Piano Street - piano sheet music
December 03, 2008, 12:51:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
   Forum Home   Help Search  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Work on rhythm, character, fluency, memory, ear and voice with Solmization  (Read 885 times)
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« on: March 02, 2008, 07:15:49 AM »

Here 2 new videos with my student (at the time of recording he just turned 5). Pretty funny videos indeed  Wink! On one I was trying to explain Anker how hard to live in a shoe and to have too many children to feed. His answer was: 'Why don't they go to work?'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLoUXzlb-yo

On the second video we played a game. I  'hired' Anker as an accompanist and offer 'good pay' in music dollars, if he would listen to my singing. So, as you will see he was very close of being 'fired', but caught my singing at last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7ojTzdYec

The aim of this topic is to share with you, how much Solfeggio (no 'movable Do', please  Grin) can help to develop different aspects of child's 'music mind'. On this videos you would see how Solmization along with playing piano helps to build skills to sing in tune. On the top of that singing Solfeggio applies  to the one of the most developed skills of any healthy child – speech memory.

*After such exercises my children are able to write down any melody that they learned, they have no problems transposing them and in future they decode many music pieces into Solfeggio syllables (in DIFFERENT KEYS). I already promised to start topic about music dictations. I will do it as soon as I can scan some pictures for this purpose. *
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
michael_langlois
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1122


« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 12:17:37 PM »

You might be interested in this page which seems to serve your purpose:

http://www.patphil.com/dieudonnee_english.htm

Best,

ML
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 02:21:44 PM »

You might be interested in this page which seems to serve your purpose:

http://www.patphil.com/dieudonnee_english.htm

Best,

ML

Thank you, Michael!
In Russia we have similar curriculum in state music schools and students study Solfeggio from 6 years old every week for academic hour and half. In fact, no musician can get into music secondary school or university without passing music dictation exam and Solfeggio sight-reading.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 06:34:11 AM »

New video of lesson with 3-year-old girl. Wonderful Soleggio singer!
You also could hear voice of her 7-year-old brother singing Solfeggio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqDEnAY377Q
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
dora96
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 208


« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 05:31:00 AM »

New video of lesson with 3-year-old girl. Wonderful Soleggio singer!
You also could hear voice of her 7-year-old brother singing Solfeggio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqDEnAY377Q

Question about Soleggio, if there is no moveable Do, it will be ok for students to play song written in C major. What I experience that if the song is written in Eb major the Do will Eb, the Soleggio will be wrong. Could you explain how does it work with this method? I used to play with electric organ in a club before, the song it is written form of numbers from 1 to 8 which represent the Soleggio for easy transposing. Once I know the melodies in Soleggio, as matter of working out the different keys. However  the song is not always in C. How do I explain to the students the different scales with different key signatures, how to teach them sing with flat and sharp or even in minor keys.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 08:14:07 AM »

Question about Soleggio, if there is no moveable Do, it will be ok for students to play song written in C major. What I experience that if the song is written in Eb major the Do will Eb, the Soleggio will be wrong. Could you explain how does it work with this method? I used to play with electric organ in a club before, the song it is written form of numbers from 1 to 8 which represent the Soleggio for easy transposing. Once I know the melodies in Soleggio, as matter of working out the different keys. However  the song is not always in C. How do I explain to the students the different scales with different key signatures, how to teach them sing with flat and sharp or even in minor keys.

Dora,
Why make 2 steps to connect sounds with letter of alphabet and then with  Solfeggio syllable, if you can make only one?
There are 7 modes and children memorize them pretty fast.
In Russian music school at Solfeggio lessons we sang, for example: Sol La Ti Do Re Mi Fa# Sol. But my students sing with no pronunciation of sharps and flats, but keeping them in mind during singing and playing (or singing inside)
Advantage?
They develop voice, ear, theory and ability to write music down in any key on the fly.
For training we use flash cards, these circles (students have to say them from 1-1,2-2,3-3,4-4,5-5,6-6 like a poem fast back and forth and of cause computer program 'Note Alphabet' (you may download free Demo from here) -http://www.doremifasoft.com/notealphabet.html (if you press I - it would be Solfeggio, A – alphabet note names)
About advantages of using Solfeggio note names I wrote here:
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,29070.0.html

No problems with Major/Minor, with modulations or transposition.


* NoteCircles1.jpg (22.75 KB, 206x206 - viewed 197 times.)

* NoteCircles2.jpg (38.75 KB, 412x412 - viewed 198 times.)

* NoteCircles3.jpg (38.72 KB, 412x412 - viewed 199 times.)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 08:46:51 AM »

Quote
There are 7 modes and children memorize them pretty fast.
Ah, now something you wrote before makes sense.  I remember you wrote something like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star like this:
1. do do so so la la so - fa fa mi mi re re do
2. re re la la ti ti la - so so fa fa mi mi re
3. mi mi ti ti do do ti - la la so so fa fa mi
etc.

So essentially they were sung in modes: # 1 is in Ionian, # 2 is in Dorian, # 3 is in Phrygian etc.  I think you have to state that or else people will be confused.  They will think that you are keeping to the diatonic scale and modulating from the key of C to the key of D, and then it does make sense if for # 2 you don't sharp "fa" because you haven't told them it is modal.

I understand that this is how you were taught?  After being able to do this the next stage was to be able to add sharps and flats for a diatonic sclae becuase you were well versed in pitch?  I have a feeling that I learned in the opposite direction of how you learned, but ended up integrating pitch and relativity in one consciousness too.  Only you went from pitch as solfege names and into the relativity, and I went from relativity into pitch, adding the alphabet names, but thinking both.

The wheels go in endless circles in thirds and then fourths always ending at do.  Do your students say them, or do they also sing them?  The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
dora96
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 208


« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 12:51:40 PM »

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 02:29:13 PM »

Hellene, You have lost me too, with these circles! I would like to understand how they are used.

KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.

Hellene, I still dont understand how they would know which notes must be played sharp or flat in keys other than DO. They would hear it is wrong and adjust once it was played, as in your videos, but how would they know before they try the keys? 
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 03:07:23 PM »

Ah, now something you wrote before makes sense.  I remember you wrote something like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star like this:
1. do do so so la la so - fa fa mi mi re re do
2. re re la la ti ti la - so so fa fa mi mi re
3. mi mi ti ti do do ti - la la so so fa fa mi
etc.

So essentially they were sung in modes: # 1 is in Ionian, # 2 is in Dorian, # 3 is in Phrygian etc.  I think you have to state that or else people will be confused.  They will think that you are keeping to the diatonic scale and modulating from the key of C to the key of D, and then it does make sense if for # 2 you don't sharp "fa" because you haven't told them it is modal.

I understand that this is how you were taught?  After being able to do this the next stage was to be able to add sharps and flats for a diatonic sclae becuase you were well versed in pitch?  I have a feeling that I learned in the opposite direction of how you learned, but ended up integrating pitch and relativity in one consciousness too.  Only you went from pitch as solfege names and into the relativity, and I went from relativity into pitch, adding the alphabet names, but thinking both.

The wheels go in endless circles in thirds and then fourths always ending at do.  Do your students say them, or do they also sing them?  The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?



The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?


JohnK explained the idea correctly

'KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.'

In addition to that I have to say that the circles have to be saying, not singing. This is what we call Solmization,
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 03:34:59 PM »

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.

Dora, if you try (for a moment) to forget that music notes are CDEFGAB. They are Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti, it would be easier for you to understand. Do – is always Do and it is always before 2 black keys.

These circles are three essential orders of music notation, a fundament for learning 24 major and 24 minor keys, intervals, chords and sharps and flats appearance on the staff. There is no any other order in music notation.

You could replace on the circles each Do with C, Re with B, Mi with E etc. But it is hard to say the circles with Alphabet letters – harder to memorize them with your voice. Because to say  C D E F G A B C is easier then to say C B A G F E D C, but music sounds going up and down (back and forth all the time). Therefore to memorize on speech level Sol La Ti Do Re Mi Fa Sol Sol Fa Mi Re Do Ti La Sol is easier the G A B C D E F G G F E D C B A G.

If every child from 2-3 would be able to learn this patterns on at least speech level, he is prepared for life to become musically literate. Every sound, every song he would listen to would subconsciously translate into these syllables through his voice. And he will be able to transpose on the fly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMsjF5uHgtI
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 03:48:07 PM »

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.

Hellene, You have lost me too, with these circles! I would like to understand how they are used.

They are being learned on a speech level like a poem. Pretend that I am saying this in my voice with reach Russian accent:

Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do
Do Ti La Sol Fa Mi Re Do

Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do Re
Re Do Ti La Sol Fa Mi Re

Or

Do Mi Sol Ti Re Fa La Do
Do La Fa Re Ti Sol Mi Do

Mi Sol Ti Re Fa La Do Mi
Mi Do La Fa Re Ti Sol Mi

Or

Do Fa Ti Mi La Re Sol Do
Do Sol Re La Mi Ti Fa Do

I can do entire circle in 15-20 seconds.


Quote
Hellene, I still dont understand how they would know which notes must be played sharp or flat in keys other than DO. They would hear it is wrong and adjust once it was played, as in your videos, but how would they know before they try the keys? 

John, they first  sight read a lot of music with computer and see all these sharps and flats in front of their eyes. They get use to different keys by playing and singing. After that when we move from easier music score to more advanced, they ask and I answer all the  theory questions about sharps and flats.  Why in Sol major (G Major) we have fa sharp and in Fa major (F)- Ti flat
 
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 04:33:52 PM »

Hellene, i can see that the three circles encompass all possible intervals up and down, if learnt clockwise and anti. Number 1. does 2nds and 7ths, 2. does 3rds and 6ths and 3. does 4ths and 5ths. So is this how it is used: The student sees the interval and quickly can say do-so or whatever from the appropriate circle? Not sing, just say.

Quote
with reach Russian accent:

 Grin

Its not so different from letters though. I teach students to say ABCDEFG and GFEDCBA. They learn EGBDF and FACE, so string these together and you get EGBDFACE. (I dont use the Every Good Boy stuff.) We could add the downwards way ECAFDBGE. The 4ths and 5ths are familiar already as the order of #s and bs: FCGDAEB and BEADGCF. I am not convinced that expanding these to do the exact equivalent of your solfa poems would be very difficult. There are so many english letter acronyms is everyday life, specially in computer age. IMHO, OTOH, ROFL, IYKWIM.

Obviously, I wont convince you, and maybe there are ways in which it doesnt work as well, but since you just speak, not sing these, I point out that it is not so different!
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
musicrebel4u
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 366


« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 04:58:09 PM »

Hellene, i can see that the three circles encompass all possible intervals up and down, if learnt clockwise and anti. Number 1. does 2nds and 7ths, 2. does 3rds and 6ths and 3. does 4ths and 5ths. So is this how it is used: The student sees the interval and quickly can say do-so or whatever from the appropriate circle? Not sing, just say.

 Grin

Its not so different from letters though. I teach students to say ABCDEFG and GFEDCBA. They learn EGBDF and FACE, so string these together and you get EGBDFACE. (I dont use the Every Good Boy stuff.) We could add the downwards way ECAFDBGE. The 4ths and 5ths are familiar already as the order of #s and bs: FCGDAEB and BEADGCF. I am not convinced that expanding these to do the exact equivalent of your solfa poems would be very difficult. There are so many english letter acronyms is everyday life, specially in computer age. IMHO, OTOH, ROFL, IYKWIM.

Obviously, I wont convince you, and maybe there are ways in which it doesnt work as well, but since you just speak, not sing these, I point out that it is not so different!

Agree!
Only the difference is: when they apply this to playing pieces, they sing it with Solfeggio and speech memory with exact pitch of piano keys helps to put voice into action. I checked with my students: when they are memorizing a piece and singing it with Solfeggio, they do it faster and easier, then with letters of alphabet.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 05:12:48 PM »

Quote
KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.

JohnK, it is indeed sung in modes, because M4U has just said so.  I am certain because when she first posted the variations I quoted, and I sang them as they were written, they came out modally.  And this time if you read her first post in this thread on the subject a few posts above mine, you will see the word "mode".

And because of my unusual background I believe that a child can sing in modes.  The reason I say that is because I remained a musical illiterate all my life with one exception: When I was about 8 years old we were taught solfege back in the 1960's using a vertical chart, and the teacher used a pointer for us to sing whatever pattern he would point at.  This became my one and only musical reference.  I played with those syllables that were in my head as though they were invisible building blocks.  I used to do the kind of thing at age 8 or 9 that Hellene has described while cleaning my room or going for walks the way somebody might doodle pictures.

How can I describe my perception?  THe solfege syllables were like a ladder with two unevenly spaced rungs (mi fa, ti do) and you could hope from rung to rung.  That ladder could slide on top of the gamut of pitches (ha! now I know how apt the word gamma-ut is!  Wink) and I seldom got lost musically.  The world of pitches which is the primary reference point for almost everyone was a totally foreign world to me.  I'm in my 50's, and I have only begun catching up recently.  I span both worlds, but as a learner.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 05:21:41 PM »

Ah, I see I was wrong.  However, you wrote this:
Quote
There are 7 modesand children memorize them pretty fast.

Did you mean, then, that there are 7 keys for the sharps, 7 keys for the flats, so 14, but since they have names starting with A B C D E F G which are do re mi fa sol la ti, there are in fact only 7?  For my own education, are these called modes?

I thought that mode meant the arrangement of intervals: for example the major diatonic scale, the Dorian, Phyrygian etc. each have a different place where semitones or tones are spaced, and these are called those particular modes regardless of what note (pitch) they start on.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 05:42:45 PM »

I see the two circles as being the pattern of thirds and fourths respectively, and if I say them I end up at the first and so can go through them endlessly.  I, too, can do them rapidly but my mind remains in movable do solfege since this has been my thinking for 40 years.  Currently I could have that pattern in my head and superimpose the ABC's over them and follow the pattern rapidly (I just tried) simply because that is how I was taught recently.  Were I to begin I would want to have both pitch and pattern come together under one name.  After all, that's what I was taught: to think of both - why not have one name?

I understand solmization as presented here as follows:
1. The principle has nothing to do with movable do or the intervals of the diatonic scale.
2.  The principle is that the human mind retains meaningful words such as the image of "door" and "mirror" more readily than abstract symbols.  Moreover, ABC is already reserved in a very abstract way as alphabet symbols for learning to write words.  Thus the "meaningful" door, ray, mirror, f(??), salt, ladder, tea are impregnated into the mind much more strongly than A, B, C would be.  That strong impression then combines with the pitch sounds one hears.  (I'm not certain about that since you practise saying them."

Might I surmise that memorizing "do re mi fa so" is just as abstract as A B C D E without the symbols?

3.  The weakness of A B C is in the pronunciation and how that affects pitch and singing.  All the solfege symbols end in a vowel. "efff" (F) doesn't so it's a forced staccato right there.

So that would be the reason for choosing those symbols.  Do I understand that correctly?

I can understand the reason for speaking the patterns in the circles.  Earlier this year I learned that I should be able to recite the alphabet names backward and tried practising it.  I did it as a spoken exercise, and this would be the same thing.

I also see the role of these patterns, being able to jump along them since that is what music does - you can orient quickly.

As a side note, I remember when my teacher introduced the dominant seventh as a broken chord.  He suddenly went off on a tangent and showed that these notes go along the scale in the same interval forever and ever and ever without ever changing pitch or interval.  The same is not true for a major chord which goes CEGCEGCEG etc. because there are two thirds followed by a fourth.  But the seventh chord follows the pattern of the circle going "do mi so ti re fa la do" .... which I'm doing in my head as I write.

So you are laying down a pattern which becomes incorporated in the young minds and later is the base for more theoretical things.  Is that correct?
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2008, 05:23:24 AM »

Keypeg wrote:
Quote
Ah, I see I was wrong.  However, you wrote this:

Quote
There are 7 modesand children memorize them pretty fast.

Did you mean, then, that there are 7 keys for the sharps, 7 keys for the flats, so 14, but since they have names starting with A B C D E F G which are do re mi fa sol la ti, there are in fact only 7?  For my own education, are these called modes?

I thought that mode meant the arrangement of intervals: for example the major diatonic scale, the Dorian, Phyrygian etc. each have a different place where semitones or tones are spaced, and these are called those particular modes regardless of what note (pitch) they start on.

I am pretty sure it was not me that said this. I dont teach kids modes. You are correct as to what modes are, but I was aware that Hellene may have used the term in a different sense. More like 7 singing tables. For Twinkle could have its tonic as any of the 7 solfa syllables.

I understand your experience with relative solfa being like a ladder which slides over the gamut of absolute pitches. I literally use this approch with my "Degree Card" on the keyboard and notation written with moveable solfa syllables in the noteheads. This strand is relatively new in my teaching, but is showing very promising results for gaining the experience of the various keys and their signatures or keyboard patterns. With this I can introduce any keysignature to a younger child, who gains the kind of sense of key that Hellene was alluding to, but over a shorter time frame I would expect.


* 00Five degrees.jpg (245.72 KB, 1654x2339 - viewed 176 times.)

* Noone But Me .jpg (203.59 KB, 992x1403 - viewed 174 times.)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2008, 05:45:34 AM »

Quote
As a side note, I remember when my teacher introduced the dominant seventh as a broken chord.  He suddenly went off on a tangent and showed that these notes go along the scale in the same interval forever and ever and ever without ever changing pitch or interval.  The same is not true for a major chord which goes CEGCEGCEG etc. because there are two thirds followed by a fourth.  But the seventh chord follows the pattern of the circle going "do mi so ti re fa la do" .... which I'm doing in my head as I write.

So you are laying down a pattern which becomes incorporated in the young minds and later is the base for more theoretical things.  Is that correct?

The dominant 7th is [soh te ray fah]. No more! It does not repeat with the same intervals. Maybe you were thinking of the diminished 7th made of all minor 3rds.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
dora96
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 208


« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2008, 05:54:50 AM »

Can someone tell me using sofeggio like Hellen's method?

How to transpose the song John posted (No one but me D major) into G major using the sofeggio.

No one but me in the Sofeggion will be

re re re , fa re la
re re re , fa ra mi
re re re, fa ra la
do re do sol fa mi re

When I read from the music note I know what it is? But if I don't have written music in  G key how do I work it out?

How do I immediately transpose the sofeggio in G major or even in A major ??

I am really confused. Do you know how to do John ??
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2008, 06:30:41 AM »


No one but me in the Sofeggion will be

re re re , fa re la
re re re , fa ra mi
re re re, fa ra la
do re do sol fa mi re

When I read from the music note I know what it is? But if I don't have written music in  G key how do I work it out?

How do I immediately transpose the sofeggio in G major or even in A major ??

The last line in "re major" would be "la ti la so fa mi re"

I recognize the melody as something I sang as a child called "Here we go loop di loo" and I did it orally in my head.

In G (sol) major it would be:

1 so so so ti so re
2 so so so to so la (repeat 1)
3 re mi re do ti la so.

How?  Intervals.  It's easier to see in C major (less foreign)

do do do mi do so
= The three do's are unisons.  Your next note goes up a major third.  You can hear that major third when you sing it.  Three notes up from do are "mi".
The next note goes back down a third to the starting note, so you have the "do".
The next note is up a fifth, so you have "so".  OR you can see the last note as being a third up from the "mi" that you sang/played before.

That is how I worked out the first line.  Except it came instantly and automatically to me while typing at the computer, nothing written in hand, just memory of the melody.

If you go to Hellene's circles (new to me) you will see that one of the circles goes in thirds, and one goes in fourths.   
To visit the one in thirds (I'm doing this in my head) the kids will have memorized:
do mi so ti re fa la .... after which it repeats .... and backward.

So you get to something like John's song which goes up and down in thirds and fifths (two thirds in succession), you draw mentally on these memorized thirds.

Supposing that your song has started on "re" and it goes up a third.  You have memorized "re fa la do... " etc. so you know your next note, which is a third up, is "fa".  If you have that already, then singing the music as solfege syllables is a breeze, as long as you can recognize basic intervals.

Actually I can see that those three circles hold everything.  The first circle has the interval of seconds.  The second circle has intervals of thirds, which naturally also include the 5th and the 7th.  You can't get at an interval of a fourth with the seonc circle, but you can with the third circle which contains fourths.  Voila, all possible intervals at the tip of your tongue.

I am curious now how it happened that I had solfege in that primary grade in the 1960's because it was not part of the curriculum.  Could it be that this particular teacher just happened to want to teach it?  What she did basically was to drill us in patterns of thirds, fourths, fifths going up and down by pointing at the syllables which we sang as she pointed.  That is why what has been presented makes instant sense to me.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2008, 06:35:04 AM »

Quote
The dominant 7th is [soh te ray fah]. No more! It does not repeat with the same intervals. Maybe you were thinking of the diminished 7th made of all minor 3rds.
You are right.  The explanation was definitely in regards to the dominant seventh, because that is what I learned to play, but I think the idea was a generic third: the fact that sevenths went up a third continually and ended up repeating the same note name.  But only a seventh chord made up completely of minor chords with have the exact intervals repeating.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2008, 10:01:45 AM »

Thanks Keypeg for helping Dora. I think Hellene would agree this is how they do it.

However, with my own system, I just move the degree card into G major (Doh =G) and sing the same original syllables. The degree card orients my visualisation of the keyboard into G major. The Yellow section (degrees 1 to 5) is often the hand placement or 5 finger position. This song goes up to lah, the 6th degree, and thus needs to change out of the 5 finger pos at the end.

By singing lots of songs in moveable doh, kids get very familiar with the sound of each degree of the scale, and the various intervals between them. They can hear a melody and sing what they think are the syllables. Then they could play it, with the Degree Card helping by showing the pattern of black and white keys for whatever key you want them to play it in.

They could also sight-sing from the solfa syllables, and later without the syllables. We later colour in the noteheads to hide the solfa letter for the filled-in note values. Once the keynote doh is located, they can reckon the degrees quickly by intervals from the keynote or in reference to the tonic triad.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2008, 11:44:35 AM »

That sounds interesting, John.  I have a feeling that you have illustrated some of these things in other posts since you are trying to get your system to be known.  Any links?  Are the kids able to do this in their heads eventually, the way I was able to last night?  I.e. woud they eventually be able to hear a melody in their heads, and at will sing that melody starting on any note and sing it correctly either using letter names, or fixed or movable do?

I have to say that while I am able to transpose music sound-wise thinking in movable do, once I learned transposition the conventional manner, which is to change the key signature and then tell myself that this melody is moving up three notes and then counting each note up three, this became the method I want to use.  It is mecahnical but avoids mistakes.  Then I can go back to audiation and check that it still sounds right as a way of double checking the transposition.  I wouldn't need a piano for that. (Prefered software: good quality pencil)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
johnk
PS Gold Member
Full Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2008, 12:24:32 PM »

I am not 100% sure, but I dont think I have posted anything of my moveable doh method/strand here on PianoStreet. The sheet music is fairly new, as i only designed the notehead font with the solfa letters inside quite recently. I have been using the 'degree card' for decades, but I think adding the notation that goes with it is going to make the system much stronger.

The kids see the symbol for soh in the notehead, they hear the sound of this 5th degree, and it sounds like every other soh they have ever heared, not in absolute pitch, but as the 5th of a key. They then see the keyboard orientation easily in whatever key the degree card has been placed. So there is a double advantage - not only the ear work, but learning to look at the keyboard in specific tonalities. I can "look at the piano" in the key of A or B or G or even in K or L! (This is because in terms of the keyboard, there is nothing to specify F# rather than Gb. ie I dont want to 'force' traditional notation terminology onto the keyboard.)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
keypeg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 536


« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2008, 02:23:19 PM »

It would be interesting to see such a degree card.  It sounds like you are working with movable do.