brahms violin sonata no.1 1st movement "vivace ma non troppo"?!?!?!?!

[nasalstein]

while listening to this piece played by mutter&weissenberg, i came up with a question which has been smouldering in my mind for years regarding its notation.
i have heard at least half a dozen records of this sonata so far and none of them sound "vivace ma non troppo".  instead they often sound "lent ma non troppo"or "andante".
i havent heard heifetz's, so i suspect he'd be one of the few who play it more like "vivace ma non troppo".
anyway, is there any reason why it has become a customary practice to play it so slow?
maybe scholars agreed at some point that brahms wrote the notation wrong?
i believe one can play that piece "vivace ma non troppo" without losing its beauty.
so... whats your take on this?

[general disarray]

anyway, is there any reason why it has become a customary practice to play it so slow?
maybe scholars agreed at some point that brahms wrote the notation wrong?
i believe one can play that piece "vivace ma non troppo" without losing its beauty.
so... whats your take on this?

I'm baffled, too, by this.  But, I think much of problem lies in the 1st mvt's compound meter of 6/4 with all those typically Brahmsian off-beat rhythmic shifts that tend to subvert the pulse continually.  Maybe "vivace" gets lost in the shuffle.  Every once in awhile the development does takes off and approaches a feeling of "vivace."  But, yes, it mainly feels andante to me, too.

I wonder if the sheer beauty of the themes and all those magical and surprising key changes induce performers to linger instead of pushing on to the last page.  Sort of what happens with Schubert sonata performances:  heavenly length stretched to hellish proportions.

   

[thracozaag]

I have the same quibble with most performances of the 1st movement of the Brahms D minor concerto--it's in 2, not 6.

[counterpoint]

It depends on what you expect a "normal" tempo. Most people nowadays take Prestissimo for the "normal" tempo, and everything that is slower than prestissimo they see as slow 

The meaning of Vivace is not "very fast" - but "full of life".

[berrt]

The meaning of Vivace is not "very fast" - but "full of life".

and "ma non troppo" - " but not too much"

[thracozaag]

As stated before, it's the pulse that's crucial.

[dinosaurtales]

I have been working on a Brahms cello sonata op 38 with the cello professor here, and the word on the street is that Brahms simply like slow tempi.  I have to really concentrate on keeping the tempo down.  The first movement of this cello sonata definitely sounds "too slow" for my taste.  I'll bet that's typical.

[thracozaag]

I have been working on a Brahms cello sonata op 38 with the cello professor here, and the word on the street is that Brahms simply like slow tempi.  I have to really concentrate on keeping the tempo down.  The first movement of this cello sonata definitely sounds "too slow" for my taste.  I'll bet that's typical.

  I don't mean to contradict the professor, but this whole notion (don't know where it started) of Brahms liking slow tempi is simply not true.

[counterpoint]

and "ma non troppo" - " but not too much"

Yes, that's right 

And Brahms adds  ma non troppo to almost every tempo signature 

op.117 No.2 has the signature "Andante non troppo e con molto espressione"

Now what is Andante non troppo?  -  Even Andante would be too fast   

[Kassaa]

Andante ma non troppo could mean faster than andante or slower than andante. Lento ma non troppo is slow but not too slow, thus faster than lento.

[dinosaurtales]

  I don't mean to contradict the professor, but this whole notion (don't know where it started) of Brahms liking slow tempi is simply not true.

Well, I would be happy to have some kind of official info on that, because this thing is going way too slow for my liking!  It needs to perk up a bit to make it "float" better.

[thracozaag]

Any good biography (the Swafford is excellent) would give you a good insight into how his mind and musical ethos was shaped.  There are recordings of those who worked with Brahms--Carl Friedberg (who also worked with Clara Schumann) in particular--which are invaluable documents that illuminate performance practice as well with regard to tempi, phrasing, etc.

[nasalstein]

the meaning of Vivace is not "very fast" but "full of life"

yes, and Largo doesnt mean "very slow" (strictly speaking).
but, to my ear, say, perlman's performance sounds more like "full of daydreams"
mmm, daydream is part of life, eh?

[richard black]

Andante ma non troppo could mean faster than andante or slower than andante.

No, it means 'going [i.e. moving but not too much', so not too fast.

This disputed 'Vivace ma non troppo': just try conducting the movement. If the beat is assumed 2 in a bar, the resulting speed for anything that could be remotely described as a 'vivace' beat is plainly ridiculous, so it must be in 6. A typical speed for performances I've heard is indeed a plausible 'vivace' or thereabouts in 6.

[nasalstein]

I wonder if the sheer beauty of the themes and all those magical and surprising key changes induce performers to linger instead of pushing on to the last page.  Sort of what happens with Schubert sonata performances:  heavenly length stretched to hellish proportions.
   

i do agree.
actually, i myself have always played the opening chords rather slow to give each chord enough time to penetrate almost instinctively. the music seem to compel one to play like that.
so i understand the general tendency to play it andante.
still, i think i'd have been convinced if brahms wrote "andante" instead of "vivace ma non troppo"
and "con moto MA NON TROPPO" at the begining of second theme.
 

[nasalstein]

BTW, what's the difference between "pulse" and "beat"?

[franzliszt2]

Look at the score, and count the beats. You will see that the Brahms violin sonata isn't actually that slow.

Vivace also means lively, not fast. And the piece is rather lively, in a very innocent way. It's not exactly a Strauss waltz sort of lively.

I love this piece, it's amaizng.