Ultimate Modernism-hater discussions + Vents

[mattgreenecomposer]

VVRROOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!! 

[wotgoplunk]

Incidently, my symphony for 3 boomerangs and a 1975 Ford Pontiac is nearing completion.

I question the use of a Pontiac, surely the 1982 Sierra would add more complexity to the work 

And do you reckon you could write in a part for a chest of drawers? I know a quintet that would be just perfect for your piece.

[thalbergmad]

Well, i was really aiming at the American market, hence the Pontiac.

Thal

[daro]

For purposes of this argument, I think 'modernism' should now be clearly defined as "anything that goes beyond the ideals of the 4th century BC:"

"... those who keep watch over our commonwealth must take the greatest care not to overlook the least infraction of the rule against any innovation upon the established system of education either of the body or of the mind. When the poet says that men care for 'the newest air that hovers on the singer's lips,' they will be afraid lest he be taken not merely to mean new songs, but to be commending a new style of music. Such innovation is not to be commended, nor should the poet be so understood. The introduction of novel fashions in music is a thing to beware of as endangering the whole fabric of society, whose most important conventions are unsettled by any revolution in that quarter." - Plato

yd

[ahinton]

Here it is folks!  My concerto for Riding Lawnmower with "weedwacker" accompaniment.  Watch out for the cadenza-IT'S A SCORCHER!!!!   

It could do with some cuts.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Ok...let's hear some recordings from you and I Heart Xenakis and Ahinton playing all these great modern pieces

Excuse me, but when did I ever claim to be a pianist (or a performer on any other instrument)?

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Excuse me, but when did I ever claim to be a pianist (or a performer on any other instrument)?

Best,

Alistair

I thought you were a pianist? I remember seeing somewhere on The Sorabji Archive that you have premiered some of your own pieces.

[ahinton]

I thought you were a pianist? I remember seeing somewhere on The Sorabji Archive that you have premiered some of your own pieces.

No, I'm not. I did once première the first movement of my second piano sonata, under the duress of having been let down by a real pianist who was to have done so. Big piece. Even bigger mistake. That was a long time ago...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

No, I'm not. I did once première the first movement of my second piano sonata, under the duress of having been let down by a real pianist who was to have done so. Big piece. Even bigger mistake. That was a long time ago...

Best,

Alistair

Sorry to hear that. Did the real pianist ever give it a fair performance after what happened at the premiere?

I've given up caring about the original argument, since 50% of this thread seems to have mutated into a bunch of unfunny jokers fellating one another with jokes that aren't really entertaining in any way. F**king trolls.

[ahinton]

Sorry to hear that.

Not as sorry as the composer was to hear the results of what he did on that occasion as he did it - especially since the event was attended by a bunch of pianists, all too many of whom decided to seat themsvles in the front row!

recordingrescue@googlemail.com
Did the real pianist ever give it a fair performance after what happened at the premiere?

No - nor did he attend it himself.

I've given up caring about the original argument

I hadn't even realised that there was one - well, not what I'd call an argument proper, anyway...

Best,

Alistair

[ole]

I wouldn't worry about your physical piano playing ability if you were to post recordings of yourselves playing modern pieces---nobody would know the difference anyway (between lots of mistakes and no mistakes). At the very least it would show enthusiasm for the music. There are a couple of people on this site who do seem to do that---and they aren't starting threads like this, so what gives? I don't understand.

[ahinton]

I wouldn't worry about your physical piano playing ability if you were to post recordings of yourselves playing modern pieces

Well, I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I've already made it quite clear that I am not a pianist and I would therefore no post any effort of mine to play anything; why, indeed, would I do such a thing?

---nobody would know the difference anyway (between lots of mistakes and no mistakes). At the very least it would show enthusiasm for the music. There are a couple of people on this site who do seem to do that---and they aren't starting threads like this, so what gives? I don't understand.

The last three words here seem to be the most important. It seems as though you do not even understand that people who are not pianists - even if they do happen to be composers (like myself) - do not and would not be expected to make recordings of themselves playing anything. You seem also to be either unable or unwilling to grasp the simple truth that having enthusiasm for any music is not the same thing as being able to demonstrate that enthusiasm by playing it.

Best,

Alistair

[cygnusdei]

I will concede that you may have a fraction of a point. If a composer decided to beat unwilling people to death and record their screams, then yes, they would have gone to far.
While the music is playable wholly by willing participants with instruments and electronics of some sort, then there are no boundaries.

Paedophilia is wrong for moral not artistic reasons. The same is definitely not true of any form of instrumental music. I hope you can see the difference.

Please don't liken the suffering of children who are abused, to the sensation you feel when you listen to music you hate. I can guarantee that they are not comparable.

Thank you for the fraction of a point. At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to point out that in the realm of pornography, morality does not suddenly become an issue with pedophilia, but more like the straw that breaks the camel's back.

If morality is the defining boundaries in music, as you argued, then the state of 'classical' music to date does not even begin to approach the limits. But as one goes farther and farther from the mainstream, expect smaller and smaller appreciative audience.

[ahinton]

At the risk of beating a dead horse

Some get their kicks from pornography and/or pædophilia, others from beating horses, it would seem...

I'd like to point out that in the realm of pornography, morality does not suddenly become an issue with pedophilia, but more like the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I see that your interests stretch to beating camels as well; if you do that with straw, does that make you the straw man?

If morality is the defining boundaries in music, as you argued, then the state of 'classical' music to date does not even begin to approach the limits. But as one goes farther and farther from the mainstream, expect smaller and smaller appreciative audience.

And who defines this "mainstream", how, when and for whom? - and, for that matter, who decides that it is a fixed concept? You surely know that what we loosely describe as "classical music" is in itself very much a minority interest and that all manner of areas within that admittedly unsatisfactory descriptor (not only contemporary music) are even more minority interests.

Those who have sought to associate contemporary music composition with pædophilia here should ask themselves whether, if their neighbour is a composer, they would accordingly report him/her to the police. Yes, a stupid remark, I admit, but then one can only try to match like with like...

I promise this forum that, when I return to the composition desk tomorrow morning, I will give no thought whatsoever to children (an undertaking that I imagine Stockhausen didn't give to anyone while working on Gesänge der Junglinge more than half a century ago, but then this forum didn't exist in those days...)

Best,

Alistair

[cygnusdei]

Alistair, are you starting a new fad with double bests? 

I knew I brought myself into precarious territory by bringing up pedophilia, but in order to make a point (or a fraction of a point) it was worth it. For lack of better example, when Jesus (yes that guy) spoke in parables, he used mundane, familiar settings to illustrate unfamiliar things of spiritual significance. The parables are only edifices to make the point across. When he spoke of the parable of the lost sheep, of course he was not likening humans to beasts!

And no one dare say I compared myself to Jesus ......

The concept of 'mainstream' itself may be a tautology. But it is certainly not fixed. Mainstream evolves with the audience and their taste.

[wotgoplunk]

I wouldn't worry about your physical piano playing ability if you were to post recordings of yourselves playing modern pieces---nobody would know the difference anyway (between lots of mistakes and no mistakes). At the very least it would show enthusiasm for the music. There are a couple of people on this site who do seem to do that---and they aren't starting threads like this, so what gives? I don't understand.

There is a difference between sound, and structured sound. What may first seem like someone simply bashing on a piano, soon gives way to structure, and the intricacies of the music itself.

You just have to listen. And even if mistakes aren't obvious, shame to a performer who leaves mistakes in intentionally.

[indutrial]

I wouldn't worry about your physical piano playing ability if you were to post recordings of yourselves playing modern pieces---nobody would know the difference anyway (between lots of mistakes and no mistakes). At the very least it would show enthusiasm for the music. There are a couple of people on this site who do seem to do that---and they aren't starting threads like this, so what gives? I don't understand.

I don't play piano, nor do I own one. I would certainly like to put one in my apartment sometime, but even then I probably wouldn't want to post recordings of myself playing. There are ways of appreciating music beyond the direct act of performing the pieces. I listen to the pieces on CDs and records, study scores, attend concerts, and am studying for an advanced degree in the field of music research.

I think that a lot of the actual performers here who are pursuing careers in performance might want to dislodge the sticks from their anuses and become a little more open to recent musical trends, because it might actually interest composers enough to write pieces for you to play down the road. Otherwise, a lot of you might just end up amongst thousands of people like you competing with the same repertoires and the same letdowns that 90% of those folks get used to over time.

[cygnusdei]

I admire your altruism.

[dnephi]

I admire your altruism.

That's what she said.

[webern78]

Your definition of art as something that needs to follow any sort of guidelines is the worst kind of high school humanities class dookie I've ever heard.

I didn't coin the definition, the Greeks did, and it served our civilization admirably ever since, or at least, until very recently. If you want to dismiss this conception then you'll have to dismiss everything that happened in art since classical times, but i supposed that, true to your own credo, you probably do.

especially since "aesthetic principles" can stem out of any individual's mindset and can maintain any level of contour as regards nature, civilization, rationality, or irrationality.

Nonsense. All aesthetic principles exist in nature as a fixed entity outside of individual perception. The artist is merely the vessel through which those principles are first discovered, and his ability as an artist is proportional to the clarity and simplicity of his mean for expressing those principles.

The idea that precepts are necessary to art pretty much extinguishes the possibilities of art and only allows it to function as a subserviant b|tch to a bunch of bull$hit ideals and morals touted by people with big egos and small imaginations.

History seems to prove you wrong here.

If artistic discovery and innovation is pretty much over for you

To the contrary, it is precisely because i long for further discovery and innovation (real discovery, and real innovation) that i lament the reigning clusterf*ck of extreme relativism in vogue today.

I also find it very amusing that you blame me of pushing a dogmatic view of art when every third rate hack out there is making a career by perpetuating arbitrary bullsh*t ideals or morals they based off whatever semantic gimmick they could attach a name to it. Expressionism, serialism, minimalism, spectralism, post-modernism, clavicembalisticism ad infinitum. Woe is me for even daring to champion a universal ideal for art in the midst of this self indulgent mess. 

[ahinton]

clavicembalisticism

Well, much as I deprecate "-isms" in principle, I do rather like that one - at least for the second or so that it took me to read it - for I'm sure that Sorabji himself (no school founder, for sure) would have been amused at it for about as long as it amused me before moving on as I too have done swiftly...

All aesthetic principles exist in nature as a fixed entity outside of individual perception. The artist is merely the vessel through which those principles are first discovered, and his ability as an artist is proportional to the clarity and simplicity of his mean for expressing those principles.

The latter part of this is just the kind of thing that Schönberg claimed. As for expressing oneself with simplicity and clarity, this is rubbish; clarity, yes, of course - that's vital at all times - but simplicity has its place just as complexity does and the expression must above all be genuine and appropriate at all times, its simplicity or complexity being simply an incidental servant of each and every context.

Oh, how incredibly tiresome all of this is...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I also find it very amusing that you blame me of pushing a dogmatic view of art when every third rate hack out there is making a career by perpetuating arbitrary bullsh*t ideals or morals they based off whatever semantic gimmick they could attach a name to it. Expressionism, serialism, minimalism, spectralism, post-modernism, clavicembalisticism ad infinitum. Woe is me for even daring to champion a universal ideal for art in the midst of this self indulgent mess. 

You're the one targetting -isms in a negative and non-constructive way. Since every work of art seems to be required to walk on eggshells past your sensitive universalism, I think I'll do myself a favor and stop fueling your incurable gag reflex towards music that, frankly, I don't think you deserve to enjoy. D.H. Lawrence made an appropriate quote that went something along the lines of "not art for art's sake, but art for my sake!" Unless you're some kind of diehard religious throwback or a communist, it should be fairly obvious that everything that means anything in music has something to do with individuals coming up with their own ideas. If everything conformed to some universal mores and norms for artistic output than what about anything would be worth talking about. In the 20th century, more than ever before, this trend became apparant and composers no longer needed to fear excommunication, exile, or violent social backlash (although it was and is still happening here and there) for attempting to push their own self-proclaimed agendas. Besides, depending on the establishment had really begun to lose it's lustre after the world started destroying itself and losing it's solid foundations. When none of that is dependable, aspects of the self and the frontiers of the human brain are the most reliable source of inspiration. Balls to society's universal ideals. Most of those don't even bear a shred of existence anymore.

But of course, some people feel like the clock needs to be forced back and that individualism is threatening...so they attempt to rebuild the temple out of rubble. It's people with your bulls**t attitudes of universalism and idealism who ended up hocking garbage like socialist realism in the Eastern Bloc and who still seem to make it impossible to hear anything post-1920 at concert halls outside of major European cities. You target these "isms" as if the supporters of these trends are destroying everything about some nonsensical musical establishment that you feel you're a part of. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most of the "isms" you're calling on don't really last very long as movements (sometimes they never even meet one another) and its usually a term coined by an *** music critic, a needling historian, or an overexcited composer who wants to feel like he/she's part of something. It would be relieving to stop hearing terms like post-modernism and expressionism thrown around with the same bull-in-a-chinashop fashion that politicians throw around words like terrorism and communism.

You really need to learn that finger-pointing and trash-talking doesn't somehow dignify you as being of a higher musical calling than people who are just trying to be creative in their own ways and offending your draconian standards. Sure, some folks during the twentieth century and still to this day throw a lot of muck around and show blatant disregard for tradition, but that is laughably far outside the norm. Lots more people spit poison and rot about the importance of tradition and the dangers of newer trends (however dangerous they aren't!!).

It might feel like the winning side, but that's probably just because this forum is filled with exactly what the OP pointed out:

vitriolic, anti-intellectual, Nazi, substandard-IQ [with] feces spewing out of the mouths

I hope music never satisfies you and brings fruition to your fruitless crusade.

[cygnusdei]

Indutrial, if this forum is filled with (note that the OP said 'threads polluted with') vitriolic, anti-intellectual, Nazi, substandard-IQ [with] feces spewing out of the mouths, what's keeping you? Unless you actually find satisfaction in engaging with such people?

[pies]

Indutrial, if this forum is filled with (note that the OP said 'threads polluted with') vitriolic, anti-intellectual, Nazi, substandard-IQ [with] feces spewing out of the mouths, what's keeping you? Unless you actually find satisfaction in engaging with such people?

This entire forum was set up as an expirement to test his theory.  So far, no data that conflicts with theory!

[indutrial]

Indutrial, if this forum is filled with (note that the OP said 'threads polluted with') vitriolic, anti-intellectual, Nazi, substandard-IQ [with] feces spewing out of the mouths, what's keeping you? Unless you actually find satisfaction in engaging with such people?

I'm experimenting in my own way to see if it's possible to dredge sense out of some of these people. It's way more in the vein of curiosity than some kind of satisfaction (which would have to be a sadomasichistic desire). Before anyone starts thinking I'm really hellbent on fighting these clowns, let me simply say that I type way more angrily than I actually feel and that this thread is more amusing than frustrating.

[pies]

I think these people that aren't too open to new music are like little Khrushchevs.  Anything they don't like or understand is degenerate art and should be suppressed.  Old music/conventional-sounding music is socialist realism in this really bad analogy.


Howard Skempton is an interesting composer.

[indutrial]

I think these people that aren't too open to new music are like little Khrushchevs.  Anything they don't like or understand is degenerate art and should be suppressed.  Old music/conventional-sounding music is socialist realism in this really bad analogy.


Howard Skempton is an interesting composer.

Someone like Khrushchev himself has much more of a viable excuse to be the way he was, because he became who he was under the Stalin regime and behaved according to Party indoctrination. The boorish people on this forum have little excuse since nothing about their taste is forced upon them. That they feel the need to come up with such stilted standards speaks worse of them then could be said of the behaviors of those born and raised in a totalitarian society. There's always a difference between not knowing any better and knowing better but being willfully ignorant.

[tehpro]

If the piece is over 1 hour long it automatically sucks because it's utterly stupid to create such long pieces. It also deteriorates your hearing if you are forced to hear that much noise in one sitting.

[viking]

This guy is just looking for someone to waste their time creating a long well-structured intelligent reply.  I suggest that nobody take that kind of time - it's not worth it. 

[ahinton]

If the piece is over 1 hour long it automatically sucks because it's utterly stupid to create such long pieces. It also deteriorates your hearing if you are forced to hear that much noise in one sitting.

You certainly do relish digging yourself in ever deeper, don't you?! Your second statement is so risible and absurd as to warrant no comment. With your first, whilst you do not even specify what's allegedly so significant about one hours as a cut-off point, you make up for that and more by having the arrogant temerity (not to mention unabashed stupidity) to dismiss - among other things that apparently "suck" - Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH, most of Bruckner's and Mahler's symphonies, Schmidt's Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln, Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, a couple of dozen works by Sorabji, Finnissy's A History of Photography in Sound, Busoni's Piano Concerto, my own Sequentia Claviensis and String Quintet and thousands of other works including many hundreds of operas by more composers than I can think of. Such an assertion does not even have the virtue of being on-topic, let alone on-message but, if it is nonetheless genuinely representative of your musical attitudes, your membership of this forum is surely unnecessary.

One might submit that it "deteriorates" the reader's eyesight if he/she is "forced" to read that much of your rubbish in one sitting...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This guy is just looking for someone to waste their time creating a long well-structured intelligent reply.  I suggest that nobody take that kind of time - it's not worth it.

Sorry - too late! I didn't see your message here until I'd already posted mine. What "this guy" is "looking for" ought to be a psychiatrist...

Best,

Alistair

[yuc4h]

Despite my huge prejudices against Sorabji and modern music in general, I took the time to listen some of his piano variations

http://www.emusic.com/album/Kaikhosru-Sorabji-SORABJI-Piano-transcriptions-of-Ravel-Bach-Ch-MP3-Download/10888293.html

I honestly don't see why people make such a big deal about Sorabji being stupid and random music. Due to all the negative things I have heard about Sorabji (in this forum), I expected to hear some some horrible noise and I was greatly surprised that I thoroughly enjoyed all of the pieces. Maybe this is not the kind of "modern music" that people talk about at all and I'm just being stupid since I don't know anything about modern music anyway