The Chopin Etudes - a fingering dilemma

[88keys]

I would like to hear your opinion on the following issue:

To what extent must one follow the fingering given in the Chopin Etudes, in order to get the right technique? Does anybody know if the fingerings given were indeed given by Chopin himself?

For example, in Op. 10/9, I find it much easier to execute the left hand arpeggio on the first few measures with 5-3-1-3-1-3 instead of the 5-4-1-4-1-4 given.  

I know that 5-3-1 needlessly strains the wrist and fingers of the AVERAGE hand. But my hands are larger than average, and my fingers are longer, which makes this alternative much more comfortable to me.

Or so it seems. I can't help worrying that "taking the law into my own fingers" (so to speak) might damage my techinque or even my health, in the long run.

What do you think? Just how critical is the exact fingering to mastering the etudes?

P.S. The above is only an example for one etude. But there are several others in which I find alternative fingerings more comfortable to my hands. Any comments or examples from the other etudes would be most appreciated.

[selsa]

88 Keys,

You are right.  I have the same problem. I am learning that same piece also, and the first four 3-quarter beats of the right hand are suggested to be played 1-3-2-3. I don't know why that was suggested rather than the easier 1-2-1-2.

BTW, it seems like suggested fingering varies from one publisher to another.

If you have already learned the piece, can you tell me the steps you took and how long it took you for each step? (learning/studying the tab, initial attempt to play, repetitions required to memorize the piece, etc.)

Cheers,
-Selsa.

[selsa]

Sorry, my preferrred fingering for the above notes is 1-2-2-3, not 1-2-1-2 (which I was told in this forum is awkward, I agree.)

-Selsa

[88keys]

What 3-quarter beats?

Are you refering to the four eighth notes beginning the piece (rests not included)?

Assuming we are talking about the same thing, the
fingering for the right hand is not particularly important. The right hand only provides the melody, while the left hand gets the real challange in this etude: Using your wrist to achieve a good legato over wide intervals.

So in this specific etude, any reasonable fingering for the right hand will probably do just fine.

It is only the left hand I'm worried about.

[88keys]

Sorry my post was cut short.

Here is the rest of it:

It is only the left hand I'm worried about here. I just can't help feeling that if Chopin wrote 5-4-1 (assuming the fingering really is by Chopin) than he must have known what he was doing...

BTW, I have not "already learned the piece" yet.  I am still in the process ofl learning it, and there is a fairly tricky part which still gives me trouble (m.25 to 28). I found it a good habit to decide on the exact fingering in the early stages of practicing a piece.

[davy10tunes]

I have just had a quick go of this piece.My edition also gives the 5-4-1 fingering which, to me seems unnecessarily awkward.For me it is impossible to play the first two notes(f - c) "legatissimo" with the 5-4 fingering without changing my hand position, which you don't need to do if you use 5-3-1.Always use the fingering which suits you best, afterall, when you perform this piece the audience wont care what fingering you use, so use the easiest and safest possible as this will give the best end result.Hope this helps.
                 David
             

[ned]

Relax everybody!
I have played op 10 no 9 for more than forty years. I believe that the 5414 fingering is Chopin's but he was 5 foot 7.  I am 6 foot 7.  I have always used the third finger of the left hand in that passage. The only issue is keeping the third finger from dominating the figure or becoming a stationary pivot. Keep the left hand fingers active and supple. Don't let the wrist try do all the work, or it will get sloppy. I have read that the reason for using 4 instead of 3 is to avoid rigidity and to keep that particular note from sticking out.
The figure gets really challenging on page two.
You should also work on Prelude op 28 no 24. Similar figure.

Selsa,
I checked a number of editions of the Chopin Etudes. For the opening of the right hand they all prescribe 2-3 2-3, which upon reflection is the way to go. It ensures the two-note slur, which is what is written. And it is more "professional" than the alternatives.

Op 10 no 9 is a wonderful piece.
So get back to work!
Ned

[selsa]

My appologies. You're right, 88 keys. The four main notes at the beginning are (dotted) eighths. So we are talking about the same piece.

My version has a 1-3-2-3 and is found on http://sheetmusiconline.net/Domain_Music/Chopin/

Like you said, many versions may have 2-3-2-3, and that works too.

Sorry, I can't give you any better ideas than you already have about the left hand, except to say that I find it challenging. It seems a lot easier when you listen to it. Good luck. It may be a while before I can play it decently.

-Selsa.

[88keys]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

Looks like there is nothing wrong with using 5-3-1, at least as long as the skips aren't too big.

Ned, you said you've used the 531 fingering for the passage in question. Do you switch to 541 when the skips get larger? This sounds to me like the right way to go.

[ned]

88,
Right.  Depending on the shape of the figure, I recall that I use 4 as well as 2 in places, and the RH helps out in the huge interval just before the recapitulation.  I am in the office so I am not too clear on the details.

There is a tough similar spot just before the Coda of the Chopin Ballade in A flat.  He must have had an incredibly malleable LH.

Ned

[steinway23]

i believe fingering is a relative and debatable issue....
the fingering indicated in the music are ultimately suppose to be a recommendation or guide for us... the end result of a good fingering should be one that fits the performer's physique COMFORTABLY and also to take away unnecessary strains on the hand....

On the other hand, fingerings are also a revelation and insight to how the pieces should be played and also the right tone projected. It may seemed awkward at the start but you will leanr to appreciate the revelations and precious insights or the editors.....
a good example will be claudio arrau's edition of the beethoven piano sonatas- it contains some of the weirdest fingerings but when you get used to them, you realise that they are there for A PURPOSE- to bring out the right tone with a secure and right fingering or even phrasing.... it also helps to spread out the load amongst ur fingers so that you won't feel the strain....

[tosca1]

I completely agree with Steinway 23 that fingering is relative to the size and shape of the hands and fingers although we must also be aware that some fingerings may appear eccentric yet they have a  musical purpose as for example in the voicing of a chord.
I have the Alfred Cortot edition of the Chopin Studies. Cortot was a legendary exponent of Chopin and he produced extensive "Editions de Travail" not only for most of Chopin's music but for most of the romantic school as well. Fortunately these are available in translation and for the op 10 and op 25 studies,  Cortot offers much advice and alternatives with fingerings.  Indeed  these editions of the studies are very pedagogical and he gives excellent suggestions and exercises for tackling the formidable technical demands in these beautiful pieces.

[cziffra]

the Wiener-Urtext edition of the chopin etudes by Paul Badura Skoda gives Chopin's own fingering in Italics, wherever he left them, as well as editorial suggestions.  try those editions, they are expensive but fantastically useful.

[tosca1]

Thank you vindin.  Paul Badura-Skoda is a beautiful pianist and I am sure that his fingerings and editorial comment would be invaluable.  I agree with 88keys and other opinions on this topic about  modifying fingerings to suit the individual hand.
What about trying 5-3-1-4-1-3 for the opening figure of Chopin's op 10 no.9? Changing the finger on the repeated c makes good sense.
There is a fiendish, repeated short LH  passage in Beethoven's op 90 E minor sonata first movement in a similar shape to the Chopin figure but in my opinion more difficult.
Robert.