piano concerto - how difficult for orchestras

[Nordlys]

How difficult are some of the famous piano concerti to play for the orchestra? This is interesting to know, because most of us perform a concerto with amateur orchestras, not professional ones. For example, the grieg concerto is not that difficult and is frequently performed by amateur orchestras with succes.

Do you have any insight on this? I am especially interested in these concertos:

- Beethoven: piano concerto no. 4
- Chopin two concerti
- Schumann: piano concerto
- Edvard Grieg: piano concerto a-minor
- Saint-Säens: piano concerto no. 4 c-minor
- Rachmaninov: piano concerto no. 2 c-minor
- Rachmaninov: Raphsody on a theme by Paganini
- Manuel de Falla: Noches en los jardines de España

[mikey6]

The Chopin are not hard, obviously coz the orchestra doesn't do much and once they're accostomed to your rubato, it's pretty clean sailing.  The Rach Pag is an absolute pain in the arse, the orchestral part is rather difficult and there are some tricky ensemble issues.
I've played these with orch so I have a fair idea.

[prongated]

...can we add Rach 3 to the list as well? I want to work out whether my university's orchestra can do it. Thanks!

[pianistimo]

order from easiest to hardest for orchestra (my guesstimation):

saint-saens
chopin
grieg
schumann
rach 2
beethoven 4
rach rhapsody
manuel de falla

question:  why is saint-saens fourth concerto rarely performed?  is there unusual orchestration in it?  isn't the orchestra always subordinate in saint-saens.  the rach 2 however - seems to partner with the soloist, right?  and definately beethoven 4 seems to need a duo-lyricism between soloist and orchestra.  did you know it was the first concerto after the heiligenstadt testament was written?

the reason i thought the rhapsody and 'nights in the gardens of spain' would be more difficult for orchestra - is unusual orchestration and random movement.  what concerto is the most difficult to play with orchestra (of any - not just this list)?  busoni?  it seems that one is totally mindless after 1/2 way.  you go through bach, beethoven, schumann, chopin, liszt - imitations and then come to this wierd chorale at the end.  to my way of thinking - or not thinking - this is the most insane concerto i've ever heard.

[the_duck]

i'd imagine that the brahms concerti are pretty tough for the orchestra- first, because the orchestra has such a central role that they're virtually symphonies, and second, because brahms didn't really cater to the niceties of a particular instrument- he just wrote pretty much what he wanted and let the performer worry about the difficulty 

[lazlo]

Having played violin in an orchestra for 6 years, I've played some of these, and am familiar with the scores of most of them.

Easiest to hardest:
1. Chopin
2. Grieg
3. Beethoven 4
4. Schumann
5. Rachmaninoff 2nd
6. Rhapsody on a theme by paganini

Don't know anyhtingt about the manuel de falla piano concerto, and never followed the score or played the saint saens... I wouldn't be too worried, orchestral parts for piano concerti in particular are really underwritten to highlight the soloist most of the time. Especially in any classical or romantic work. I think the brahms concerti are pretty difficult orchestral parts.. The order is pretty arbitrary, but they're all more or less at around the same level: not that hard.

[pianistimo]

but doesn't schumann's a minor concerto have a much thinner orchestration?  donald francis tovey writes the schumann concerto is 'so emanently beautiful from beginning to end, so free, spacious, and balanced in form, and so rich and varied in ideas.' 

this openness of orchestration is partly due to the fact that he did not start out to write a concerto, per se.  he actually called the first movement (which he was going to publish alone) 'phantasie in a minor.'  he described it as 'something between a symphony, a concerto, and a large sonata... a self-contained movement.'

subsequently in an effort to publish it - the name was changed to 'allegro affettuoso,' and then 'concert allegro,' opus 48.  schumann eventually decided to transform it into a full-length concerto.  liszt called the concerto 'a concerto without piano' because he heard the lyricism in it overriding the virtuosity factor.  chamber-music type orchestration and quasi-obbligato piano writing which does make the orchestra have an important role as the solo instrument.

i guess what i am saying is that i still consider beethoven's fourth concerto more difficult because even though there is lyricism - it's a more fair duo.  the piano and orchestra seem to balance each other - and there is more substance - making the piano seem more 'important.'  more instrumentation in the orchestra.  thicker sounding.

[lazlo]

The beethoven is probobly at around the same level as the schumann. Like I said, none of them are that hard at all orchestrally speaking except for the rachmaninoff, which is more just tricky. The rhapsody takes a lot of counting concentration, and has some fairly difficult passages interspersed throughout.

[Nordlys]

Thanks for the replies.
Anybody have any experience with DeFalla?

...Like I said, none of them are that hard at all orchestrally speaking except for the rachmaninoff, which is more just tricky. The rhapsody takes a lot of counting concentration, and has some fairly difficult passages interspersed throughout.

Do you mean both the rachmaninov are hard, or just the "rhapsody"? I think I heard about an amateur orchestra doing the rachmaninov 2nd.

[lazlo]

the two rachmaninoff's are difficult in different ways. The rhapsody is primarily a counting issue, but the soloist is less reliant on them, so it doesn't matter as much if they mess us. The second concerto isn't incredibly technically difficult like I've said, but they play a much larger role in the big picture, so if I was choosing between the two and I was playing with a questionable orchestra I would go with the rhapsody ... Not that I'd choose a piece based on the orchestra I was going to be playing with. Its just annoying to listen to the rach 2 performed by amateur orchestras that can't play in tune, because you hear them all the time! Again, rhapsody and 2nd concerto, different difficulties, depends if you want to challenge the orchestra in counting, or just intonation and big picture. Of course these are concerns in ALL of hte pieces, but I think predominantly in teh works by rachmaninoff. hope this helps some.

[soliloquy]

Easiest to hardest:

Chopin Concerto 1
Grieg Concerto
Chopin Concerto 2
Saint-Saens Concerto 4
Schumann Concerto
Rachmaninov Concerto 2
Beethoven Concerto 4
Rachmaninov Rhapsody
De Falla Nights in the Gardens of Spain


Some other easier ones for an orchestra are going to be Beethoven 1/2, Ravel Left Hand, Liszt 1/Totentanz, Tchaikovsky 1/2/3.  Avoid Prok, Gershwin, Shosty and the other Ravel, along with Liszt 2.  Probably want to avoid most of the Mozart.