seicinta

[seicinta]

Hellow, it's my first day in your forum, excusme my bud english...I have a question: The musical code, is a lenguage or an idiom? What do you think about this?

[pianowolfi]

Well you may say it's a language with many idioms. But, are we really happy with this?
Sure, music is often said to be an universal language. But why don't we use Esperanto then, for instance, instead of music? Music is more than a language and more than a collection of idioms. It's contents are not expressable through any "normal" language. Free creativity in it's purest sense.

[seicinta]

Well you may say it's a language with many idioms. But, are we really happy with this?
Sure, music is often said to be an universal language. But why don't we use Esperanto then, for instance, instead of music? Music is more than a language and more than a collection of idioms. It's contents are not expressable through any "normal" language. Free creativity in it's purest sense.

[seicinta]

Thanks for read my question, but I know that music is a universal idiom, I want go so far, If the people express theirs emotions , words...whith their idiom, why they do'nt understand the music idiom/lenguage?..The music not only express emotions, ..and, an idiom has a language (grammair, vocabulary.)We learn to express our emotions, wishes..with the mother's lenguage, and then if our parents wants we study the form of change this idiom for the music idiom, there are two works.Learn and then translate.Is that that I want express

[pianowolfi]

I think that music is even a better language than the "normal" language since it is an expression of the deepest essence of human nature. I think before we learn the "normal" language" we already understand music. We react directly. A baby first listens to the voice of the parents, to the tone and to the speech melody before it is able to grasp the content. So music is closer to our original understanding of the world and ourselves.

So I think that we actually don't learn music by translating from our "normal" language.

[seicinta]

If I think about this is just because my experience says to me, every day that i was play a concert, some persons comes to say me: Thanks ,because I understand this piece (is an example) I know that you say about the first sounds that an human heard in the begining, but I do'nt think that the music are before the humanity, the music is a human product, if it's necessary is because with the words are not enough no??but we every day, playing, teaching...must search with ours pupils the form of comunicate, is'nt this translate?

[pianowolfi]

I know that you say about the first sounds that an human heard in the begining, but I do'nt think that the music are before the humanity, the music is a human product, if it's necessary is because with the words are not enough no??

Yes that's what I meant, it's a deeply human product. (well of course there would be more to say about this) And we need it because words are not enough.

but we every day, playing, teaching...must search with ours pupils the form of comunicate, is'nt this translate?

It may seem as translating, but it's more my ideal and dream to just open our senses to the music that is within us. We teach people to play an instrument, of course this needs technique, craftsmanship, know-how, practice and so on. But all this serves the purpose to unfold ourselves. To enlarge our expressive options.

I just found a very good remark from lostinidlewonder in the audition room

Music to me is something where I can express the inexpressible.

[seicinta]

When you say that the music is necessary for express the deeply i think because the emotions language, in a moment of history are been censureds  and it's necessary create another code..no?

[pianowolfi]

When you say that the music is necessary for express the deeply i think because the emotions language, in a moment of history are been censureds  and it's necessary create another code..no?

hmmmm you really make me think *a lot*  "censured" sounds so negative. Do you mean, music has been invented to steer around the censorship?

[seicinta]

Well, I search and search anf finally i don't found the answers, ¡t's my fault..I only want express my simple idea about, why is so difficoult express the emotions, finally, why is so difficoult speak with music...I think every composer users a different idiom, they user the same language an we must recognaice what idiom use every composer for  speak than he,it's all 

[soliloquy]

I don't think semantic debates are in the best interest of someone who does not speak the language everyone else is.

[pianowolfi]

I don't think semantic debates are in the best interest of someone who does not speak the language everyone else is.

Don't worry, I think we'll getting along pretty well

[seicinta]

I'm sorry, I leave your forum, because I understand that my opinions are'nt interesting for the great pianists, I only would express that I think in this moment, not pretends do great words about nothing, and I understand, if I can't speak correctly english I must leave your forum, thanks and repeat, I'm sorry, I'm spanish but you can't heard me playing piano, sure that it changes your opinion about me

[pianowolfi]

I'm sorry, I leave your forum, because I understand that my opinions are'nt interesting for the great pianists, I only would express that I think in this moment, not pretends do great words about nothing, and I understand, if I can't speak correctly english I must leave your forum, thanks and repeat, I'm sorry, I'm spanish but you can't heard me playing piano, sure that it changes your opinion about me

Seicinta, soliloquy was not criticizing you this is only a misunderstanding. okay?
I hope to see you back soon

Wolfi

[ryan2189]

I wouldn't necessarily say that music is a language at all. I believe that the term is used rather loosely. Music expreses emotions and shades of humanity and personality, but it is not a language because a message can never be directly commnicated from the composer to the listener. Each person wil interpret the music differently, and the composer has no control over that interpretation unless it is explained with a language. For example, Hector Berlioz wrote the Symphonie Fantastique with a specific story in mind- about the life of an artist and his beloved. However, this story was described before the concert was even given. I don't think the audience would understand the music in that sense unless it was announced and explained. At the same time, do you think a musically competent individual would have said "the plucking of the violins represets the artist's head falling into the basket after being executed at the guillotine" without knowing the intended context first? Obviously a person can understand music as joyful, angry, sily, loving, etc. but each one of those feelings has a breadth that canot be described with one definition. Languages allows for translation, however music allows for basic interprettion in that respect.

That still doesn't mean we can't try 

[pianowolfi]

Well .
Since I am sitting here together with seicinta, having a glass of wine, eating pizza and discussing again this question we both thought it might be interesting to come back to this thread. So far we have come to the conclusion that music is surely an universal language, but that all the musicians use it kind of differently. So every composer would have his/her own idiom.

The other day we were watching a couple from an eastern country and listening to them, asking ourselves what language they might speak. They use their mouth and tongue and teeth like us, but their words are different. We would have to learn their vocabulary to be able to understand them. Okay. So far it's clear. But now:
 
What is the difference between spoken language and music?

How does music from different cultures affect us as listeners? Does Chinese traditional music affect us as western listeners in the same way as Chinese listeners? And vice versa?

In what sense can we actually speak of music as a universal language?

A lot of open questions

[Karli]

What an interesting thread and some nice discussion, I see !  I have recently come across a New York Public broadcast where perhaps you will find some interesting thoughts along these lines.  I have posted the link in this thread here :

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,29084.msg335232.html#msg335232

Enjoy !