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Topic: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"  (Read 9767 times)

Offline rachfan

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Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
on: August 28, 2007, 01:10:02 AM
About Sergei Bortkiewicz:  Born in Kharkov, Ukraine in 1877, Bortkiewicz studied with Liadov and Arek at the Imperial Conservatory in St. Petersburg and in Leipzig with Reisenauer. He toured Europe as a performing artist and also taught at the Klindworth-Scharwenka Conservatory in Berlin.  He gave many master classes as well and composed primarily for piano solo as well as composing four piano concertos. Bortkiewicz’s musical style is late romantic with stylistic roots traceable to Chopin, Liszt and Tchaikovsky with more contemporary influences from the neo-romantics Rachmaninoff, Scriabin and even Wagner. Bortkiewicz died in Vienna in 1952.  Many of his publishing scores were destroyed or lost during the bombing of Germany during WWII, although many have been recovered by scholars.    

About “Eros”:  Eros, to the ancient Greeks, was the primordial god of love.  I would characterize this impromptu published in 1922 as an ultra-romantic, seductive, ravishing and ecstatic bravura piece.  At an underlying structural level, it is comprised seemingly of a clever sequence of ever different mini-etudes ingeniously integrated to form a unified, sensuous and exhilarating piece.  
 
About the piano: This was recorded on my recently partially rebuilt 1984 Baldwin Model L (6’3”) Artist Grand.  

About this home recording: ADD (analog tape to digital file).  

UPDATE: Last recorded on 9/24/07  (92 downloads on prior three recordings).  
  
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #1 on: August 28, 2007, 09:30:43 PM
So, am I generally on the right track with this piece? 
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #2 on: August 28, 2007, 10:03:10 PM
Okay, I admit that I have almost no clue of Bortkiewicz yet. So take my comment with a grain of salt. Or two grains. First listening: I like the piece very much, it is distinctly Rachmaninoff-like, with a touch of Scriabin. Or vice versa. And, wow, you give a very good impression of it so far :). Much respect! :) Sounds as if it's quite difficult :P. My advice as far as I can say: more dynamic structure. A good erotic adventure needs a very "calculated" buildup, so to say. So don't get too loud too soon, leave a lot of reserves. (ok I am dancing on a dangerous parquet I know lol ;D) I would bet that at least the whole first 16 measures are meant to play p-mp. I like how you play the lyrical part afterwards, you might enjoy this even more, like delicatissimo, you might want to be an erotic gourmet after all, in this piece :) turning pages is taboo, of course... :o i mean, do you change lightbulbs.... :-[ well just make copies ;D this kind of adventure needs full focus... :P 8) Bravo for the ending! though... as I listen again, perhaps the last chords should follow each other more soon, really virtuously. A showoff ending.

Thank you for posting this, it's a very attractive, interesting and fun sounding piece :)

Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #3 on: August 28, 2007, 11:26:44 PM
Hi wolfi,

Thanks for the compliment and encouragement!  You probably recall that I have very little practice time, so rarely do I undertake a piece of this magnitude (10 pages) and level of virtuosity!  It's generally more practical for me to stick to character pieces or other miniatures where I can bring them to a very good performance level with limited but efficient practice.  In this instance I was really taken with Koji Attwood's incredible and breath-taking performance of "Eros".  Athough I have a much more modest technique, I can accomplish a lot, no matter the difficulty, if a piece really inspires me.  This one does tremendously.

On your points:

First, you're quite right.  The first page is at p; however, it is also contour dynamics-- crescendos on the rise of a phrases and diminuendos tapering off those phrases.  I started off with the soft pedal as well as an assist.  I'll try to quiet that page down even more.  The key is to execute those "swells" so they're discernable, but still within a narrower dynamic range so as not to get out of bounds.   More generally, I totally agree with your point about holding back some reserve strength.  In fact, I introduce some quiet at times even though the composer doesn't mark it as such in the score.  That enables me to avoid too much mono-dynamic effect by dropping back and rebuilding excitement in a tactical way.

Also, I like your idea to make the lyrical part more delicatissimo.  Most of it is p to pp.  I do bring out a lot of nuances there, I believe.  In the adventure, this evokes a bit of a tease.

Darn, I knew you'd catch the page turns!  And yes, they come at bad moments and disturb my concentration every time.  I recovered quickly each time, but had to do damage control which was then doubly distracting.  Unfortunately, I can't memorize anymore, but your idea on copying the pages to lay them along the music desk is a good one.  Then I merely have to be the "artist" ( ;D) and sound engineer, and I can then fire the page turner.   :)

On the ending, I'll work at more of "barn burner" there.  Basically you're dealing with "flying" chords and octaves in that bravura section, one of Bortkiewicz's mini-etudes--not an easy task.  Calls for a flexible wrist for rapid vertical motion.

Clearly, I'm still toiling in the fields of this piece, but it's well worth it!  Once I'm more comfortable and secure with it, I'll repost it in the future, then everyone can hear the "before and after".

I think that occassionally some of the members here expect me to post a difficult piece, despite my amateur duffer status in the forum, so this is the one I'm presenting this time around.

Thanks so much, wolfi, for taking time to listen and critque! 

   
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 12:31:33 AM
Any other thoughts or opinions?     
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 08:11:11 PM
I've posted a new, improved, replacement recording here today (9/5/07) up at the top in the initial posting.  I find I never play Eros the same time twice it seems.  The LH is more secure now, but there are still some issues I'm working on.  I hope you'll listen, and comments welcome.  Thanks!
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", NEW RECORDING 9/5/07
Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 06:03:46 PM
Somehow it seems to me that you have a special relation to this piece :)
I like it more and more. I think in this recording you emphasize the "scriabinesque" aspect a bit more than with the previous one, the playful aspect. You know, I have a very special relation to Valse op. 38 by Scriabin and this piece reminds me very much of it, though it is of course very unique. I definitely love the "fin de sičcle" atmosphere, and I like the brilliant ending :)

Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 07:54:29 PM
Hey wolfi,

If you look at the starting post above, you'll find that I just replaced that recording with one I did today.  I hope you'll listen to it.  (Beware: you'll hear me bashing the sheet music at one point, as I haven't had a chance to go out to photocopy the score yet.)  There are some missed chords on the last page, but at least I know what to fix there.  This is a very difficult piece, and recording it is a stressful and sometimes frustrating experience.  It's hard not to make an error somewhere as it all unfolds.  But, having said that, I believe this is my best effort yet.  See if you agree.

Yes, I definitely have a strong affinity to this piece!  I think it somehow takes me back to my misspent youth, ha-ha!   :) .  I too like that Scriabin Valse you mentioned.  That's a gorgeous piece too.  Scriabin was defintely a big influence on Bortkiewicz.

I have to say, up until now, I felt that the Impromptu and I were both in an unyielding death grip.  Now I sense that the piece and I are coming to terms.  Normally I shy away from virtuosic pieces and opt for character pieces.  (Example: You might want to check out my Debussy prelude on this page posted last night.)  But this impromptu has increased my confidence in my studying/playing bigger pieces more often.

Thanks for commenting!  :)  It's really odd that nearly 50 people have listened, but except for you, nobody has said anything.  I can't fathom what that means, but take it to be probably more negative than positive.
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 08:33:19 PM


If you look at the starting post above, you'll find that I just replaced that recording with one I did today. 


Sure, I was relating to the new recording :)

Quote

Thanks for commenting!  :)  It's really odd that nearly 50 people have listened, but except for you, nobody has said anything.  I can't fathom what that means, but take it to be probably more negative than positive.
sigh :P yeah.  You know, some things are just not what we call "mainstream" If we would post Chopin op. 10,1 played in 1'30'' or so (I don't know if that's the par) the downloads and comments would be soon very much increase in number , I guess. Lol ;D

Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 09:03:39 PM
Hi wolfi,

Nope, actually I saw your post before I transferred over the new file.  So you'll find it quite different, I'm sure.

Yes, I hear you on the matter of taste.  If a piece is a "conservatory anvil" or an overplayed war horse, listeners seem to flock to it.  But sadly, many take little or no interest in lesser known repertoire. 

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Offline pianistimo

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 09:38:49 PM
dear rachfan,

i'm listening to this on my new earphones.  what a beautiful piece!  i love how each person interprets it differently.  koji certainly makes his statements - but you also make yours.  isn't scriabin like this.  colorful and imaginary.  it becomes whatever you make it.  i'm sure you'll claim this piece as he has.  memory is always a bugger to me on things like this - until i've practiced it over and over for half a year.  the barber nocturne gave me fits and it's only four pages.  i think you're amazing to play this all so quickly.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 10:21:20 PM
If a piece is a "conservatory anvil" or an overplayed war horse, listeners seem to flock to it. But sadly, many take little or no interest in lesser known repertoire.


Yeah, you have my sympathy there.

This sounds like exactly the sort of piece that would go down well in a concert programme, once people were actually there to listen to it. I liked the way you injected some nice nuances and rubato throughout the piece; little touches like that add so much to the colour and overall impression. Two suggestions I would make: in the passage from about 3.40 I don't think you have enough distinction between what is essentially melody and accompaniment in the right hand, and it would sound much more effective if you brought the melody out. Similarly, from 4.45 I'd like to hear more of the left hand. Of course that is only my first interpretative impression and I could easily be wrong or change my mind later. Really, if you've not had much practice time to work on this, it is a fine achievement. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 10:43:47 PM
Hi pianistimo,

I'm so glad you took time to listen and comment!  I find that at my age, memorizing is a huge challenge.  Yet, if I really love a piece, the aural and tactile memories in particular start to work again surprisingly well.  When I was a kid, I'd live with a piece for a year, so memorization was automatic.  So yes, you make the same point--the longer you work on it, the more facile the memorization.   Like you, I'm always looking toward the next piece though, and often put the last one away once it's in respectable shape.  I should really hold onto a piece longer.   

Thanks for the compliment on my getting this ready so quickly.  I find that if I have a close affinity to a work, I'll do whatever it takes, and little can deter me--except limited practice time.  This piece is 10 pages, thus manageable in my situation.  As you know, I usually stick to miniatures.  I have to admit, though, I even surprised myself getting so difficult a piece playable in so short a time. 

Yes, I think Koji's rendition is absolutely superb--incredible!!  It's not something I could attain, however, owing to my far more modest technique.  So I strive for a different approach and sound that can still be effective and well received, and most importantly, my own "voice" and interpretation.

You know, I always listen to this piece with headphones too.  Somehow PC spreakers (even with the subwoofer my son installed) cannot capture the majesty of a piece of this scope.

Again, thanks for responding.
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 10:56:23 PM
Hi ronde,

I really appreciate your listening to my playing.  Thanks!

Yes, my practice time is quite limited--my wife dislikes piano, serious music, and practicing in particular.  So I wait for her to go out on errands.  Once at the piano, I work very efficiently with deep concentration on matters of articulation, necessary repetitions, problem solving, etc. and listening to myself carefully.  Although I've posted a few big pieces here, normally I "invest" in character pieces and other miniatures, given my practice situation.

Yes, I notice you like to dabble in lesser known repertoire, so knew exactly what I was referring to earlier.  It's just that there are so many musical gems out there that are all but ignored.

Thanks for pointing out those two places in "Eros" for me to consider more closely.  I'm going to do that now.
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #14 on: September 08, 2007, 06:03:31 AM
Hi wolfi,

Nope, actually I saw your post before I transferred over the new file.  So you'll find it quite different, I'm sure.




Hmmm somehow I liked the recording from before more, the second one you posted. I even can't exactly say why at the moment, It seemed to have more "flow" to me or something. But I think to write better comments, I would now need the music, which I don't have yet.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/7/07
Reply #15 on: September 08, 2007, 10:37:07 PM
Hi wolfi,

It seems I never play Eros the same way twice!  And when I listen to out takes, I think, "Gee, I did a better job on Part B1 in the first recording, but I like Part C more in the third, etc.  I do know one thing though--my fluidity is improving.  The way I can tell is not only a greater sense of assuredness in playing the piece, but the out takes are always shorter in time too.  This also means I'm getting up to tempo more comfortably.  One thing I do like about this third recording is that I've given more attention to some nuances that have become more effective as a result.  I think ronde commented too on that particular aspect somewhere in this thread.  My biggest disappointment in the latest recording is missing some important chords on the last page.  The unwanted effect was to simplify things, which also caused the part to be far less exciting. 

So the challenge for me is still out there--to continue to work through some issues and to be able to produce a thoroughly satisfying recording.  I'm never at my best either sitting in front of a microphone (or three mics in this case).   But I'll persevere.   :)

By the way, I did try out your suggestions to make the lyrical part more delicate and to inject more excitement into the ending. 
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/20/07
Reply #16 on: September 20, 2007, 08:55:37 PM
Hi Everyone,

I just posted a new recording today of the Bortkiewicz Impromptu "Eros".  (See the very first posting above.)  There are many things I like about it, yet it is still not the recording that will give me full satisfaction.  So I continue to toil on it.  For those of you who post recordings here, you know first hand how difficult it is to make a recording just as you want it to sound.  I personally find that sitting in front of microphones is more exacting (and frustrating) somehow than being in front of an actual audience.  Anyway, I hope you can detects some of the improvements I have achieved.  Feel free to comment.  Thanks! 
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/20/07
Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 09:23:52 PM
First of all, I love this piece more and more, due to your posts :). It gets harder to comment though, to me, because there were things I liked in the first recording that are now different, and so it was with the other recordings too. And at the time I am losing the overview a bit. I find it interesting to follow you in your process of working on this. One point I notice here is that you seem  to rush a bit in the fast furious parts and to lose control a bit, but ...what is control? I mean, it sounds passionate, and that is good, of course. Control and passion? How goes that together? A really interesting question to me. Anyway, keep it up, I enjoy it :).

Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/20/07
Reply #18 on: September 20, 2007, 09:55:30 PM
Hi wolfi,

Thanks for your encouragement!  You know, it seems I never play this piece twice the same way, so I'm never quite sure how it will have sounded until it's actually over and I listen to the out take.  I've read of artists who experience this same phenomenon (you probably do also, actually, even sometimes playing your own improvs, not just standard repertoire).  I don't know what accounts for it--it might be different musical intentions up to a point, but also spontaneity creeping into the performance, a slightly different mood during the recording, different atmospheric conditions affecting the sound of the piano making the pianist play differently, ability or inability to get inside the mental program imagry to project it, sudden technical gaffs that interrupt concentration, etc.  In a way I think it's a good thing, as the piece will always sound fresh.

Yes, that issue of control vs. passion is an important one.  For me slowing tempo generally assures greater control; yet something totally controlled can seem contrived if not sterile.  Think of Richter's live recording of "Pictures at an Exhibition" released during the early 1960s which caused a sensation throughout the music world.  It has more wrong notes in it than you shake two sticks at, but its excitement is astonishing.  If one can actually attain near-perfect control along with ample passion, that is a wonderful thing--more power to that artist.  But for a mere mortal like me, it's more of a practical trade-off.  So if I have to choose, I'll always take risk and lean toward the passionate rendition, as I am always confident that I can put it across to the listener very well.  There is something to be said too for hearing the titanic struggle in the music, especially when an amateur is performing it.  There is a fine line though involving musicianship and musicality, that is, you cannot afford to make a mess of a piece either.  For many of us, control and passion form a paradox--the collision of two truths.   

I love this piece too!  It's incredible.
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros", RECORDED 9/24/07
Reply #19 on: September 24, 2007, 07:35:22 PM
Hi Everyone,

I just uploaded my 4th version of "Eros".  As with the other recordings, there are things I like and things I'd like to redo.  This is really a hard piece to play flawlessly in a single take! 

At this point I'm feeling that I'm on a plateau with this piece.  What I'll probably do now is put it aside for awhile and prepare other repertoire. 

92 people have downloaded this piece to date, which really pleases me.  Bortkiewicz gave us a fantastic piece in "Eros", and I'm glad to have helped raise awareness of this wonderful composer and of the great power and beauty of his Impromptu, at least to the best of my capabilities.   

Thanks for listening!  Comments welcome.
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Bortkiewicz, Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros"
Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 05:11:58 AM
Similar to wzkit's thinking, with Bortkiewicz now getting some belated but well-deserved attention, here is a reposting of "Eros" for those who may have missed it on its first run.  It transferred to the forum a little too soft, so you'll need to turn the volume dial up to the 2:00 position or so.  Enjoy!   :)
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