"playing up"

[thalberg]

Who here has heard of "playing up?"  I have heard about it and also read about it, but I have never gotten a satisfactory description of what exactly this phrase means.

If someone could explain it to me in detail I'd appreciate it.

And I would also appreciate it if someone could direct me to an excellent printed source regarding this subject.

[ramseytheii]

What context have you heard it in?  I've heard people describe sound that goes 'up,' and I've read an article about Argerich which says she told a student in a masterclass to imagine they were playing the piano from beneath the keyboard, ie, playing up.

If the latter is the case, I would guess it's a mental image that frees the hand from tension, because if you turn your hand upside down and pretend to play the piano, your fingers feel a lot stronger and more secure, especially the 4th finger.

If it's sound, I think it refers to a general mental image designed to give a timid player more projection; when playing in crowded spaces, there's often a lot of ambient noise you've got to compete with, and you have to be able to project over it.

Just a couple of guesses!

Walter Ramsey

[dan101]

Perhaps you mean "playing out". "Playing out", in my experience,  is imagining a large hall and playing so that your sound is heard in the last row. It is essentially a technique for increasing the fullness of your volume. Unfortunately, I haven't heard of "playing up".

[michael_langlois]

Perhaps it is the pianistic equivalent of an up-bow?

[schubertiad]

My piano is currently "playing up". One of the e flats won't sound.

[mcgillcomposer]

Hey Thal,

The term 'playing up' has been described to me as the last part of a standard circular motion (that matches the body rhythm). Take, for example, the Grieg sonata in E minor, Op. 7. I the first movement, there are two instances of an arpeggio figure that ascends near the top of the keyboard. One would play this beginning with an attack (a down), and finish on the up.

In the left hand, this is often used for fast leaps (as in la Campanella or Beethoven's Op. 31/1 first mvmt.). It is as if your hand is springboarding off the bass note.

This, in any case, is my interpretation.

Let me know what you find out!

[michael_langlois]

Hey Thal,

The term 'playing up' has been described to me as the last part of a standard circular motion (that matches the body rhythm). Take, for example, the Grieg sonata in E minor, Op. 7. I the first movement, there are two instances of an arpeggio figure that ascends near the top of the keyboard. One would play this beginning with an attack (a down), and finish on the up.

In the left hand, this is often used for fast leaps (as in la Campanella or Beethoven's Op. 31/1 first mvmt.). It is as if your hand is springboarding off the bass note.

This, in any case, is my interpretation.

Let me know what you find out!

This is exactly what comes to my mind!  One might also "play up"(or sideways, but certainly not down) the bass notes in something like Chopin's sixths étude, op. 25 no. 8.  I'm always  interested to hear the different terms used for the same movement.

Michael

[paulpiano]

I've heard people describe sound that goes 'up,' and I've read an article about Argerich which says she told a student in a masterclass to imagine they were playing the piano from beneath the keyboard, ie, playing up.

If the latter is the case, I would guess it's a mental image that frees the hand from tension, because if you turn your hand upside down and pretend to play the piano, your fingers feel a lot stronger and more secure, especially the 4th finger.

If it's sound, I think it refers to a general mental image designed to give a timid player more projection; when playing in crowded spaces, there's often a lot of ambient noise you've got to compete with, and you have to be able to project over it.

I'm sorry to say that sometimes, even great Masters talk rubbish!

[thalberg]

Paulpiano, I really don't think that was rubbish, and please don't put down other peoples' comments unless you have your own insight to add to the mix.

[michael_langlois]

Paulpiano, I really don't think that was rubbish, and please don't put down other peoples' comments unless you have your own insight to add to the mix.

I believe he is referring to Argerich's suggestion in the first paragraph...

[thalberg]

I believe he is referring to Argerich's suggestion in the first paragraph...

I see your point.

[ramseytheii]

Maybe it was rubbish and maybe not, but she was definitely trying to describe in words an experience which is clear to her physically, and I think there should be something we can learn from that.  Turning the hand palm-up and moving the fingers is in many ways a more suitable way to play a keyboard instrument, just from a physical perspective, so I suspect that she was getting at a mental image to relax the hand and have the fingers move with assurance and force, like in her playing.  I could be wrong, but... I could also be right.

Walter Ramsey

[paulpiano]

Paulpiano, I really don't think that was rubbish, and please don't put down other peoples' comments unless you have your own insight to add to the mix.

I'm talking about GREAT MASTERS. I'm referring to Rachmaninov's, Gieseking's, and even great teachers like Neuhaus suggestions on piano playing.
Do you really think that you can "play up" the piano? Or from beneath the keyboard, ie, playing up? Try it yourself and let me know...
I'm not judging anybody, I'm just observing...

[ramseytheii]

I think you are taking it all too literally.  If this playing up - as I imagine it - was a Bible passage, it would be told as a parable.  It's meant to give a provocative image as a way to convey an intuitive feeling.  my guess is, the image to be conveyed is a strong, decisive action onto the keyboard.  If you turn your hand palmside up, you find it is easier, especially with the fourth finger, to achieve a strong, decisive action.

On another post, someone remarked that every note played should be preceded by a preparatory motion.  They probably meant lifting the fingers up.  But as you can see turning the hand palmside up, it is much easier to play when the fingers don't lift up, but play up.  Now, if you turn the hand palmside down, imagining you are "playing up," your fingers won't roam around so much, will stay focussed, and can achieve a dynamic, strong, decisive action.  This is my best guess and if I do say so myself, I think it's a damn good one.

Imagery shouldn't be taken literally in this case, like in all images that a teacher imparts.  Instead, the imagery should be mined for inspiration and for furthering perceptive knowledge about the relation between the body and the keyboard.

Walter Ramsey


PS So far original poster has not said what context he heard this in, so I could be totally off the mark.  Was it in the context of the sound, or the physical approach, or projection during performance, or what?  Very curious to know.

[cygnusdei]

Would this be anything related to "marrying up"?

[thalberg]

PS So far original poster has not said what context he heard this in, so I could be totally off the mark.  Was it in the context of the sound, or the physical approach, or projection during performance, or what?  Very curious to know.

Well, I heard it in context of all of the above--it is supposed to be some sort of way to achieve a physical approach which produces a certain sound. 

"Pulling the sound from the keys" was one thing that I read in a book.  Obviously this is physically impossible, but I am trying to get at what the meaning was--it must refer to SOME kind of execution, but since it is not a literal explanation I am left to wonder.

An excellent teacher in my acquaintance talks about playing up--but she describes it in terms of managing weight.  She seemed to want her students to play with rather light arms yet somehow transfer  weight to the keys.  I do not understand her approach, but she used the phrase 'playing up' quite a bit, and like I said, I also read it in a book.  Thus, it must not be unique to this one teacher.  So I was wondering if anyone else knew.

The idea about turning the hand so it's facing up sounds interesting to me, because if you maintain that sensation as you turn your hand over, it does result in a rather light, well-supported feeling in the arm.

Any other ideas?

[ramseytheii]

Pulling the sound refers to a specific type of touch that is documented as far back as in descriptions of Bach and Beethoven's technique.  Bach's organ technique was described as stroking the keys in order to make a perfect legato between the tones; Beethoven was described as "dusting the keys."  They all refer to the same thing, a light and subtle stroking motion, useful in lots of different passages such as pearly passagio, dolce and delicate music, and non-legato and legato passages alike.

You can see it in plain view by watching Gould's DVD of the Goldberg Variations.  He plays with that stroke almost all of the time, excepting the variations that have a louder, more raucous character (you won't see it in variation 4, but you will in variation 5.)

Another idea behind flipping the palm over, is to show that lifting the fingers is not necessary.  The fourth finger especially becomes much more reliable when yuou don't endeavor to lift it, but use it as it is designed to be used.

Walter Ramsey

[thierry13]

An excellent teacher in my acquaintance talks about playing up--but she describes it in terms of managing weight.  She seemed to want her students to play with rather light arms yet somehow transfer  weight to the keys.  I do not understand her approach, but she used the phrase 'playing up' quite a bit, and like I said, I also read it in a book.  Thus, it must not be unique to this one teacher.  So I was wondering if anyone else knew.

That's what I began to be taugth (went to summer academy), and it actually works really great for both physical control, great sound and great technical accuracy! That coupled with the rest of all other technical matters he tougth, of course

[jinfiesto]

I think this refers to the idea of lifting sound. I think playing up is the same thing. The idea of lifting sound is to get it with an up-motion, which changes the tonal quality a bit. Playing up tends to be less harsh than "playing down". At least in my experience

[schubertiad]

Boris Berman describes a similar approach in his book 'notes from the piano bench', although i don't think he calls it 'playing up'. He talks about playing 'in' and 'out' as i remember. I think he suggests that for soft playing both 'in' (transferring your weight deliberately and slowly into the key) and 'out' (a fast attack, almost a plucking motion) are good, but for louder passages playing 'in' results in a harsh, banging tone, whereas playing 'out' gives a more singing, full sound. I hope i haven't done mr berman a disservice since i haven't read the book in quite a while, and always manage to mangle and distort things that i read and hear, but i think that was the crux of the point.