Rachmaninov cant play his own pieces!!!

[6ft 4]

Are the recordings of Rachmaninov fake?

I just heard some samples on amazon and they are all very odd:

for example, op.3 no.2 he cant even play the chords properly...his hands dont go down together!!

and the op.23 no.5 g minor prelude is REALLY slow...much slower than the metronome mark he HIMSELF put there!!!

Very frustrating for me because i wanted to listen to how he plays the g minor prelude since im playing it in a concert soon; i was very happy to have found a recording of him only to find its quite frankly awful for someone of his prestige.

[musicsdarkangel]

You have very unique ears








get his 3rd concerto.

[Barbosa-piano]

 What? I think his own recordings are the best! If you go to classic.manual.ru/real/Rachmaninov-performer/AMPICO_Rach_Prel_Rach_23-05.rm (newer one) or (older one) classic.manual.ru/real/Rachmaninov-performer/Rach_Prel_Rach_23-05.rm you find not only samples, but the entire recordings from different ages. I played the G minor Prelude Alla marcia for a competition... It is interesting to hear that his older recording of the piece sounds faster than the newer one, the first one sounds like Gillel's performance. I love the newer one, I think it is the best performance of the piece ever.  I really like the G minor Prelude, I play it all the time...
The recordings at the site I gave you sound a lot better than the sample at amazon, though they are the same ones.
Enjoy practice! 

                                                            Sincerely,
                                                            Mario Barbosa.

[6ft 4]

Could u give me some advice then on the g minor prelude?:

How fast do u play it? Do u play it at 108 as instructed?

Do u use the pedal for the staccato notes?

Do u use the pedal for the octave scales in the 2nd section?

[Goldberg]

This might sound a little strange, but I actually don't care much for his recording of the third concerto; on the other hand, I think he's pretty much the best for the other three + the rhapsody (and especially the first concerto; Michelangeli and Ashkenazy both do wonders with the 4th, too, but Rach's is right up there I think). I haven't heard very many other recs, but I do prefer Horowitz for the 3rd concerto. Rach, unless I have a different recording, takes all the edits and makes the piece very disorganised and takes some parts a little too fast (on the other hand, Ashkenazy proves that it can also go far too slowly; I prefer Rach's here). In my opinion, it is a very disappointing performance. But I'm also no big fan of that concerto in particular.

But I do agree that in general, his recordings are the best--at least he plays it correctly!

[rob47]

Are the recordings of Rachmaninov fake?

I just heard some samples on amazon and they are all very odd:

for example, op.3 no.2 he cant even play the chords properly...his hands dont go down together!!

and the op.23 no.5 g minor prelude is REALLY slow...much slower than the metronome mark he HIMSELF put there!!!

Very frustrating for me because i wanted to listen to how he plays the g minor prelude since im playing it in a concert soon; i was very happy to have found a recording of him only to find its quite frankly awful for someone of his prestige.

It is how he plays.  Perhaps it is all the other performers who have it twisted?

[Daevren]

I think Rach is kind of famous for playing his works 'incorrectly' and not following the score.

[Brian Healey]

How can anyone playing his own pieces technically be "wrong?"

Perhaps he doesn't play them exactly as they are written, but written music is only a reference anyway.


Peace,
Brian

[aerlinndan]

How can anyone playing his own pieces technically be "wrong?"

Perhaps he doesn't play them exactly as they are written, but written music is only a reference anyway.

I must disagree with you here. Being a student of composition myself, I can tell you that the way I perform my pieces and the way I want others to perform them (if I am ever so lucky) are two different things. Now, I know I'm no Rachmaninoff, but come on, the guy was intelligent enough that if he wanted people to play his scores a different way, he would have changed his scores! I think justice should be done to the composer and we should trust Rachmaninoff that the music that he published is indeed the way he wants others to play it - regardless of how he chooses to play it.

[MattL]

I tend to disagree with you.

I believe that if you compose a piece and take the time to commit it to paper, you have created a blueprint for others (and yourselve) not the final result. To me when you think out a piece I think that since you are its creator you can do whatever you want with it, I mean it is YOURS.

Matt LaCoste

[Barbosa-piano]

Could u give me some advice then on the g minor prelude?:

How fast do u play it? Do u play it at 108 as instructed?

Do u use the pedal for the staccato notes?

Do u use the pedal for the octave scales in the 2nd section?

I usually play it at the given tempo, but some days I like to moderate it... It can be painful if you are not ready. Most pianists of today play this music slightly slower or at the speed. Gillels played it faster, as in Rachmaninoff's first recording. I try to use the other recordings as a reference, since Rachmaninoff himself played the two recordings at different speed.

I try to keep the beat up on the first section, gradually increasing the sound to the end, as it is repeated. At the second section, I try to make the tempo a bit faster.

For the staccato notes on the second section, I lift the pedal up and down faster, so I don't overuse the pedal and keep it at its marcial characteristic. The only one I play staccatto is the chord just before the octaves. I use full pedal on the octaves, and when I come to measure 21, I play the staccatto notes as indicated and use pedal on the octaves. On measure 23 I pedal the quick octaves that follow. I use the staccatto properly on measure 31, and on. When the second section repeats, I play it faster, louder, with more pedal. Although they are marked exactly the same, I think it is a matter of musical taste to variate it. ( I like to bring the second section back stronger)
 The pianist Valentina Igoshina does the total opposite... She play the big chords with pedal, and the octaves she play staccatto... I thought it was odd, but it sounds good anyway... Again a matter of musical taste, which you will probably modify after memorizing the piece.

Other of my advises are: Throughout the Prelude, you should practice slower, and emphasize the chords of BOTH hands... When I first practiced the Prelude, I was playing the three fast right hand chords right, but on the left, I was missing  some chords because of the speed, and because I had to get my left hand used to play the repetition... That is why I recommend the study of this with separate hands. This Prelude can be exausting for the left hand, especially at the Un poco meno mosso section, and a good study of it requires time.

For me, was very easy to replace the composer's own marks after I had it memorized. So I suggest you to analyse the partition very well at all times. Practice all bars individually, to eliminate all problems. Perhaps the greatest problem for me was the octaves passage at the second section. I suggest the study of those lifting the hand high everytime you play an octave, and at lower speeds, different rythms, etc.
Always study carefully so you don't hurt the right hand, as I did.
I hope this was helpful, this is one of my favorite pieces, if not the favorite...

Enjoy practice 

                                                         Sincerely,
                                                        Mario Barbosa

[quasimodo]

Don't forget Rachmaninov used to struggle with tendonits...

[6ft 4]

Thanks Barbosa!

I can just about play it at 108, but it is extraordinarily difficult to:

- keep the volume down when playing the quick chords
- playing octaves at speed is almost impossible!
- emphasise the melody/the soprano line
- bring out the inner tune during the more lyrical middle section

I find if it is played slowly the pedal is absolutely imperative, but at quicker speeds minimal pedal also sounds good.

The problem is to me both methods of playing it sound just as good: i literally cannot decide and so will most likely compromise and change it around for the repeats as you seem to do.

This is also one of my favourite pieces, although the op.23 no.2 is also a favourite of mine. It's also near on impossible to play.....

[Goldberg]

Don't forget Rachmaninov used to struggle with tendonits...

It's not that I don't believe you, quasimodo, but can someone else (or a few people) confirm this as well? If so, it'd really be interesting....because he also used to play Hanon religiously, right? That might explain the tendonitis.

But I have no clue!

[BoliverAllmon]

It's not that I don't believe you, quasimodo, but can someone else (or a few people) confirm this as well? If so, it'd really be interesting....because he also used to play Hanon religiously, right? That might explain the tendonitis.

But I have no clue!

then the question becomes would the Hanon be the culprit? or the large cold hands? tendonitis can creep its ugly head when you don't warm-up properly.

this is the first time that I have heard of him playing with tendonitis.

boliver

[Barbosa-piano]

Thanks Barbosa!

I can just about play it at 108, but it is extraordinarily difficult to:

- keep the volume down when playing the quick chords
- playing octaves at speed is almost impossible!
- emphasise the melody/the soprano line
- bring out the inner tune during the more lyrical middle section

I find if it is played slowly the pedal is absolutely imperative, but at quicker speeds minimal pedal also sounds good.

The problem is to me both methods of playing it sound just as good: i literally cannot decide and so will most likely compromise and change it around for the repeats as you seem to do.

This is also one of my favourite pieces, although the op.23 no.2 is also a favourite of mine. It's also near on impossible to play.....

\

It is hard to keep the volume down when playing those fast chords, but after practice, those chords should feel a little lighter to play, and that will ease it a little. To play that part lightly, which depending on the piano could be harder or easier, I try to play those chords lightly, by only vibrating the hand the 3 times... It is all a matter of practice, and I know that is wrong to make the wrists stiff, but this is the best way to attain light control on this passage. Practice should ease it... on my case it did...

Playing the octaves at speed: It is hard, and humorously fast! But I must confess that after I play these passages 3 times at a given practice period, I can no longer play the octaves properly, because of the very strong pain that comes, seems like someone is pressing on your wrist very tight.  I have to do some other exercises to play the octaves properly again afterwards. It is all practice, and I only practice this passage few times a day. On competition period, I had to practice those, by playing the octaves alone, increasing metronome mark and lifting the hand high to get used to the different keys. Then I added the inner notes.

To emphasize the soprano line, which is vital in this piece, Rachmaninoff at most times wrote an accent mark (marcato) on the notes. So, I just play it louder, emphasizing the notes, and on the note rolls before the 3 fast chords at 1st section, always crescendo. The pedal plays a vital role here, you play the 3 notes before the chords very legato and clear, and with no pedal, only using pedal on the 3rd note of the roll, which is followed by the chords...

On the middle lyrical part (Poco meno mosso) the inner tune is very interesting, and should come out as loud as the outer ones, but only with more expression, as a choir would do. I emphasize it mainly by using the thumbs on them, both on the foot of the chords on the right hand melody, and on the roll of the left hand. It should come out clearly.

Use the imagination... You choose how to organize it  ... There is a thread somewhere by Bernhard, I guess, showing a very organized way to practice this piece by each measure. He related the music to Napoleon's invasion of Russia, a very interesting similarity... I'm still looking for it so I can reply the hyperlink here.

Enjoy practice...

[bernhard]

There is a thread somewhere by Bernhard, I guess, showing a very organized way to practice this piece by each measure. He related the music to Napoleon's invasion of Russia, a very interesting similarity... I'm still looking for it so I can reply the hyperlink here.

Enjoy practice...

See replies 26 and 27 on this thread:

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy).

I don’t think I was the one who made the Napoleon analogy though.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[6ft 4]

thanks guys.

Its SO much harder than it looks and sounds....i've got to perfect for the 30th of June so thanks for help.

[kaiwin]

Well were human, and our hands cannot reach that far for big chords. Of course you will need to split them up...

[6ft 4]

Well were human, and our hands cannot reach that far for big chords. Of course you will need to split them up...

what piece are you talking about?

the chords in g minor prelude aren't big its just there's a lot of them at fast speed

[steinwayguy]

If you want a definitive recording of the g minor prelude, look no farther than Sviatoslav Richter's. It is one of my most cherised recordings (of anything).

[FranzLiszt369]

Could u give me some advice then on the g minor prelude?:

How fast do u play it? Do u play it at 108 as instructed?

Do u use the pedal for the staccato notes?

Do u use the pedal for the octave scales in the 2nd section?

Hey, I played this prelude for a competition this past may.  I'd love to help you out, but I must warn you, there are some things that work for me and not others.   It's best to simply use advice to find your own unique interpretation... after all, music would be noise wihtout interpretation.

for me, I followed the 108 tempo.  To play it cleanly, for me at least, I wouldn't dare go past the 108.  Especially in performance, when you're nervous and tend to rush.  When you start rushing in the Eb major procession, it's really easy to botch up somewhere.  and it is a march like piece, and marches are always kept in strict tempo.

Staccato notes and pedal?  yes, I did that.  use your ear though, just in case though.  If clarity becomes an issue, lose the pedal.

Pedal with octaves in the middle section?  yes.  It's a rhapsody.  Very emotional, moving, and vibrant.  Pedal works wonders.

have fun and always trust your intuition above all.  You're an accomplished pianist if you can tackle this piece.  It's hard, no doubt. 

[Dazzer]

rachmaninov was notorious for playing his pieces way to fast.
the gmin prelude is one of them.

enough said.

[6ft 4]

If you want a definitive recording of the g minor prelude, look no farther than Sviatoslav Richter's. It is one of my most cherised recordings (of anything).

agreed. The dynamics are incredible.

i also like Ashkenazy's and he uses practically no pedal at all.

[Barbosa-piano]

 I still stand on my thoughts that Rachmaninoff's recordings are among the crown jewels in all recording history... But... There are some problems... His recording of Chopin's Sonata in B flat minor and others, have some errors, which I think is funny, because it sounds just like my playing of it without warm up... I read somewhere that he used to get in the studio without any warm up, believing that this would solve his wrong note problem. But on the other side of the coin, most of his recordings for me are unsurpassed... 

[alraydo]

I just listened to this one (thanks, Barbosa):

classic.manual.ru/real/Rachmaninov-performer/AMPICO_Rach_Prel_Rach_23-05.rm (newer one)

Wow.  I was playing that one today and I now realize I use way too much pedal!  I like it.

[Barbosa-piano]

I just listened to this one (thanks, Barbosa):

Wow.  I was playing that one today and I now realize I use way too much pedal!  I like it.

No problem! Any time...

I like both recordings very much, but this one has some special features... If you listen carefully, the piano he used has a sound that is very appropriate to the music, I believe that the agressive sound of the dampers helped. He doesn't use much pedal on this one as on the older one. It is a recording that I listen to over, and over... Very good.

Sincerely,
Mario Barbosa 

[alraydo]

"the piano he used has a sound that is very appropriate to the music"

Absolutely.  He brings out those inner melodies so well.

[Barbosa-piano]

 It is probably a Steinway and Sons, although I don't think it sounds like it... Those are all his very individual motions, the bringing of the inner colors, the melodic line, rubatos, arpeggios, as Sandor said... Most of his Ampico recordings, which I think were the best, had that piano's sound. You probably know about this site, where I got the recordings from. classic.manual.ru . You can find many, many recordings by him there... If you have trouble with Russian, just pass the arrow on the name and it will appear in English on the grey corner.

Mario Barbosa 

[nomis]

The piano used for the Ampico rolls is an Estonia. The Ampico rolls do not represent his true playing if you compare it to his acoustic/electric recordings. For example, the Prelude everyone here seems to be talking about. In the acoustic/electric recordings, they both sound almost the same, which is likely because Rachmaninov wasn't a particularly sponataneous pianist ("You have to peer around every corner."). However, when you listen to the roll, it sounds like a completely different pianist. Sure, the timing may be slightly there, but all the dynamics, voicing, tone colour and various other expressions are completely gone. In the more louder sections in the acoustic/electric recordings, the dynamic levels are pretty much the same, but the piano roll is much weaker. This is why I have deleted all those recordings (except the ones that he didn't record on shellac) because in every case I have found that the playing on the acoustic/electric recordings is much better.

[rachmaninoffismyfav]

How is it that somebody can say that Rachmaninoff can play his pieces "wrong".  He wrote them, he would know them best.  How is it that person who was renowned for studying pieces that he performed to the finest detail to make sure that he performed them well would not do the same with his own compositions.  Utter nonsense.  Some people are just ridiculous.

[pita bread]

Judging from your username, your opinion is quite biased, is it not?

[zheer]

I've only heard Rach play his own 3rd piano concerto, and it is the best apart from Horowitz's recording of it. Long live Horowitz.

[gorbee natcase]

He can't play his own pieces because he died over 50 years ago