Beethoven's Waldstein

[gregh87]

I just started this piece, and I remember my teacher saying something about a difficult glissando somewhere in this piece.  So do you play the fast octaves in the Presto part of the third movement like you'd play a glissando?  They sound pretty ridiculous in the Ashkenazy recording I've listened to.  Are they like octave-glissando's for one hand?

[retrouvailles]

I've heard them played as glisses and not as glisses (different attacks for each one). The latter way is certainly more difficult, but I think it has a better sound than an octave gliss.

[daniloperusina]

Yes, octave glissandos. Both hands.
Maybe there's still Claudio Arrau on youtube playing this sonata. If you want to see an 80-year old who can do it...

[retrouvailles]

These aren't true octave glissandos. That is just the way many people choose to execute them because of the tempo. They can be executed without resorting to glissados. it even has a better sound, in my opinion.

Here are true octave glisses, for those that are interested:



For the Waldstein you have a choice. For this, you don't.

[viking]

Haha what is that?

[retrouvailles]

That's taken from Lowell Liebermann's 1st Piano Concerto.

[daniloperusina]

Then how do you interpret this piece of evidence? This is Beethoven's manuscript, and as you can see he asks for pedal off, legato slur, pp, and he asks for fingers 5 and 1 on each octave! Why would he specify a fingering in his manuscript for octaves in a C-major scale? Note that other passages here don't have fingerings. I beleive this is the first instance where a glissando is notated in a score. Liebermann's concerto is much later, and the term "gliss" in a score has become standard (as has glissandos themselves).
So, Beethoven is actually specific, and he does not leave you a choice.
This is actually copyrighted by Beethoven Haus Bonn,
www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de
but I hope it's ok..

[jehangircama]

I've an Ashkenazy rec of this piece that I really like, and he isn't doing the gliss. even in my score, which is an urtext, gliss is not marked ( as shown in the ms). when I heard it in a concert, the glissando seemed out of place (probably coz i was not used to it). i agree with retrouvailles, it sounds better without the glissandos.

[daniloperusina]

If your score is an urtext, what fingering does it show? On the same page where I found the ms there's also the first edition. It follows the ms precisely. Point is, Beethoven is very clear. It's also apparent that the passage must be played legato and pianissimo.
I've played it and studied it myself and I'm of course very well aware of the fact that some pianists don't do a glissando. Throughout the history of this sonata it's always been a trouble spot, and the fact that so many has had a problem here has caused this tradition of skipping the glissando altogether. It may sound as good or better in your opinion, but it's still 'wrong' according to the manuscript and first edition. Play it as you wish, just be aware of what B's original intention was.

Also, the heavier the action is, the more difficult it is to do a gliss. Hence, easier on Beethoven's piano, more difficult today.

Aschkenazy's hands are small, I think. Arrau's are bigger, as are Gilels' (who also glisses).

[jehangircama]

the fingering is 5-1 throughout without pedal, but that doesn't guarantee that it is a glissando, imo

[dan101]

I'm in the 'do them as non-glissandos camp'. This amounts to rapid hands together scales, which gives more accuracy and neatness. Much depends on the type of sound that you want in your interpretation. For me, I prefer the accuracy.

[point of grace]

yes, they´re great

look for the arrau´s performance!!!!