven't yet read so much of Petrarch so far but it seems that just writing this comment has awakened my interest. Well and if the thought of this poem and Petrarch's unfortunate love story is not inspiring, what is inspiring then? 

[gruffalo]

The first part of the introduction could be more agitato, somehow I want to hear much more excitement in this. The crescendo that begins in m.3 just seems to collapse before it reaches its culmination (I use Henle edition btw, not the one shown above) And the accents could stand out more. Build the tension and the expectations. You know what is following, the audience doesn't, probably. Try to make the listeners fully open and accessible. So there would be more contrast between the agitato and the adagio part. And you would have more space for CELEBRATING the theme broadly. Extensively . M.13 more crescendo. In m. 15 you could bring out the left hand cantilena even more I think. It's forte and it could be more intense. But okay I think you might be right because you are aware of the parts afterwards. Anyway, a bit more sonority would be great here M.21: cantabile con passione senza slentare=singable with passion, without slowing down. And Forte.

 You play VERY beautifully in general, I enjoy it very much. But there is more in this piece than just cosy beauty, as comfortable as it may be often. For instance m. 46 it says stringendo and vibrato. Well you can't do a vibrato on the piano, but it seems to me that your whole person may vibrate there somehow All in all it sounds a bit too introspective and tame. Petrarch fell in love with a woman, incurably, passionately. His whole life changed through that and he became the great poet as which he got famous! I found a translation of the sonnet 104

WARFARE I cannot wage, yet know not peace;
I fear, I hope, I burn, I freeze again;
Mount to the skies, then bow to earth my face;
Grasp the whole world, yet nothing can obtain.
Pris'ner of one who deigns not to detain,
I am not made his own, nor giv'n release.
Love slays me not, nor yet will he unchain;
Nor life allot, nor stop my harm's increase.

Sightless I see my fair; though mute, I mourn;
I scorn existence, yet I court its stay;
Detest myself, and for another burn;
By grief I'm nurtured; and, though tearful, gay;
Death I despise, and life alike I hate:
Such, lady, do you make my wretched state!
 

This is the source of inspiration Liszt had when he wrote this piece. It is passionate to death, in a sort of restrained desire. Argh I haven't yet read so much of Petrarch so far but it seems that just writing this comment has awakened my interest. Well and if the thought of this poem and Petrarch's unfortunate love story is not inspiring, what is inspiring then? 

Thanks very much for your comments. I agree with you there on most things. i used to do the opening much more forcefully, but for some reason this time i didnt (i only had one take). Reading the poem was very useful and i agree that it is not just a pretty piece. it is supposed to be very passionate and powerful at the same time. im not sure the recording brought out the best in dynamics (was a mini-disc recording), but i agree that there was not much emotional fire in this recording. that part hopefully will be sorted when i feel motivated to play this piece as i once did before.

i feel like after the main climax part and after the Db (C#) major passage i dont really know where the piece is going. do you have any suggestions as to how i can find movement in this part? i feel sort of lost at this point and dont feel much direction.

thanks for all your comments.

Gruff

[rachfan]

Hi Gruff,

If you go back to page 15 of this forum, look for my recording of this piece there.  Once you click on that, inside you'll find a thread following my recording that also includes renditions posted there by donjuan and pianststrongbad, which make for interesting comparisons and contrasts.   Among the three (and your own recording), you might hear some different approaches that might be of interest.

[zheer]

   As non Liszt fan ,i thought you played this piece very well.

[pianowolfi]

Thanks very much for your comments. I agree with you there on most things. i used to do the opening much more forcefully, but for some reason this time i didnt (i only had one take). Reading the poem was very useful and i agree that it is not just a pretty piece. it is supposed to be very passionate and powerful at the same time. im not sure the recording brought out the best in dynamics (was a mini-disc recording), but i agree that there was not much emotional fire in this recording. that part hopefully will be sorted when i feel motivated to play this piece as i once did before.

i feel like after the main climax part and after the Db (C#) major passage i dont really know where the piece is going. do you have any suggestions as to how i can find movement in this part? i feel sort of lost at this point and dont feel much direction.

thanks for all your comments.

Gruff

Well in principle I like very much how you play this last part, I think it depends of how you have played the stringendo and "vibrato" before. "Dolce dolente", tenderly sad.  Perhaps one can relate it to this mixture between proudness and resignation:

By grief I'm nurtured; and, though tearful, gay;
Death I despise, and life alike I hate:
Such, lady, do you make my wretched state!

And perhaps even a bit of anger, "choler" in the pp passages, a secret, whispering, not fully admitted anger...that may keep the tension. Just thinking
 

[gruffalo]

i agree. i had this piece nailed emotionally (well, i guess we cant nail it perfectly, but i had some amazing comments from certain members of the audience that i performed in front of), and i have just lost my sense of inspiration for this piece. when i recorded this and for a while after, my mind was literally elsewhere whilst playing this.

anyway, i read the poem through and it has really helped. im now almost 100% engaged in the music when playing through it. losing this musical feel for the piece happened once before and i just read about the story of the piece (not the poem itself) and i created my own story about this small piece of information that i found and my teacher said whatever i was thinking was working really well.

it feels even better now knowing the poem itself, so thanks again. its really annoying how i can make everything fall apart (e.g. dynamics, expression, phrasing, direction etc.) just because i am not motivated to play something. does this happen to anyone else? it rarely happens to me, but has happened twice with this piece, which is a bit worrying.

thanks for your comment Zheer. i hope you will enjoy it more when i next record it (probably either another small recording or one from the concert).

Gruff

[pianowolfi]

it feels even better now knowing the poem itself, so thanks again. its really annoying how i can make everything fall apart (e.g. dynamics, expression, phrasing, direction etc.) just because i am not motivated to play something. does this happen to anyone else? it rarely happens to me, but has happened twice with this piece, which is a bit worrying.

I wouldn't worry too much. Everyone gets sometimes at this point. Perhaps even with every piece. And after all, you know when I listened the first time to your recording I just enjoyed it. And I thought: "what should I say critical about this?" Because everything is there. A beautiful tone, a very good phrasing, a fine cantabile and so on. I even felt like needing to force myself into the more "critical" mood. hee hee And then it sucked me in and I learned a lot about this piece (and about Petrarch) I actually didn't know yet before.

[gruffalo]

I wouldn't worry too much. Everyone gets sometimes at this point. Perhaps even with every piece. And after all, you know when I listened the first time to your recording I just enjoyed it. And I thought: "what should I say critical about this?" Because everything is there. A beautiful tone, a very good phrasing, a fine cantabile and so on. I even felt like needing to force myself into the more "critical" mood. hee hee And then it sucked me in and I learned a lot about this piece (and about Petrarch) I actually didn't know yet before.

ah cool. so you haven't studied the piece before? that's strange because a lot of the things you said were things that my teacher pointed out to me whilst i was studying this with him a while back.

[pianowolfi]

ah cool. so you haven't studied the piece before? that's strange because a lot of the things you said were things that my teacher pointed out to me whilst i was studying this with him a while back.

No I did actually not study it yet. But it's on my (long) list. I heard it first from Arrau in a video and wanted to learn it but never did.