fast sixths

[Derek]

Okay, I think I'm starting to get a pretty good handle on fast thirds finally (at least in right hand for now, somewhat in left hand too), but what about sixths? When I improvise, I typically make my thumb jump around a lot while the rest of the fingers play the scale on top. I've checked some technique books for some ideas, and they seem to be pretty similar except the bottom note goes 1 2 1 2 1 2 etc. I find this scheme exceedingly awkward*, especially when improvising (my hands are not exactly big, the biggest interval I can hit with ease is a minor tenth on the black keys). When using sixths I am typically not trying to dazzle anyway, but say some poignant moment came when I DID want a dazzling speedy run of sixths....any advice? 

*in other words, I feel like my hand is twisting really far to the left, and then to the right, to accommodate the suggestion of this technique book. I'm beginning to wonder if technique books are always written by people with massive liszt like hands. this also makes me wonder if such techniques, practiced too much, are what busted Schumann's hand and also Scriabin's.

[iumonito]

Is there an angle (any angle) at which you can comfortably play a 2-5 sixth?  If the answer is "no," then you should forget about the second finger for the bottom notes.  But if the answer is "yes," then you should find yourself at the comfortable angle when you play the 2-5 sixth.  Move the arm in advance so by the time you are to play you are already at the comfortable angle.

Also, let go of the position as soon as you can.  The pedal should help.

[thalberg]

I dealt with really fast sixths in Variation 14 of the Brahms Handel Variations.

I had exactly your problem until one day, I magically discovered (with the help of my teacher) how to dance across the tops of the keys lightly.  That is the way to play sixths, my friend.  The 121212 thing in the thumb works much better if you just loosely dance across the key surfaces.  Don't be too legato, and don't press the key firmly all the way to the bed.  

Of course, once I could do that, my tempo increased dramatically and it was more clean and everything was wonderful.  Then I noticed Brahms had writtein "sciolto" in the score.  I thought perhaps I should look it up--it means "loosely."  Duh.

[thalberg]

Also, Schumann's hands were busted because of a device he used to exercise his fingers independently.  His fourth finger was the problem.  Its tendons are attached to the fifth finger, so it can never be independent, but Schumann forced the issue and paid for it.

I never heard about Scriabin having hand problems.  Enlighten me.  I'm always eager to learn new things about that amazing madman.

[pita bread]

Scriabin killed his right hand while learning the Liszt Don Juan.

[ultraviolet]

Scriabin is awesome.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I never heard about Scriabin having hand problems.  Enlighten me.  I'm always eager to learn new things about that amazing madman.

If my memory is correct, Scriabin damaged his hands trying to compete with Lhevinne. Didn't know it was in Don Juan, though.

[cmg]

I dealt with really fast sixths in Variation 14 of the Brahms Handel Variations.

I had exactly your problem until one day, I magically discovered (with the help of my teacher) how to dance across the tops of the keys lightly.  That is the way to play sixths, my friend.  The 121212 thing in the thumb works much better if you just loosely dance across the key surfaces.  Don't be too legato, and don't press the key firmly all the way to the bed.  

Of course, once I could do that, my tempo increased dramatically and it was more clean and everything was wonderful.  Then I noticed Brahms had writtein "sciolto" in the score.  I thought perhaps I should look it up--it means "loosely."  Duh.

Blintz is being modest here.  He has big, flexible hands and is able to plays sixths with the following fingering:  12-23-34-45-12-23-34-45. 

But, seriously, blintz, the "sciolto" tip is a revelation to me and I thank you for it.  There's a miserable passage (flying sixths for countless measures) in the Liszt transcription of the Bach A minor Prelude and Fugue for Organ that only approaches tempo for me when I lighten up.  I discovered this one evening after one beer and thought it was only one of those flukey experiences.

I'm relieved to know it's no fluke, but the way to go!

All hail Thalberg!

[thalberg]

 

Haha those are some pretty hilarious fingerings cmg!  I do have big, flexible hands though. 

[dnephi]

I am playing the B-L P&F and that's a very hard problem.

Stephen Beus vill unleazh it tonight.  I won't get a vid, but I'll take lots of notes.

[pita bread]

If my memory is correct, Scriabin damaged his hands trying to compete with Lhevinne. Didn't know it was in Don Juan, though.

It was with Lhevinne and Rachmaninoff.

See!!  How many times do I have to tell everyone how bad Liszt is! He even screwed up Scriabin.  And for what?

So that Scriabin could focus on more interesting usage of the left hand, that's what.

[schubertiad]

I have just started the chop sixths study, and stumbled upon the same revalation myself. The moment you forget about the thumb and just let it dance about, things speed up immediately. I will definitely try the 'loose' thing too. I read that what screwed up Scriabin was his teacher's insistence that he play a particularly tricky bit of don juan 'into the keys', which he took too literally and busted his hand up trying to achieve.

[mikey6]

Look, if you're gonna critisize somone, get your facts straight - first we have this

Liszt wrote only from his hands whatever felt good to play and fit under his fingers.

Now apparently, piano writing's harmful

See!!  How many times do I have to tell everyone how bad Liszt is! He even screwed up Scriabin.  And for what?

[ryan2189]

Try a few different approaches. I had trouble with 6th's when I started Beethoven's Op. 10 No. 3. They are alternating sixhs, but nevertheles I had to practice them as chords in order to execute them correctly. Maybe practicing them differently wil work for you as well. Also, I noticed that if you keep your hand loose but still close to the keyboard, then you are more likely to make contact with the correct keys.

[ultraviolet]

Dotted rhythms is always a good idea.

[prongated]

Plus, in case you missed it on the previous thread, I'm refusing to talk about Liszt anymore

...you mean, you dropped a 'bomb' and then now "I didn't do it"?

[ultraviolet]

Sixths are lovely.

[thalberg]

...you mean, you dropped a 'bomb' and then now "I didn't do it"?

After all the people telling uv to stop talking, uv is doing so.  Why do you seek to interfere?

[prongated]

After all the people telling uv to stop talking, uv is doing so.  Why do you seek to interfere?

...probably...

...plus I also read "to stop talking" figuratively...not to mention, such preposition is conditioned to "if you don't know what you're talking about"...

...but otherwise you are probably right. I apologise for interfering

[mikey6]

Don't try getting all "logical" with me, Mikey.  It's not going to work!! 

Plus, in case you missed it on the previous thread, I'm refusing to talk about Liszt anymore

So you agree that your arguement isn't logical? All i'm saying is back up your arguement with some legitimate facts.  I didn't and I don't think anyone else is saying it's wrong to dislike a composer, but don't rant and rave in an ignorant fashion.

[ultraviolet]

You know what I love?  The Ode to Joy.

[ramseytheii]

This topic sure went nowhere fast.

I think Bernstein was able to articulate how Beethoven could turn a few "adjacent diatonic pitches" into a masterpiece, and why that was genius.  You should look it up!

Walter Ramsey

[ultraviolet]

 

[etudes]

well...to have fast sixths then you have to play and learn a lot of sixths...
easily...Liszt Feux Follets? 
chopin the coda of 2nd ballade? op.10 no.2,op.25 no.6,8
then when you have those etudes in your hands so you can go with
brahms paganini (esp.first 2 variations of first book)