8 Years of Guitar, A Beginner at Piano

[count_yorik]

Hello,

I'm a very competent, self-taught guitarist + bassist of 8 years, my playing is of a high standard, both in the understanding of various techniques as well as my repertoire. (things like neo classical stylings and  technical death metal etc). I also have a very good ear for music too.

I decided to make the switch the piano, not as a replacement to the guitar/bass, but I figured because of my musical background and guitar experience I'd find it quite easy to pickup and become good at it quick.

I was gravely mistaken...

I've been playing my for just over 3 weeks now, and I'm finding the whole experience a lot of fun, however I seem to have hit some form of hurdle and I'm looking for some expertise from the users here.

I've learned 3 songs so far, Nine Inch Nails - The Frail and Leaving Hope (both hand parts simultaneously) and Muse - Space Dementia... They were difficult but I can play them well.

I've been trying to learn Yann Tiersen - Comptine d'un autre été L'après midi, and my word is it difficult, I've learned the majority of the song, but no matter how hard I try I cannot grasp the fast right hand section (while playing the left hand part simultaneously), so I figured, I was attempting something out of my league for my experience.

What I ask is, what should I learn next? Beethoven's Moonlight sonata sounds "possible", and Erik Satie's Gymnopedie + Gnossienne sounds achievable too.

Any suggestions?

(sorry for the length of the post)

[daniloperusina]

Sure! The two Satie pieces are probably quite 'easier' then the moonlight.

Mozart Sonata Facile in Cmajor K545 is a nice way to study scales and arpeggios for both hands, but it's hardly as 'easy' as the title suggests.

Some composers were interested in pedagogical pieces, for example

JS Bach: Check Henle's "Kleine Präludien und Fughetten" (=Little Preludes and Fughettas). They were meant as good excercise-pieces for beginners. The music is great, and it's not exactly for what we call 'beginner' today!

R Schumann: a collection of easier pieces called "Album for the young"

Tchaikovsky: "Album for the young"

B Bartok: "Mikrokosmos"

M Clementi: Six Sonatinas Opus 36. The first one is the standard piece for beginners in classical piano.

[alpacinator1]

Well, guitar and piano are actually quite different, particularily if you are playing heavy metal on the guitar, then attempting classical piano music. Neoclassical guitar shredding and technical death metal are by no means easy to play, but classical is a different technique. I don't reccomend learning popular music (NiN, etc.) for the piano. Really, you'll want to go with classical. The first movement on Moonlight Sonata is actually harder than it looks, and the third movement is VERY challeenging. Satie is good, you might also want to try some of Beethoven's sonatinas and bagatelles (such as Fur Elise).

[count_yorik]

Thanks for the helpful info! I really appreciate it!

I'm glad that you mentioned Moonlight Sonata is harder than it sounds, because at least now I know what I'd be letting myself in for when I come to learn it. 

As for the NIN + Muse songs, I figured I'd start off with something I am very familiar with (haven't been listening to classical for long). I don't really have much interest in learning rock/alternative stuff anyway.

As for the Yann Tiersen, it's strange, I started playing earlier on this evening and just thought I'd give it one last hopless attempt, and success! I can actually hit the right notes at the right time, it's very rudimetary at the moment, but at least it's a start!

I will definitely check out the recommendations.

Thanks again!

[alpacinator1]

Actually, for Moonlight Sonata, I think it depends on the person. It's in a tricky key signature, so that puts many people off (including myself). It requires some difficult hand stretches, but if you're an adult with large hands, this shouldn't be a huge problem. It's also difficult to play convincingly. Still, it's definately harder than it looks/sounds. I think you'd be better off learning Beethoven's Fur Elise (and some other bagatelles) and Sonatina in G. Then, once you've learned some of the basics, you can try and tackle MS.

daniloperusina has some good suggestions as well. The different opuses of composers intended for beginners are great, they aren't hard to play, but actually sound good, like real classical music (unline mary had a little lamb, etc) :p

I'd like to suggest Burgmuller's opus 100 as well as Schumann and Tchaikovsky's albums for the young. Similar idea there.

[notturno]

Cool, another guitarist!

I used to play the guitar and switched to piano a few years back; I still play the guitar from time to time.  I found that the most difficult part of learning the piano was developing even a minimal amount of independence between the left and right hands.  With the guitar, my picking hand would pretty much just follow the fretting hand and speed depended on the hands being in synch and the quality of the picking motion.  When I played piano pieces that had melodies that switched from hand to hand, or ran simultaneously, my brain would seize up.

I found that Bach's Inventions were a great way to teach the hand and the mind how to think and play in counterpoint; which I think is the biggest difference between playing the piano and the guitar. The Inventionshelped me to break a mental impasse when I was learning the keyboard.  This will also help your guitar playing and writing since it will expand your ability to hear how different musical lines work, or don't work, against one another.  On the keyboard you can hear right away how chords work against bass lines and so on, which is nice when you are writing music.

Since you seem to like the dark stuff, here are some links that I found useful.

Easy, dark and mysterious pieces (Charles Alkan's "Chanson de la folle au bord de la mer") is not very difficult.  It has a haunting melody over some heavy, dark and low register chords:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,6768.0.html

Dark/lububre pieces:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4590.0.html

Melancholy pieces:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2287.msg19431.html#msg19431

Haunting nocturnal pieces:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,1943.msg15389.html#msg15389


This link has these and some other useful repertoire links:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15871.0.html

Also, Schoenberg's Six Little Piano Pieces has a few pieces that are fairly simple, twisted, and more accessible than his later material.

Enjoy.


Joseph

[count_yorik]

Wow, what an insightful post!

I'm at work at the moment, so I'll have to wait until I finish before I can check out the links you've given me.

It's nice to meet a like-minded individual.

Thanks again!

[danny elfboy]

You need to consider yourself a total beginner and ignore that you've been a guitarist for 8 years. You need a foundation in order to get accostumed with the basis of piano/keyboard playing. If you start immediately by sightreading songs or pieces and attempting to play at once you won't build those foundations that need to become automatic and subconscious.

So start with analyzing your posture, your body use and your feeling while sitting at the piano. Are you at the correct height? Are your arms and shoulders confortable? Can you reach the pedal without strain? Do you feel tense or relaxed? Do you feel like you can easily control the whole keyboard or feel dishoriented?

Don't underestimate the important of all of this and take some time to really analyze this aspect of your playing. With the guitar you had to find a balance and the most confortable way to hold it and play it, and with the piano it's the same.

Just play few consecutive notes very slowly in the middle-C position.
How do you feel? In control? Relaxed? Do your fingers move smoothly and easily? Are playing in a horizontal way or vertical way? Is your hand aligned with the wrist and the arm or is you wrist very low or very high?

Now play those notes faster. Still feels good and in control? Can you recognize the moment in which you can't go any faster without losing control of your fingers?

Can you invent new exercises on the middle-C position?
The most useful exercise is to "convert" the five notes C-D-E-F-G into all the figures you can think of (i.e. series of sixteenth, syncope, counterythm, rest and note, note and rest, staccato, legato, by thirds, tied notes, dotted notes and so on)

When something doesn't feel comfortable and you don't feel in control anymore, just stop, breathe and think of a better way to play those notes until you find the way which makes you feel comfortable and in control of your playing.

When you can do this switch to another position like the G to C position in the bass cleff (with the left hand) or the G to C in the treble cleff or right hand.

Take the piece you have chosen and play first the left hand one bar, then stop, relax, breathe and focus on playing the next bar in the most comfortable, efficient, econical and in control way possible, then stop, relax, breathe and do the same for the next bar and so on. When you have done this with your left hand switch to the right hand.

What you are building in this way, day by day, is the same foundation that the weight lifter build in front of the mirror looking for a "proper form" even before picking up any weight, or the foundation of the ballet dancer that do exercises at the bar even before attempting an assolo in the stage or the foundation of the Karate Kid, which deals with motions in isolation (painting the fence, smoothing the porch, cleansing the cars) even before applying those to the real karate principles and goals.

[rc]

I came to piano from guitar as well (my reason was that I was sick of dealing with other 'musicians' and classical piano sounded good solo ).  It can be a shock to go from being competent to being a beginner.  Playing more than one melodic line was quite the hurdle, on guitar I was used to soloing just the melody, which doesn't cut it for piano where you're expected to do what might be done by 2 or 3 people in a band.

But your experience with guitar will help you learn faster.  Not just familiarity with music, but also the problem-solving mentality of physically hitting the notes - getting from point A to point B.  You can take piano as far as you care to, I've gotten so involved that I've hardly touched my guitars in years.