The best way to play a single note as powerfully as possible?

[opus10no2]

The most notable example of this being required is at the end of Chopin's op28no24.

I have found that the best way to do this, is to VERY QUICKLY depress the surrounding white keys without sounding them, then when the D is to be hit, SMASH down with the fist as hard as possible.

I don't think this can be done that effectively with the first D strike, but there is certainly time for it on the next 2.

The basic idea is that a fist smash is the most effective way of producing volume, with the only obstacle being the accuracy required, and this obstacle is mostly taken away by the silencer fingers, though be careful not to break them .

[thalberg]

Can't you think of a less sexual way to do it?




(for those of you who don't get this, read the pianistimo self awareness thread)

[lostinidlewonder]

Why not just use a sledge hammer instead of fist? You just gotta learn to hold the hammer between your teeth while you play so that you have quick access to it... you don't want to miss time your final last notes.

[daniloperusina]

I think you are going in the wrong direction, so to speak...
To help you, I found this Kung-Fu site, that convincingly explains that it's about speed, not force per se. She is speaking about breaking wood, but it should apply equally to very loud fortissimo playing too. Ideally, you should probably use the side of your palm as well on those D's. Here it goes:

"It's all about Force. A force is a push or a pull that can speed something up, slow something down or change its direction. When I move my hand very quickly for a strike, the wood (which is rigid) must exert a force on my hand to slow it down. Because the wood is brittle and does not bend or compress very much, it has to do this very quickly. To slow my hand down in a fraction of a second means there is a very large deceleration and a very large force acting on my hand. (this is because of Newton's second law of motion) The maximum force the wood can exert on my hand depends on the strength of its fibres. If the force required to stop my hand is larger than the strength of the wood, the wood will break."

So, you should probably practice speed-hitting, and with time you'll achieve a good forte!

 

[invictious]

Have you seen those 12 year olds in China, in those Shaolin Temples? Do you know what they can do? They can do a 'fingerstand' with only 2 fingers. Yes using 2 fingers, to support their whole weight, upside down.

Learn from them?
or since F=ma
Either get fatter fingers or go for more acceleration.

[franzliszt2]

The most notable example of this being required is at the end of Chopin's op28no24.

I have found that the best way to do this, is to VERY QUICKLY depress the surrounding white keys without sounding them, then when the D is to be hit, SMASH down with the fist as hard as possible.

I don't think this can be done that effectively with the first D strike, but there is certainly time for it on the next 2.

The basic idea is that a fist smash is the most effective way of producing volume, with the only obstacle being the accuracy required, and this obstacle is mostly taken away by the silencer fingers, though be careful not to break them .

Retard

[cloches_de_geneve]

The most notable example of this being required is at the end of Chopin's op28no24.
I have found that the best way to do this, is to VERY QUICKLY depress the surrounding white keys without sounding them, then when the D is to be hit, SMASH down with the fist as hard as possible.

Apparently the youtube video with the hysterical Liszt-Orage performance* has inspired you to new insights.


* http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,26270.0.html

[jlh]

I think you are going in the wrong direction, so to speak...
To help you, I found this Kung-Fu site, that convincingly explains that it's about speed, not force per se. She is speaking about breaking wood, but it should apply equally to very loud fortissimo playing too. Ideally, you should probably use the side of your palm as well on those D's. Here it goes:

"It's all about Force. A force is a push or a pull that can speed something up, slow something down or change its direction. When I move my hand very quickly for a strike, the wood (which is rigid) must exert a force on my hand to slow it down. Because the wood is brittle and does not bend or compress very much, it has to do this very quickly. To slow my hand down in a fraction of a second means there is a very large deceleration and a very large force acting on my hand. (this is because of Newton's second law of motion) The maximum force the wood can exert on my hand depends on the strength of its fibres. If the force required to stop my hand is larger than the strength of the wood, the wood will break."

So, you should probably practice speed-hitting, and with time you'll achieve a good forte!

 

Agreed... you can get more volume with a karate chop than with a boxing glove.   

[mcgillcomposer]

...use the force...

[counterpoint]

I have found that the best way to do this, is to VERY QUICKLY depress the surrounding white keys without sounding them, then when the D is to be hit, SMASH down with the fist as hard as possible.

That's a funny idea. Very original 

But - I don't believe, power of tone needs raw force. You can get the same effect just by hitting a key extreme fast. It's the velocity which makes the sound - not the weight.

[nomis]

Arrau used fingers 3-4-5 as a wedge to play those final Ds.

[jabbz]

Probably use several fingers, such as 2-3 or something like that.

[guendola]

Be careful when trying the more effective methods. When I was 12 I had a fit on the piano and broke 8 hammers by hitting the keys with my fists.

[opus10no2]

Arrau used fingers 3-4-5 as a wedge to play those final Ds.

Indeed, this inspired me to try and find a better way.

Basically, you can do different things, but the MORE FORCE you exert, the more dangerous the accuracy...so even with arrau's fingering, I'd use the silencer tech too.

Retard

Please explicate, you f**king prick. 

[marik]

SMASH down with the fist as hard as possible.

Have mercy, Opus  --

The piano also feels pain.

If you don't care about this, at least have pity for the poor audience...

[opus10no2]

If you don't care about this, at least have pity for the poor audience...

Oh, why?

[rob47]

[marik]

Oh, why?

Because it will produce such an ugly sound that people (at least those who understand) will just pull their heads deep into shoulders...

But if that is your intention, then by all means. Go for it!

[opus10no2]

Because it will produce such an ugly sound that people (at least those who understand) will just pull their heads deep into shoulders...

But if that is your intention, then by all means. Go for it!

So you are saying there is such a thing as too loud?

I don't think it will break the string, and actually, when bass notes are struck with extreme force, their sound is very penetrating, beautiful, and powerful.

Are you suggesting I refrain from full penetration?

[opus10no2]

[marik]

So you are saying there is such a thing as too loud?

No, I am not.

If I wanted to say "too loud", I'd say "too loud".

I think I was very clear when I said "ugly".

I don't think those two are synonyms.

Are you suggesting I refrain from full penetration?

I am not suggesting anything.

Once again, if I wanted to say "refrain from full penetration", I'd say so, but I did not.
Moreover, I in fact, would highly suggest "full penetration" for nice, deep, loud, and beautiful bass.

The problem is you from the beginning were talking about SMASHING.
From what I understand those two are different things.
 
You see, the way you treat the piano, that way it will responds.

Hopefully, now it is more clear.

[opus10no2]

Did you miss a science lesson? 

Play it with your phallus, play it with your fist, it will produce the same sound if struck at the same velocity.

[jlh]

Did you miss a science lesson? 

Play it with your phallus, play it with your fist, it will produce the same sound if struck at the same velocity.

I doubt your phallus can do justice to what "smashing" the key would do...   

True, velocity is key, but think of the different surfaces that could play a note...  a hammer would be ideal for smashing a note and making a big noise, right?  What's the problem there?  The problem is that (besides the fact that you'd only be able to play 1-2 notes) the surface of the hammer is so hard that the sound would be very ugly as a result of a very high velocity.  There is a limit to strings' sound level they can accurately produce when struck, so if your velocity is higher than that limit, the sound will be distorted.  True, some people won't notice a distorted bass, but it can happen. 

That's also why to play beautifully it's usually better to play with the pads of your fingers than the tips.

[opus10no2]

Well, I see there must be a limit, because a string can break, but the noise of the fingers or first hitting the key is irrelevant, you mean the sound of the vibrating string stuck by the forceful hammer?

So basically, there IS a too loud?

I don't think you're saying that, you're saying there will be a distortion, but that distortion may be a welcome byproduct , who is to say it isn't a beautiful sound?

[marik]

Did you miss a science lesson? 

Play it with your phallus, play it with your fist, it will produce the same sound if struck at the same velocity.

Opus,

Two options: yes or no.

Serious question:

Do you have enough intelligence to understand that your answer has nothing to do with what I wrote?

[opus10no2]

One could argue that I have too much intelligence  .

I immedietly rebuked your 'faith' in tone with my science.

god won't win this debate 

[marik]

Yes, or no?

[opus10no2]

Ok, yes, if you use protection.

Some tan lotion maybe too 

[invictious]

To be honest, all you have control over a piano key is the velocity at it which the hammer strikes the strings, that's pretty much it.
If you bang it hard, then you get it loud, if you bang it soft, you get it soft. That's pretty much control over tone we get in piano, unlike stringed instruments. However, that doesn't mean we should give up the pursuit for tone control. Most of the 'colorful' playing comes from experience and personal interpretation of the piece.

If you bang the key, it will just be blaring and loud. Now, if you do that in some other pieces (like some banging piece in Bartok), then it wouldn't matter, but if you do it in a very lyrical piece, let's say a Mozart Sonata, then of course, it would be ugly.

[jlh]

Well, I see there must be a limit, because a string can break, but the noise of the fingers or first hitting the key is irrelevant, you mean the sound of the vibrating string stuck by the forceful hammer?

So basically, there IS a too loud?

I don't think you're saying that, you're saying there will be a distortion, but that distortion may be a welcome byproduct , who is to say it isn't a beautiful sound?

There is a too loud, but it all depends on what the context is...  How loud are the other notes?  You can't think just about one note and base a theory about loudness -- otherwise we could all play piano with a broomstick handle. 

In the case of Chopin's 24th Prelude, the end has only a few notes, and the pedal is helping hold the other notes.  How risky would it be to silently push down the surrounding notes while you prepare to smash the last note?  Not only that, but in order to silently push them down you'd have to be very sensitive, taking away the bravura needed to sell the end of the piece. 

To do what you're suggesting will ruin the piece.  Not to mention the fact that if you miss the note with your fist, you might break your fingers holding down the other keys...

[jlh]

Look what Schiff does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSmHmnaLIAM

In addition to what he does, I would personally wedge my thumb under the first knuckle of my 3rd finger to support it. 

You can get amazing results for powerful notes that way.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Look what Schiff does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSmHmnaLIAM

With all due reverence for Schiff (an amazing musician, possibly a genius) -- what he does here is unconvincing if not outright ridiculous. Once the key is struck, he can "vibrate" with his finger right and left, and as much as he likes, it won't make any difference to the sound he just produced. Besides, Schiff is not really the model when it comes to raw power.

It would be interesting to see what Richter did with that last note.

[jlh]

With all due reverence for Schiff (an amazing musician, possibly a genius) -- what he does here is unconvincing if not outright ridiculous. Once the key is struck, he can "vibrate" with his finger right and left, and as much as he likes, it won't make any difference to the sound he just produced. Besides, Schiff is not really the model when it comes to raw power.

It would be interesting to see what Richter did with that last note.

Yes, I noticed that as well... I wasn't referring to that nonsense. 

I was referring to the way he used the 3rd finger for power.  I also mentioned reinforcing it with the thumb.  Here you can see how Pollini does exactly this technique.  His later recording of this may actually have more power, but here he demonstrates what I mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfqKBrf-S-g

[richard black]

Definitely, play it with the phallus.

Worked for Friedrich Gulda.

 

[jlh]

Definitely, play it with the phallus.

Worked for Friedrich Gulda.

 

HAHA your wish is my command!

http://www.coolbuddy.com/videos/video_clip.asp?id=756