Counting Polyrhythms/ Fantasie Impromptu

[aboocher]

Hello all,

I have been working on the fantasie impromptu for a about 3 weeks now.  We've sorted out all my technique problems  (see my thread on finger weights) and are now working on putting both hands together.  Easier said than done!  My teacher showed me by singing the different parts, but it still seems so hard to tell if i'm doing it right.  I mean to count it, you'd have to count to 12.  I've tried slowing down recordings of it, to hear the differences.  (I used a sheet music making program)  But I still can't get it perfect.  Certainly you have helped students with this piece before.  Do you have any advice?

Thanks

Adam

[janice]

Practice hands seperately!!!!! Plus do it with a metronome!  Do not even attempt to put hands together until you can do hands seperately in your sleep!!  This is how I tackled this piece.  After I drilled hands seperately, I moved to hands together.  But I had the left hand on "automatic pilot", so that I could do the 16th notes and keep in tempo.  Trust me, once you get the hands going together, you will never forget how it works (kind of like riding a bike).  Be very patient with yourself!

[pianobabe56]

Good heavens. Been there, done that. ^_~ It took me a couple of months of working with metronome, and focusing on the left hand- fit the right hand sixteenths in AROUND the left hand, keeping that constant, making sure that all of the downbeats match up. Eventually, it all clicks into place.

[jlh]

This must be, like, the most popular piece on this forum...

[pianobabe56]

Yes, but you really can't blame anyone for that.. it's one of "those" pieces, and you try to have patience with all the questions about it.

[Derek]

I learned the Fantasie with hands together, though ocassionally I'd play the right hand or left hand alone.  It was sloppy for the first few times but eventually squished itself into alignment. Just keep at it! 

[saloufinette]

IMHO, speed is a major and sneaky trap when trying to focus on polyrhythms. I mean, the faster the execution, the easier the fragment flows under your fingers, because the two hands find it easier to coincide at the accented spots. Say, in a 3-4 polyrhythm, it is practically impossible for me to play it slowly, even using a metronome. But when speed is augmented, it all fits into place. So, I (used to[, because I do not practice any more, but will soon start over]) learn HS progressively up to the target speed, and then executed HT straight away at final speed. (My teacher never noticed I could NOT play HS correctly at lower speed). Anyway, now I feel that I just cannot do it... It is horrible, trying to concentrate on polyrhytms... Last time I tried, I burst into tears (and then by-passed the difficult part by playing as fast as possible)

Ailira M

[ted]

Many people find the following trick useful.

The correct rhythm is

R.H. 1--1--1--1--
L.H. 1---1---1---

An incorrect but close and easy rhythm is

R.H. 1-1-1-1-
L.H. 1--1-1--

Play it in this latter way and allow it to slip toward the correct way.

It works well for some people.

[johnkeller]

The rhythm for each beat, shown by Ted:

1--1--1--1--,2...
1---1---1---,2...

can be counted "One, before and after, Two, before and after," etc, with the accents being for the LH triplets and the "be", "and" & "ter" showing that the RH comes before, in the middle of, and after these LH notes.

Think of the "before" as a crushed note in the RH before the main note in the LH and "after" as the reverse. It works because the words "before" and "after" not only describe the placing of the RH notes relative to the main triplet rhythm, but also give the correct rhythmic sound.

Do this for slow 4 against 3. Make sure the beginnings of each beat coincide.
For fast playing, just concentrate on the beats coinciding.

For 3 against 4, (LH 4 being the main rhythm), you can count "One, after, and, before; ...".

For 3 against 2, say "One, the middle; two the middle; ..."

For 2 against 3, say "One, in between; two in between; ..."

Hope this idea helps. Cheers from down under, John