Funerailles octaves - can't keep my wrist loose

[fiasco]

I'm having trouble with the LH octaves in funerailles, and that trouble is that 1) my wrist is in a lot of pain and 2) my 5th finger keeps falling off the keys.  I know I'm supposed to keep my wrist loose, but I just can't figure out how I'm expected to keep a loose wrist while playing loud fast octaves, seems like i can only play it decently if I keep everything tight and locked - I know this goes against everything I've read here, but I just don't...  When I spread my hand open, with thumb and pinky at an octave position, my wrist just gets automatically tight.  I can feel my left wrist with my right hand - if my fingers are spread out, my wrist is tight, and that's that.  When I loosen it, it just follows that my fingers come in... My hands are small, I can reach a ninth, and I can only play this section with my hand flat when trying to keep my wrist loose.  If I arch my hand over the keys, there seems to be no way possible I can keep a loose wrist.  Am I better off trying to play through the pain (and I know pain is a bad sign, but maybe it'll stop hurting eventually?) with a flat hand, or what?  I know nobody can show me how to keep my wrist loose over a computer screen, but anything would be helpful.  I've read most of the octave posts here, but is there anything specific to this piece?

[jinfiesto]

God, if it hurts don't power through it, stop. Sometimes, things just need time to cook in your head, so if you just back off for a while, sometimes you'll really see gains in the ease with which you play it.

For the specific technique, I can make a video for you if you like. There are many ways to do octaves, but an interesting method that gave me good results, was "grabbing" the octaves, kind of pinching the octave. It forces your hand to contract and relax between each octave. So you can practice pinching each octave slowly, and then speeding it up.

[faulty_damper]

I'm having trouble with the LH octaves in funerailles, and that trouble is that 1) my wrist is in a lot of pain and 2) my 5th finger keeps falling off the keys.  I know I'm supposed to keep my wrist loose, but I just can't figure out how I'm expected to keep a loose wrist while playing loud fast octaves, seems like i can only play it decently if I keep everything tight and locked - I know this goes against everything I've read here, but I just don't...  When I spread my hand open, with thumb and pinky at an octave position, my wrist just gets automatically tight.  I can feel my left wrist with my right hand - if my fingers are spread out, my wrist is tight, and that's that.  When I loosen it, it just follows that my fingers come in... My hands are small, I can reach a ninth, and I can only play this section with my hand flat when trying to keep my wrist loose.  If I arch my hand over the keys, there seems to be no way possible I can keep a loose wrist.  Am I better off trying to play through the pain (and I know pain is a bad sign, but maybe it'll stop hurting eventually?) with a flat hand, or what?  I know nobody can show me how to keep my wrist loose over a computer screen, but anything would be helpful.  I've read most of the octave posts here, but is there anything specific to this piece?

Do you know the comic, The Far Side, by Gary Larson?  There was this one about a gifted student who tried to push open the door that had a sign that read "Pull to open"?

Do you know the story about the sightseer who was looking for a famous museum in France but had to walk into the Louvre to ask someone how to make sense of the map?

[term]

I'm having trouble with the LH octaves in funerailles, and that trouble is that 1) my wrist is in a lot of pain and 2) my 5th finger keeps falling off the keys.  I know I'm supposed to keep my wrist loose, but I just can't figure out how I'm expected to keep a loose wrist while playing loud fast octaves, seems like i can only play it decently if I keep everything tight and locked - I know this goes against everything I've read here, but I just don't... 

You have two possibilites: Try to relax. Or tense, but the right parts. Tension when performing tasks you can't do yet is not bad, if the tension affects the right muscles, i.e. those you need to build up in order to keep up with the muscles of that part of the hand/arm, which is not tense. (I must say however that i dislike an anatomic approach to technique, but if understanding that helps you, then fine.^^)
These are your options. A mix of both is best. That means, tension while practising is inevitable and quite useful, if you dont exaggerate. Seems to me that what you need to do right now is to relax, and that could be done in a way that you try to play those octaves without any strength. In such a situation, I use to always just touch the keys without actually pressing them down. That requires making sure that you definitely feel every key and know exactly which keys you're touching at any given moment. It has the advantage that your not increasing tension while at the same time your hand will automatically align in the right position. You will also most probably also feel the blood going into your fingertips, which is a good sign. I assume that while doing that, your 5th finger will hit the key much harder than the thumb or any other finger (like when doing 4-1 octaves), if so that is the finger which is causing problems, together with the whole left side of the left hand and arm.
Thats all i can say about that.

[bob3.1415926]

I'm probably not in a position to give advice here, this piece is still a bit too much for me, but...
I guess these are obvious points, but

The movement should (mostly not entirely) come from the wrist, so you have an arm with a hand bouncing up and down on the end of it, rather than a straight arm/hand bouncing up and down from the elbow.

Practice slower. There will be a speed at which you can play them loud and relaxed. At the moment it may be irritatingly slow. Bear with it, you will speed up, probably very slowly at first, and then it'll suddenly accelerate.

You probably know all this already though.

[guendola]

Have you ever played volleyball? The movement when pushing the ball is very similar to  stress free playing of octaves. The biggest problem is that you have to practise that slowly at first because it involves relaxing the wrist after each octave, later on you can play up to four octaves with one impulse by bouncing, but start with just one.

The wrist is your shock absorber, down-movement comes from the arm. Once the keys are in the lowest position, you jump by bending your wrist down.

[thierry13]

NEVER USE YOUR WRISTS  Using wrist movement leads to injury. Wrists should be supple but firm (never moving too much). Octaves come from the elbow. Nuff said.

[viking]

NEVER USE YOUR WRISTS
(had to ditto the previous comment)

The problem with playing from your wrists is that you will have an inferior quiet and unclear sound, and put yourself at risk to injury.  If you use your whole arm, starting from the shoulder blades through the elbows with a supple firm wrist, the octaves may be slower at the beginning, but they will have a greater sound, and you will use less energy to produce that sound.  Then, over time, you will assimilate a quicker octave technique while avoiding the risk of injury.  An internet forum is one of the last places one should go to get technical advice.  Best bet would be to find a teacher who can physically put you in the right position and give you immediate feedback on your progress.
Best of luck,


Sam

[thalberg]

Semour Fink's book has great octave advice.

[faulty_damper]

Semour Fink's book has great octave advice.

I disagree.  His method of playing octaves is useless because it's impossible to actually do at a fast tempo.  But his direction does sound convincing when it's written down.

[faulty_damper]

These octaves should be easy to perform at the desired tempo.  It should not be a struggle even during practice.  Anyone who says you have to endure any kind of pain should probably shut up but you are the one who has a choice to follow that advice to your own peril or to try something else.

I'm telling you that these octaves are easy to do IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO THEM RIGHT!  They are easy.  The primary reason many people believe that octaves are hard is because the motions that are required are very difficult to coordinate.  Some, like Fink, have attempted to apply the simple concept of the fulcrum and assumed it is the same as the arm.  It is not.  No amount of gravity dropping will help you with the octave passages in Funerailles.

These octaves are easy if you do them right.  Currently, you are not.  If you feel pain, try something else that doesn't result in pain.  It should be easy and effortless.  When you figure out how to coordinate your body you'll notice two things: 1. It's easy and effortless and 2. You can control it, i.e. you can make music.

[michael_langlois]

Semour Fink's book has great octave advice.

I've not read the book - is it possible for you to summarize here his advice?