Is emotional display overrated?

[gerry]

I've read several posts on this forum about performers who are affected in one way or another. LangLang, for instance, seems to wear his heart on his (silk) sleeve, visually expressing such ecstasy that I get the impression he's sitting in rapture listening to someone else (at least as good as he is ) play. Valentina seems to play with such utter ease that she appears almost coldly detached from what her hands are doing, conveying no joy or emotion whatsoever. Others stamp feet and display other extreme emotions, giving the impression that art and beauty is an agonizing, painful, and joyless obsession. In most of these cases, it helps if I close my eyes or just listen to a recording; however, once I've observed these musicians, the image gets stuck in my mind and I find it hard not to transfer perceptions. I'm curious as to how much importance forum members put on emotional display. Is this a sign of the times--narcissism brought on by media exposure, youtube, increased ability to film and photograph our own images of self--or is it natural? Obviously, it helps to display some vital signs while performing, but should performers temper and monitor themselves or just let it all hang out if the spirit moves them? When does it get in the way of the music and when does it help?

[faulty_damper]

Interesting comments.

I think for the lay audience and many pianists alike, they don't understand the art of music-making.  They want to associate visually with what they hear.  If it sounds difficult they want the visual experience to match the auditory one.  They want to see the pianist struggle, sweat, agonize because this would match their auditory senses.  This, of course, would actually prevent good musicianship and make it much harder for a pianist to perform difficult repertoire: pianism over musicianship.

Those who prioritize musicianship over pianism seem calm and relaxed even when it sounds extremely difficult and auditorily impressive.  These musicians are often labelled as boring pianists - the visual experience seems detached with the aural one.  Indeed, as many pianists who have achieved a great level of ability and ease with their instrument are often the most relaxed and calm compared to the hot-heads of competition competitors or when they were much younger.  How many senior citizen concert pianists ever have stage orgasms while performing?

Then there are those pianists/musicians in between these two: those with both excellent ability and musicianship skills who balance out the mastubatory and the music.  They avoid extreme forms of showmanship but give enough impression that they are not bored with what they are doing while maintaining good control of the musical flow.

[faulty_damper]

I remember when I used to masturbate while playing the piano, if only for a very short period of time in my youth.  I can say that it caused my playing to be irregular, uneven, musically exagerated and thus musically inept.  But while I was doing sommersaults with my face and body, I couldn't tell that it caused the music to suffer; I was so focused on the sounds that I couldn't focus of the rhythm or anything else.  And who was listening except myself?  I had no external force that told me the rhythm was wrong, the pulse was being stretched like a deteriorated rubberband, the dynamics fell like a brick in water... I wanted to hear what I wanted to hear, not what I actually sounded like. 

What I actually sounded like was shocking, much like hearing the sound of your own voice on a tape.  "Do I really sound like that?!"  It's such a shock that it's difficult to face it.

But why did I do it?  Because that is what I saw other pianists do, other pianists who were much better pianists than I was at the time - famous ones.  In fact, I didn't contort my body or face before I saw those that performed like a clown in a circus act.  In fact, my teacher's other students rarely ever let any signs of these egotistical strokings out on stage.  I did it because it felt good to do more than just move my fingers; it felt good to gyrate what I could while in a seated position.  And it just seemed to me that I was a better pianist because I was doing it.

It was a humbling experience.  Thankfully, these habits didn't last long.  Part of the reason I stopped was because I looked like an idiot trapped in an insane asylum, and secondly because it impaired my ability to play difficult repertoire.  The result was that my playing improved significantly because I could focus on what was important, and emmulating a monkey in a zoo wasn't one of them.  But monkey see, monkey do - and there are neuroligal reasons why we copy what we see: mirror neurons.  But this is a different topic.

[invictious]

Personally, I feel that displaying emotions is not an essential part of piano playing. I generally don't display that emotion while playing because I am focusing on my piano playing and playing it musically interesting. I just don't naturally move around and make orgasm faces while I play.

People always go 'l0lz!! you don't play with da emotionz1!!' unless they see this person playing like Lang Lang...it's always a pain.

In fact, I find people playing as though they are having orgasms very distracting and  I can't concentrate on the music. It's only a part of showmanship, besides, shouldn't the audience be looking at the fingers instead of the pianist's face?

[gerry]

I remember when I used to masturbate while playing the piano, if only for a very short period of time in my youth. 

Your teacher encouraged hands-separate practice? What a great way to learn some of the great left-hand works in the literature

[matterintospirit]

I remember when I used to masturbate while playing the piano, if only for a very short period of time in my youth.  I can say that it caused my playing to be irregular, uneven, musically exagerated and thus musically inept.  But while I was doing sommersaults with my face and body, I couldn't tell that it caused the music to suffer; I was so focused on the sounds that I couldn't focus of the rhythm or anything else.  And who was listening except myself?  I had no external force that told me the rhythm was wrong, the pulse was being stretched like a deteriorated rubberband, the dynamics fell like a brick in water... I wanted to hear what I wanted to hear, not what I actually sounded like. 

What I actually sounded like was shocking, much like hearing the sound of your own voice on a tape.  "Do I really sound like that?!"  It's such a shock that it's difficult to face it.

But why did I do it?  Because that is what I saw other pianists do, other pianists who were much better pianists than I was at the time - famous ones.  In fact, I didn't contort my body or face before I saw those that performed like a clown in a circus act.  In fact, my teacher's other students rarely ever let any signs of these egotistical strokings out on stage.  I did it because it felt good to do more than just move my fingers; it felt good to gyrate what I could while in a seated position.  And it just seemed to me that I was a better pianist because I was doing it.

It was a humbling experience.  Thankfully, these habits didn't last long.  Part of the reason I stopped was because I looked like an idiot trapped in an insane asylum, and secondly because it impaired my ability to play difficult repertoire.  The result was that my playing improved significantly because I could focus on what was important, and emmulating a monkey in a zoo wasn't one of them.  But monkey see, monkey do - and there are neuroligal reasons why we copy what we see: mirror neurons.  But this is a different topic.

I would have thought the music would have been orgasmic due to the masturbating.

Emotional display is display. I love to watch videos of artists like rubenstein and horowitz---their very deep level of concentration. it's awsome to watch---much more interesting than twisted faces in the name of art. too damn silly. cheap tricks of the trade. a substitute for a brain.

[matterintospirit]

sorry--i wanted to quote,  then comment, and my comment starts with----i thought that---etc--------don't know how to seperate quote from my comment---duh--

[thalberg]

I've had teachers tell me I look too dead while playing--even though my sound was very expressive.  They told me I'd fail as a musician if I didn't give the audience a little something to look at.

I've also read where great concert artists said any movement while playing takes away from the control they have.  I think Rubinstein was superlatively expressive, yet he sat still as a statue.  Same with Argerich and Perahia.

[matterintospirit]

stick with the control. i don't know about failing, but the image of the swooning artist is what many expect---they associate that with the idea--this guy must be good---look at him sway. so sad--- and many pianist are perpetuating this silly show i think often that it is a substitute for real comprehension..

[pianowolfi]

sorry--i wanted to quote,  then comment, and my comment starts with----i thought that---etc--------don't know how to seperate quote from my comment---duh--

use this tag:

[/quote]

Personally, I feel that displaying emotions is not an essential part of piano playing. I generally don't display that emotion while playing because I am focusing on my piano playing and playing it musically interesting. I just don't naturally move around and make orgasm faces while I play.

People always go 'l0lz!! you don't play with da emotionz1!!' unless they see this person playing like Lang Lang...it's always a pain.

In fact, I find people playing as though they are having orgasms very distracting and  I can't concentrate on the music. It's only a part of showmanship, besides, shouldn't the audience be looking at the fingers instead of the pianist's face?

Lol you are very entertaining But how many people in the audience can actually see the fingers?
I agree that it's often showmanship. (Why do I always see Grimaud in my mind? lol) But some people can't do other, obviously, like Brendel.

[thalberg]

stick with the control. i don't know about failing, but the image of the swooning artist is what many expect---they associate that with the idea--this guy must be good---look at him sway. so sad--- and many pianist are perpetuating this silly show i think often that it is a substitute for real comprehension..

Yes I agree.  Perhaps I can give them the best of both worlds by having a friend onstage to swoon for me.  You know, kind of like a page turner, but only a swooner.

[pianowolfi]

Yes I agree.  Perhaps I can give them the best of both worlds by having a friend onstage to swoon for me.  You know, kind of like a page turner, but only a swooner.

Cool idea, an onstage swooner claque cheerleader combo

[steinway43]

The public loves a great actor. It is show biz, after all.

A sad fact of the music world is that a lot of the audience has no clue what's really going on when you're playing. I've learned this, to my horror, getting to know people and hearing their comments. I played Ondine for one arrogant snob who was sure he was always right, but watching the confusion on his face told me he was clueless. Anything beyond Tchaikowsky was beyond his ears. For those who know the piece, when I got to the part just beyond the big climax, where the melody starts with A# over b minor, he screamed "Those are wrong notes!" Imagine that. Ravel wrote the wrong notes! Who knew. And that is typical.

So how do they judge you? They go by looks and this acting business. It's all they have, really. It makes me sad to know these things, and causes me no end of grief when oblivious posers bully me with their musically retarded assessments.

[counterpoint]

Yes I agree.  Perhaps I can give them the best of both worlds by having a friend onstage to swoon for me.  You know, kind of like a page turner, but only a swooner.

You know eurhythmics performances...?   

[gerry]

I played Ondine for one arrogant snob who was sure he was always right, ...he screamed "Those are wrong notes!" Imagine that. Ravel wrote the wrong notes! Who knew. And that is typical.

...and causes me no end of grief when oblivious posers bully me with their musically retarded assessments.

Why do you hang around people like this

[thalberg]

You know eurhythmics performances...?   

Sure!  Great idea!

[rc]

The public loves a great actor. It is show biz, after all.

A sad fact of the music world is that a lot of the audience has no clue what's really going on when you're playing...

So how do they judge you? They go by looks and this acting business. It's all they have, really. It makes me sad to know these things, and causes me no end of grief when oblivious posers bully me with their musically retarded assessments.

Gerry was onto this too, but really who do you want to appeal to, the musically retarded or those who are there for the music?

Not many will know enough to COMPLETELY understand everything about a performance, there's a lot I'm ignorant of, but good music can be enjoyed by the average listener without visual help.

OTOH, I don't believe the idea that a performer should feel nothing onstage, and if a feeling results in a little sway then it might take more energy to supress it than allow it.

[pianowolfi]

You know eurhythmics performances...?   

Sure!  Great idea!

I wouldn't recommend that since Eurythmists use to tell you how to play so they can perform like they wish and that might very often not be in congruence with what the music requires. Just my experience Interesting art, though. Might get better in the future.

[counterpoint]

Quote from: counterpoint on Today at 11:07:51
You know eurhythmics performances...?   

Sure!  Great idea!

I didn't expect that reaction   

It will look somewhat like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UookPnBYnwo

  or like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTnf7ufFrEc

[matterintospirit]

The public loves a great actor. It is show biz, after all.

A sad fact of the music world is that a lot of the audience has no clue what's really going on when you're playing. I've learned this, to my horror, getting to know people and hearing their comments. I played Ondine for one arrogant snob who was sure he was always right, but watching the confusion on his face told me he was clueless. Anything beyond Tchaikowsky was beyond his ears. For those who know the piece, when I got to the part just beyond the big climax, where the melody starts with A# over b minor, he screamed "Those are wrong notes!" Imagine that. Ravel wrote the wrong notes! Who knew. And that is typical.

So how do they judge you? They go by looks and this acting business. It's all they have, really. It makes me sad to know these things, and causes me no end of grief when oblivious posers bully me with their musically retarded assessments.




[/quote]don't dispair steinway---it's not black and white. haven't given recital in long time, but the best audience that i ever played for was a jazz audience. a great jazz musician/composer friend of mine used me to open the program. i asked him why? i'm a classical musician---i play music of the past and this program is entitled "the new music'---he responded to me---"you play it like it's new." i opened with the Mozart fantasia in D----very advanced piece muisically to say the least. when i finished, the audience burst out into thunderous applause i think i felt the "wind" from the clapping no kidding (i may have been high at the time, iwas very young)--- this audience was totally open and came with no preconceived notions as the typical "classical" music audience---it was a real eye opener

[matterintospirit]

will someone please tell me how to quote and then write response. i need computer help, thalberg---where are you when i need you. i'll take help from anybody as i am a computer dummy.

[counterpoint]

will someone please tell me how to quote and then write response. i need computer help, thalberg---where are you when i need you. i'll take help from anybody as i am a computer dummy.

It's very easy: just press the "Quote"-Button, you get a textfield with the quoted text. It begins with [quote]... and ends with [/quote]

Write your own text after the last [/quote] statement.

[matterintospirit]

thanx!

[leonidas]

Music is exclusively an aural art, but pianism is an art which also touches other senses, namely - sight and touch.

With the increasing popularity and availability of visual performances, it has become more important than ever to be concious of appearance while performing.

Whether it be to attempt to have as minimal a distraction as possible, or to be embraced as a part of the allround experience, it is important.

I never get annoyed, because of course if I am displeased, I can look down, or look away, but part of the fun is seeing the funny/expressive movements a pianist makes.

I think Cziffra is a fantastic pianist to watch, his face and body language express pride and humility at once, strength and vunerability, and always sincerity.

Lang Lang is the most often cited example, and I find most of his visual actions to be exaggerated and entertaining, and if they can detreact from the seriousness of his purpose, it only reveals that his music making isn't the most serious out tyhere, it's primarily about fun, and sharing how fun piano music and playing can be.

[matterintospirit]

he who is the most "entertaining" collects the most $$$. the masses are not known for good taste or awareness of culture, only pop culture. most have no other way to view a recital other than "entertainment"---probably as true today as it was 300 years ago. on the other hand, take an average audience who hears a performance of a Mozart piano concerto preformed by a pianist who is highly technically skilled, polished to the nines with all the right moves----the audience applauds politely---they think they have heard something very good---- then same Mozart piano concerto performed by a pianist with true feeling, insight, and communication with the audience, regardless of facial expressions, movement, etc-------same audience goes wild--they go with their feelings, and "ideas" fly out the window. the situation takes over, and the listener is changed in some small way forever. the performer stands poised with the world spinning in the palm of their hand.

[leonidas]

the masses are not known for good taste

The only objective superior in music is mass appeal.

Take the great Britney Spears song 'Toxic' as an example, it is far more popular than many great symphonies.

Is it therefore better? Not absolutely, but if 'good taste' exists at all, it favours the popular.

[zheer]

Is emotional display overrated?


    Yes,classical music is'nt just entertainment it's an art , the artist only re-creats and commuicates the music to the listner through sound , what he/she does physically to produce sound is of little value from an artistic point of view.

[matterintospirit]

The only objective superior in music is mass appeal.

Take the great Britney Spears song 'Toxic' as an example, it is far more popular than many great symphonies.

Is it therefore better? Not absolutely, but if 'good taste' exists at all, it favours the popular.

an artist should not care what people favor (not that one does not have to consider what to do in order to make money, but the two shouldn't be confused.) consumer societies teach people immediate consumption. that's what they can relate to---land even live for---and it brings in the $$$$. most people are finished learning about life by age 5. pop culture for the most part is a vast cultural wasteland with some exceptions here and there. the powers that be, claim to be giving people what they want, and in reality, deny the fact that they are actively molding people and determining what the WILL want. sucks--- and has always been the case but not in such mass proportions as now. imagine the diffrence in our society if the norm were public tetevision style shows and this is what children were mainly exposed to! i find the culture in general rather depressing which is why as a child i locked into classical music---a bright spot in my life and an anecdote to the drab dreariness of society in general as I know it.

[counterpoint]

what he/she does physically to produce sound is of little value from an artistic point of view.

I wouldn't say that. There are some things in piano playing, that depend more on pantomime than on a real sound difference. For example: you can't play a crescendo on a sustained note. That's physically impossible. But you can make the people hear a crescendo on a sustained note. So facial or body expression is needed in piano playing.