Beethoven Op. 2 No. 1

[mcgillcomposer]

Let's start with the first 8 bears of the opening movement. Who can give me the standard formal analysis?

1) 2 bar basic idea that is seperated into two parts: rocket theme (f minor arpeggio), and the triplet figure...harmony = I

2)

[pianistimo]

subject and countersubject here?  sometimes it's just grouped into theme I isn't it?  why spend all this time?  i have dinner to cook. 

*actually - i like this.  i'll be right back.  i have to get out my papers out of the closet.

ok. first a little background info:  beethoven dedicated his first three sonatas to haydn; 'indeed, the themes and their treatment reveal his debt to the older composer.  but, his sonatas all have four movements instead of the usual three.  moreover, in the second and third sonatas beethoven replaced the minuet with the more dynamic scherzo, a practice which he consistently used from then on.  his choice of the uncommon key of f minor for the first sonata may have been suggested by a cpe bach sonata in that same key.  but beethoven's extensive use of the minor mode and the bold modulations in the first three sonatas are highly individual traits.  (? haydn got pretty bold with the 'creation,' didn't he?)

[mcgillcomposer]

subject and countersubject here?  sometimes it's just grouped into theme I isn't it?  why spend all this time?  i have dinner to cook. 

*actually - i like this.  i'll be right back.  i have to get out my papers out of the closet.

Just describe what happens:

1) mm. 1-2
2) mm. 3-4
3) mm. 5-6
4) mm. 7-8

[pianistimo]

just a minute - i can't find my score.  might have to print another one.  yikes.  i have papers all over.  i printed out the nutcracker suite arr. by stepan esipoff,  the skylark by glinka, kinderscenen (godowsky transc), and pavane of faure - and a few other things.  i didn't hole punch anything.  where is beethoven? ah.  i found it.

ok.  we have motive 'a' and another two bar motive in  V of the same 'a' = 'question.'  it makes you wonder 'which key are we in?' kind of feel. 

motive b reestablishes f minor (answer) - but then goes off into something at the end of the answer.  so it's basically an answered question that leaves room for another question that might be unanswered.

[pianowolfi]

just a minute - i can't find my score.  might have to print another one.  yikes.  i have papers all over.  i printed out the nutcracker suite arr. by stepan esipoff,  the skylark by glinka, kinderscenen (godowsky transc), and pavane of faure - and a few other things.  i didn't hole punch anything.  where is beethoven?

On the piano. I saw it.

[pianistimo]

ok. this whole question/answer ends on V - so the real start of the sonata (beyond this prelude or whatever you call it) is measure 9 which is surprisingly in c minor but keeps being unstable - not predicting any return to f minor.  strange, ehh.  it almost seems like a development before you had the exposition.

[mcgillcomposer]

ok. this whole question/answer ends on V - so the real start of the sonata (beyond this prelude or whatever you call it) is measure 9 which is surprisingly in c minor.  strange, ehh.  it almost seems like a development before you had the exposition.

I see why you are saying this, but I wouldn't call it a prelude. It is, in essence, the first theme. m. 9 begins the transition (which includes a modulation) to the second theme...an inversion of the opening rocket theme.

[pianistimo]

but, we have a 'point of articulation' which is very unusual in a sonata (i think for most) - where we suddenly have a fermata.  it's not long enough to be called a prelude - but there's another name for it.

as i see it - and this might be a bizarre reading - but we have an extremely short exposition and two developments.  each at the points of articulation (measure 9 and after repeat sign).

one of the ways that beethoven seems to modulate strangely is in measures 20-21 where he uses those notes of a seventh chord to make the octave E's into not just major sounding - but, have modulating capabities. and adds that minor second at the top - which really makes things mysterious.  this is as far as one could go back then, wasn't it?

seems that beethoven was saving the only f minorish part for the runs at measure 37 - but oddly goes past the f at the bottom and goes right to Eb like it's supposed to have been an Eb scale.  really a genius.

this sonata is all about seventh chords, to me.  what you can do with them.  right away -we notice on the first page those octave Eb's which are VII chords in the key of f minor - but they sound like they have been a complete modulation (even though this is not intended yet - and saving up for real modulations in the next 'development')

[pianistimo]

i see some similarities between this f minor sonata and the appassionata (also f minor, right?).  of course, there - the motives are longer (four bars, right?) - and the theme I more complicated.

another thing i notice - is that a normal exposition sets one up for modulation to the V.  in this case however, it is solidly in A major at the repeat sign (end of first 'development') which is the related major or III in the key of f minor.  so it basically just modulated to the major - even though it sounded like it could go anywhere and had a lot of freedom of movement.

[pianistimo]

that last point of articulation (fermata right before recapitulation) - is in V however!  what is strange is that at this point the development is over - and we're back comfortably in f minor.  everything that follows (recapitulation) supposedly would fit better at the begining, if you think about it.  perhaps he did a bit of cut and paste?

[mcgillcomposer]

i see some similarities between this f minor sonata and the appassionata (also f minor, right?).  of course, there - the motives are longer (four bars, right?) - and the theme I more complicated.

another thing i notice - is that a normal exposition sets one up for modulation to the V.  in this case however, it is solidly in A major at the repeat sign (end of first 'development') which is the related major or III in the key of f minor.  so it basically just modulated to the major - even though it sounded like it could go anywhere and had a lot of freedom of movement.

In minor keys, the most common modulation is to the relative major; in the case of our sonata, Ab major (key signature!). Let's focus on the Op. 2 No. 1 for now...Beethoven's mid-late sonatas are a whole different ballgame.

[pianowolfi]

Let's start with the first 8 bears of the opening movement. Who can give me the standard formal analysis?

1) 2 bar basic idea that is seperated into two parts: rocket theme (f minor arpeggio), and the triplet figure...harmony = I

2)

I am confused. You said in your other thread:

Things such as complete harmonic analyses, superficial descriptions of form (e.g. ABA, sonata form...essentially meaningless terms in themselves) are, in my opinion, quite fruitless. The reason is farily simple in that no two sonatas are exactly alike even though they may follow, more or less, an architypal plan. These names describe what is frequently found, but they do not account, by any means, for all that is out there. And by definition, great music is NOT what is ordinary.

And here you are asking for a standard analysis. How come?

[pianistimo]

in minor keys - they modulate to the relative major at the end of the exposition?  guess i haven't analyzed enough beethoven sonatas.

[mcgillcomposer]

this sonata is all about seventh chords, to me.  what you can do with them.  right away -we notice on the first page those octave Eb's which are VII chords in the key of f minor - but they sound like they have been a complete modulation (even though this is not intended yet - and saving up for real modulations in the next 'development')

What is striking is not so much the fact that Beethoven uses 7th chords here but the fact that he begins the secondary theme on the dominant (the secondary theme is in Ab and he begins with a V7 - standing on the dominant).

You make some good observations, but you need to be a more careful with your terminology. What you call the first development section is actually lacking in features of a development section. I think you are confused with the fact that Beethoven often begins developing material right away but within the context of an exposition. Remember, these names are not arbitrary, but describe specific musical ideas that are there for a particular reason.

[pianistimo]

what measure is the second theme?  if it is after the repeat sign - that is the same as theme I only modified.  so why would you call it theme II if it has characteristics of theme I?  besides- aren't both themes supposed to appear in the exposition only?

as i see it - the II theme is actually in the recapitulation in measures 119-120 (approx).  with the downward theme of Db C Bb G E-nat Eb C F

[mcgillcomposer]

I am confused. You said in your other thread:

And here you are asking for a standard analysis. How come?

Because I want to demonstrate how the standard analysis completely ignores a lot of the musical substance of the piece.

[mcgillcomposer]

what measure is the second theme?  if it is after the repeat sign - that is the same as theme I only modified.  so why would you call it theme II if it has characteristics of theme I?  besides- aren't both themes supposed to appear in the exposition only?

Theme II begins @ m. 21 (with a pick-up)

[mcgillcomposer]

in minor keys - they modulate to the relative major at the end of the exposition?  guess i haven't analyzed enough beethoven sonatas.

I mean this is the convention...taking into account all sonatas before Beethoven's as well.

[pianistimo]

aha.  yes.  thank you mr mgillcomposer.  i am enjoying this.  thank you for this great help!  i have to go cook dinner (five seconds before hubby comes home) - so i think i will come back in an hour or two.

it is interesting that the theme II is actually sounding like an f minor aug 7th chord (e-natural) before the last two notes.  it's like he surprises you and says 'haha - it's actually Ab major we're doing here.'  the notes don't jive with Ab major at all - with the exception of the last two notes.

when the second theme comes back in the recapitulation - it is easily recognizable

[pianowolfi]

Because I want to demonstrate how the standard analysis completely ignores a lot of the musical substance of the piece.

Okay. Sometimes I'm asking myself which form of analysis at all can do justice to a piece, but that's more a basic question.

To me it's very noticeable how often Beethoven uses the tonic-dominant combination, not only in these first bars but in a lot of other compositions too.

[mcgillcomposer]

To me it's very noticeable how often Beethoven uses the tonic-dominant combination, not only in these first bars but in a lot of other compositions too.

True. But not only Beethoven. The tonic-dominant relationship is one of the staples of the classical style.

[mlckitt]

pianistimo, which cpe Bach sonata are you talking about?

I'm studying the op2 no1 now as well, one of my exam pieces

getting bored of it and wanna play some other sonatas by Beethoven..

[pianistimo]

one in f minor.  not knowing any of them - i suppose it's a matter of just picking one in f minor if there are several and looking to see any correlation (which at this point might be that the correlation is that there are a lot of bizarre things done since sonata form wasn't really analyzed deeply at that point was it?)  i know that for a period of time we had 'sturm und drang.'  hate to drag this into it.

also, in terms of picking the correct sonata in f minor - there is this problem:  cpe bach composed at least 151 works designated as sonata or sonatina for single keyboard instrument.  about 1/3 of these are obtainable in modern edition (the 19th century 'tresor de pianistes' ed by aristide farrenc) vol XII and XIII.

say, mcgillcomposer - i found a form and analysis forum and here is the piece in question.  you could probably add a lot to that forum.  of course, negating the need for students to find out for themselves what the analysis is of a certain piece.  it's just interesting to see what people write.  occasionally people come on that forum that do a correct detailed analysis.

http://depauwform.blogspot.com/2005/04/beethoven-piano-sonata-no-1-op-2-no-1.html

[pianistimo]

am still looking on the internet for a similar cpe bach sonata.  whew.  maybe i should also include sonatina.

temporarily got distracted by the term 'crux' - in ralph kirpatrick's (pg 255) 'domenico scarlatti' - explaining the word as it applies to ternary form rather than binary in sonatas after 1742.  also, i read about cpe's experimental 'prussian' sonatas.  (are there any f minor prussian sonatas?)

ok. several things are getting  murky but will get clearer as time goes on.  must go back and find a cpe bach sonata in f minor.  (say, didn't schumann write a sonata in f minor? no matter).
ok i found one of cpe bach's:  W57/6 (H 173)  now can anyone find the score?

[rallestar]

Well, just learned this movement as you might have seen so:

Exposition: M1 to m48.

Development: m49 to m100

Recap: m101 to 152

Main theme is a mannheimer rocket, with a little turn at the end. The ascending figure is first played in both F minor, the tonic, and on a C7 dominant chord, the dominant, and after a fermata, the theme returns in C minor from m 9. Then follows a transition through some imitations of the theme into Ab major, where the secondary theme is presented, unstable on its dominant chord, E7. The secondary theme is a melodic inversion of the first theme, being a descending arpeggio. A transition uses the tremolo in the left hand and some small ascending motifs are in the right hand, gasping for breath before some scalepassages lead to the epilogue theme (not sure of the english terminology there) in Ab major in m42.

The development section starts out using the main theme, using a chromatic drop in the lh chords to reach the secondary theme, this time first on an F7 chord, then through the same transition as used in m26-32 leads to the secondary theme on G7. The rhytmical intensity rises as the secondary theme is presented in the left hand from m68, and a sequence leads to a syncopated, non-melodic section, eventually climaxing at m81, where small cells of th side theme are used over left hand tremolos, and a decrescendo leads to a mysterical pp, with insistent knocking chords in the lh, while the rh uses the turn motif from the main theme. Eventually, this end up on Edim, conceived as a dominant to Fminor, missing only the C to be a C7 dominant chord.

Then comes the recap. The rhytm of the main theme is altered, the lh accompaniment this time landing on the first beat at the sforzandi, as are the dynamics, this time forte. The second time the main theme comes around, it is here in Fminor, not C minor as in the expo, as we won't need a transition to the secondary theme. The epilogue theme is stated in F minor, and leads to a typically rhetorical Beethoven-ending: Two question marks in m146-149, and their answer in 150-152.

The movement contains many references to Haydn, Beethovens teacher. The sudden fortissimos (m47 for example), the dramatic ending and mannheimer rocket all point towards Haydn's influence. But the movement also points forward - It has unprecedented drama and agitation, the key signature itself is remote and the mystical part of the development section seems to peek into the future in its dissonance.



Kinda superficial, some of it, I wasn't too careful with listing measure numbers for everythng and describing less important stuff - I just rounded what seems the most important.

[mlckitt]

thx a million   

you really help me a lot on the analysis

[pianowolfi]

Yes that's very helpful rallestar. I admit that I am completely blocked at the time when it comes to analysis. I feel everything (yes I know I put water on the mills of some rather critical persons) but if someone asks concrete questions I am lost, though I passed my theory exam with very good marks, back then.

[mcgillcomposer]

rallestar - nice job on the analysis...but you're right, it is rather superficial. Keep in mind though, it is NOT only yours that is...in fact, most analyses are. So, now that we have gone through the traditional approach of assigning everything labels, let's actually discuss what all of this MEANS.

As I said before, let's begin with the opening 8 bars.

We have:
- a 2 bar basic idea on I
- the same idea repeated on V6/5
- fragmentation of the basic idea
- total liquidation into a formulaic cadence

So, let's begin with some simple questions about craft:

1) How does Beethoven build momentum into the cadence? There are 4 or 5 specific things to look for here.

2) What is the purpose(s) of repeating the 2-bar basic idea? If you have William Caplin's book on form in the instrumental music of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven, it should be written there.

3) What is the function of the fermata?

Once we answer these basic questions of simple craftsmanship we will move onto the subject of artistic choices particular to this opening and why Beethoven did certain things.

[pianistimo]

i'm listening.  some excellent questions, mcgillcomposer.  you are a born teacher, imo.  this is extremely thoughtful and provocative - because the beginning of things is like a 'cell.'  dividing and multiplying with what it gave.

ok.  so the motive in the first two bars is simply repeated on the fifth (C7) at measures 3 and 4 - but, when the 'answer' comes in measure 5 - it is only a one measure answer (things are compacting) - and it's repetition is one step higher instead of a fifth higher.  the final to all this (last two measures before fermata) should be much longer - if we add two measures of the first motive with one measure of the second - that should be three measure of a 'finale' - but it's only two.  perhaps the fermata adds in as much possible space as to mathematically equalize (classically) the balance of the last missing measure?

[pianistimo]

the purpose of the fermata, imo - is to create a 'point of articulation.'  to divide it from the rest of the work for a particular reason.  i think beethoven (even at his early stages of composition) was breaking away from classical form and skipping the idea that the entirety of even a non-binary sonata (a tri-part sonata - now - because of haydn's work) could have an entire section (the whole exposition) - cut down into a nutshell. 

now, some may say i am crazy - but i think the fermata indicated beethoven's impatience with expositions because he loved developing things and wanted (in his youthful vigor) to just start extemporizing.  he seems to be working his way backwards in the 'first development' through a series of whole steps (moving from f minor to Eb major 7) to measure 29 in d-flat minor on beat two.  REMOTE MODULATIONS.

another interesting thing in terms of 'cutting' is the cut-time at the beginning of this sonata.  usually they were i