when is the use of rubato desirable?

[aewanko]

title says it.

[pianochick93]

When it adds to the flow, atmosphere, and general feel of the piece.

[gerry]

You'll know when you no longer have to ask this question.

[faulty_damper]

You'll know when you no longer have to ask this question.

I agree completely though developing this skill can take time and most people NEVER develop it, even some very good pianists.  But they just stay as pianists and not musicians.  Development of this skill is difficult because other skills must also have been developed to be aware of it.  Usually, those who can't keep a steady pulse have failed to develop these other musicianship skills.

 It's one thing to put ketchup on a hamburger and onto french fries but to put it on top of ice cream and into soda?  That's just disgusting!  Another issue with this concept of rubato is that the word was originally used to describe an actual observable event.  This event was the slight stretching and contracting of pulse to help phrase a musical event.  Unfortunately, those original observers of this musical event took it out of context and applied it everywhere and subsequent generations were taught this concept without musical context to which it should occur.  This IS disgusting!

[dana_minmin]

It's one thing to put ketchup on a hamburger and onto french fries but to put it on top of ice cream and into soda?  That's just disgusting! 

Your metaphor is PERFECT!

[counterpoint]

It depends on what you want to express.

Rubato cannot be discussed in general, every single situation (even the playing of only 2 or 3 notes) has to be decided carefully.

There's no switch like  rubato on / rubato off.

[guendola]

It depends on what you want to express.

Rubato cannot be discussed in general, every single situation (even the playing of only 2 or 3 notes) has to be decided carefully.

There's no switch like  rubato on / rubato off.

Romantic music (the style) and especially Chopin are known for the extensive use of rubato  (however, Alkan didn't like it at all and suggested that even Chopin should be played the classical way but he was quite alone with that at his time and even today). Well, rubato is an extra tool for expression and the best way, to learn when to use rubato is to try it out. Humming alone can help a lot, our voice is the most expressive musical instrument on earth and it has a lot of automatic "features".

[faulty_damper]

Romantic music (the style) and especially Chopin are known for the extensive use of rubato  (however, Alkan didn't like it at all and suggested that even Chopin should be played the classical way but he was quite alone with that at his time and even today). Well, rubato is an extra tool for expression and the best way, to learn when to use rubato is to try it out. Humming alone can help a lot, our voice is the most expressive musical instrument on earth and it has a lot of automatic "features".

I have to disagree with the statement that the music of Chopin is romantic with extensive use of rubato based on Chopin's own statements and those of his pupils.  Chopin was appalled that some of his students and other pianists played his works in such an abhorrent manner.  He condemned this fancy-of-the-times, among others, that was so prevalent by certain pianists (e.g. Liszt).

Chopin's compositions do not sound good with "rubaaatooo" because:
The forms of his music are based on classical forms.  The sonatas follow sonata form and the minatures usually follow ternary form.  The reason why these forms developed and why they are still in use today is because it provides a musical struture that gives balance.  Chopin's music has very clear forms that allow the other musical elements, most notably melody, to create a balance.

Now imagine what it would be like to apply "rubato" to music that cannot sustain such a device.  Imagine the sonatas of Mozart, Haydn, Clementi, or Beethoven performed in such a manner.  You probably have to imagine it because all good musicians never use such a device in these kinds of works.  Because all the aspects of the music - motive, phrase, expression, form, etc. - require good pacing of the musical elements to be effective, distorting the aspect of time will destroy the structure of the piece by disrupting the balance of the musical elements.  This applies to Chopin's music as well which lead to another important point.

Chopin's music isn't romantic at all.  All of his music is extremely well balanced to the ear.  It's not lopsided like those of Liszt's so let's survey Liszt's.  Some of Liszt's compositions contain musical ideas that do not naturally balance themselves.  Take any of the Hungary rhapsodies or the Years of Pilgrimage whose musical ideas tend to tip the balance scale one way or the other but doesn't contain a counter balance.  In order to balance the piece, and this is the reason a musician would "use" rubato: The use of such a device allows a performer to create a sense of aesthetic balance that does not distort the musical idea.  Rather, this device creates the framework for the musical ideas to stand upon.


Why is Chopin's music considered romantic?  His music was never considered romantic until his contemporaries used this term, which was originally used to describe paintings of emotional content, to his music.  But even before this, his music was considered modern, in the same sense that we call the musik of Stockhausen, Cage, Rzewski, Lutoslawski, et al, modern.  In fact, many of the slightly older generation couldn't understand Chopin's music at all.  For the older generation, the moderness came from the use of very innovative harmonies and melody-driven compositions.  Contrast this to the music that was written and it's quite revolutionary, and Chopin was unique in this sense.  The extensive use of long, flowing melodies, which dominates his compositions, to propel the music forward is perhaps the biggest reason many people consider his music "romantic": It sounds romantic.

Or course, what made Chopin even possible at all was the modern piano (modern in his time, not ours).  The figurations possible on the piano during his time was not possible on previous pianos.  As a result, musical accompaniments could be as original or old-fashion as the action of the the piano allowed and Chopin made great use of the flexibility offered.  This novelty, made such an impact on ears that they were to be copied by many other pianist-composers, like Liszt.  These new figurations also made a perceptual divide upon the ears separating what we now call the classical style and the romantic style.

Even if we were to continue to label Chopin's music as romantic, this does not justify the use of unnecessary rubato.  His compositions are already well-balanced pieces of art that doesn't need any extra help.


Chopin's music is like an exquisite gourmet; the chef has prepared everything to be perfectly balanced and palatable so you don't have to add seasoning to enhance the flavour.
Liszt's music is like a hotdog: the more ketchup, mustard, onions, and relish (and bells, whistles, the kitchen sink) you put on top of it, the better it tastes.

[dan101]

In climactic points; at certain phrase endings; anywhere you feel it. Of course, rubato must be interpreted based on the era of music being played. Romantic era music cannot possibly be treated in the same was as, for example , Baroque music.

Although past mentors of mine did try to give suggestions of rubato, it was always up to me (as a student) to determine the exact way of executing it. Your rubato is part of your unique interpretation.

[gerry]

I have to disagree with the statement that the music of Chopin is romantic with extensive use of rubato based on Chopin's own statements and those of his pupils.  Chopin was appalled that some of his students and other pianists played his works in such an abhorrent manner.  He condemned this fancy-of-the-times, among others, that was so prevalent by certain pianists (e.g. Liszt)  -  etc. etc. etc.

Couldn't disagree more with your treatise--up to your clever-sounding but inane analogies at the end.

[slobone]

There's a problem with the term rubato because no two people agree on exactly what it means. In Italian it means "stolen", oddly enough, and apparently originally referred only to the practice of "stealing" time from one note to give to another. That is, the left hand (usually) would keep a steady beat while in the right hand some notes were lengthened and others correspondingly shortened, much as in contemporary jazz. This was apparently the meaning in Chopin's time.

But today, the term has been s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d to mean just about any speeding up or slowing down of tempo. As such it's not a terribly useful term anymore.

My third teacher told me, "when you're playing Chopin, speed up if not much is happening and slow down when a lot is happening" but surely this is simplistic in the extreme. I was learning the e minor nocturne, which has the same figure in the left hand most of the way through. He wanted me to speed up in the middle of each measure and then slow down again towards the end of the measure. It almost made me seasick.

Look, there has to be a certain amount of rhythmic "give" in almost any music. Naturally the nature of the piece will determine how much you can do. A soulful slow movement allows for a more improvisatory approach to rhythm (even in Bach, I think) than a toccata, a march, or a minuet. And don't forget that Chopin wrote a lot of waltzes and mazurkas, which were actual dances. Presumably you should keep the rhythm steady when playing them, though mostly people don't.

And then there's something called agogic accent, which  means a hesitation before playing a single note, that you hear quite a lot in Chopin performances, although I believe it goes back at least to the Baroque. Often mistaken for rubato, whatever that is...

[guendola]

Even if we were to continue to label Chopin's music as romantic, this does not justify the use of unnecessary rubato.

Do you think there are reasons to use unnecessary rubato?

I kept my answer simple because that's the best way to start using rubato at all while not knowing much about it. I sort of lied by generalising but the author of this thread will find out sooner or later and no harm will be done. When talking to a highly advanced student, my answer would be silly but him asking that question would be even sillier.

By the way, no matter how long your texts will be, Chopin will generally be considered a romantic composer and I never said that Chopins music has to be played with extensive rubato, I talked about a common opinion and such opinions are hardly ever correct but can be used as a guideline instead of nothing.