Chopin Ballade 3 plus improved Beeethoven Op111-1

[slow_concert_pianist]

Recording equipment/circumstances have not improved. I had a coaching session the other day(first time in 20 months) with my professor. These are slow as, under the professor's advice, he believes these works are usually performed far too fast.

http://www.box.net/shared/nyqhtz8u2o

is a much improved Beethoven OP111 1st movement, but still plenty of work to be done!


http://www.box.net/shared/d8pod9kdea

some may argue this performance of Chopin's 3rd ballade is "half speed", but personally I haven't heard Chopin play it . There is a small fumble at the start, so I repeat the 1st 20 sec's (forgive me).

I will do the Chopin Ballade 2 (this I play much closer to the traditional performance speed) and Beethoven's 16th sonata (which the professor & myself share the opinion is harder than Op111 to play properly) next.

[prongated]

Maybe today many people play it too fast, but this is EXTREMELY too slow. Thing is, Chopin wrote "Allegretto" as the tempo marking. Yours flow as if Chopin wrote "Largissimo". Actually, I can't even follow the way it flows - the underlying rhythm in the opening 2 pages is not clearly understood, for example. As it is, it sounds like a sight-reading attempt...sorry...

Who is this professor of yours, if I may ask? Did s/he really tell you to perform it at this sort of tempo?

[perfect_pitch]

Yeah - sorry, but I have to agree with Prongated...

The chopin was way too slow and would certainly be criticised to hell and back if you were to play it that speed in a concert setting...

I know you're the slow_concert_pianist... but you're not the grave_concert_pianist...

I mean, if this WAS a sight-read, then I would probably forgive you, but don't perform it at this speed, whatever you do.

[slow_concert_pianist]

Maybe today many people play it too fast, but this is EXTREMELY too slow. Thing is, Chopin wrote "Allegretto" as the tempo marking. Yours flow as if Chopin wrote "Largissimo". Actually, I can't even follow the way it flows - the underlying rhythm in the opening 2 pages is not clearly understood, for example. As it is, it sounds like a sight-reading attempt...sorry...

Who is this professor of yours, if I may ask? Did s/he really tell you to perform it at this sort of tempo?

My professor is Slobodan Zivocic. He taught Ivo Pogelorich for a short while.

My performance was an exageration at 14 minutes. In reality it should be performed in around 9-10 minutes in my opinion as it is a lyric song (ballade) and not a tarrantella. I have several reference recordings around 6-7 minutes duration which are simply too fast.

I shall provide evidence at a faster tempo after I demonstrate 2nd Ballade which should be posted this weekend – God willing

A short footnote:- both I and the professor share the concern that the performing world is being pushed into crossing out all tempo markings that are not an effective adagio, replacing them with “presto” or “prestissimo”. Finesse and sensitivity are redundant in place of extreme speed and noise. My objective is to wind that “standard” right back!

[pianowolfi]

There is a whole school and movement about this slow playing and of course it may be true that some tempi have excessively fastened up during the centuries. However, what comes as an interpretative result from most of these endeavours was so far not at all convincing to me. And unfortunately I must say the same about this interpretation.

[m]

My professor is Slobodan Zivocic. He taught Ivo Pogelorich for a short while.

Google return:
Your search - Slobodan Zivocic - did not match any documents.

As far as I know, Ivo Pogelorich (also known as Pogorelich, I assume) received his education in Moscow--Timakin in Central Music School and then changed quite a few professors in the Conservatory. I don't remember anybody named Slobodan Zivocic there.

Even to assume this is true and Mr. Zivocic indeed taught Pogorelich, it is quite amazing to see how deep the roots of slow playing he seeded  in such a short time You are in a good company, Slow_Concert_...

Best, M   

[pianisten1989]

As you said, this is a lyrical piece. Your playing isn't at all lyrical. It's like an old (very, very old) singer, who has to breathe between every word.

Pogorelich plays the 2nd ballade very slow in the beginning. But he still keeps the phrasing and the excitement. You don't.
And too many misstakes.

[jbmorel78]

Dear S_C_P,

Personally, I have no qualms with the tempo of the Chopin.  The problem is that what is foremost in your mind is to remain slow, and in the process, you become slower and slower and forget where the music leads and what it says.

Although you choose a slow basic tempo, there should still be a forward movement in each phrase.  At the moment, the pulse is unsteady, and we lose track of what you intend to say, because the forward movement and "backward movement" are not arranged in any logical manner.

An extremely slow tempo is very difficult to effectively achieve, whereas an extremely fast one requires simply some fleet fingers.  Perhaps for now, while studying the piece and attempting to construct something clear, coherent, and therefore touching to the listener, we might stay away from the extremes?

Even with the intent of a slow-er tempo, I believe that it would be a profitable exercise to practice each phrase a little faster than your eventual tempo, just to find where the phrase leads - then duplicate this in your intended tempo.  No matter what the tempo is, the ideas must remain connected, lead to a point, and therefore, say something to the listener.

Very best wishes,
Jean-Baptiste Morel

[slow_concert_pianist]

Google return:
Your search - Slobodan Zivocic - did not match any documents.

As far as I know, Ivo Pogelorich (also known as Pogorelich, I assume) received his education in Moscow--Timakin in Central Music School and then changed quite a few professors in the Conservatory. I don't remember anybody named Slobodan Zivocic there.

Even to assume this is true and Mr. Zivocic indeed taught Pogorelich, it is quite amazing to see how deep the roots of slow playing he seeded  in such a short time You are in a good company, Slow_Concert_...

Best, M   

He taught Ivo when he was 14 coming through the conservatorium or music school in Yugoslavia. Apparently (the then) procotious young pup said to Slobodan "I will play better than you (professor) in one year". It turns out (according to my modest professor) this was true. But I only have the professor's word on this and have no reason to doubt it.

As for the search, maybe I have spelled his name wrong. I will check when I return home.

[slow_concert_pianist]

Dear S_C_P,

Personally, I have no qualms with the tempo of the Chopin.  The problem is that what is foremost in your mind is to remain slow, and in the process, you become slower and slower and forget where the music leads and what it says.

Although you choose a slow basic tempo, there should still be a forward movement in each phrase.  At the moment, the pulse is unsteady, and we lose track of what you intend to say, because the forward movement and "backward movement" are not arranged in any logical manner.

An extremely slow tempo is very difficult to effectively achieve, whereas an extremely fast one requires simply some fleet fingers.  Perhaps for now, while studying the piece and attempting to construct something clear, coherent, and therefore touching to the listener, we might stay away from the extremes?

Even with the intent of a slow-er tempo, I believe that it would be a profitable exercise to practice each phrase a little faster than your eventual tempo, just to find where the phrase leads - then duplicate this in your intended tempo.  No matter what the tempo is, the ideas must remain connected, lead to a point, and therefore, say something to the listener.

Very best wishes,
Jean-Baptiste Morel

Thankyou for the educated feedback. This is very worthwhile for me. I have reviewed the performance and was quite satisfied in some elements, but I do like to approach this work “as if it were” written by Beethoven and lose some of the Chopin-esque qualities thus. There are definitely parts of the score that have not bedded down, plus many elements of finer detail which, as you rightly comment, have no purposeful motivation or conclusion.

I would love to see more comments of this quality here generally.

[prongated]

My performance was an exageration at 14 minutes.

~phew!~

In reality it should be performed in around 9-10 minutes in my opinion as it is a lyric song (ballade) and not a tarrantella. I have several reference recordings around 6-7 minutes duration which are simply too fast.

  well, I suppose I should like to hear how it sounds when it is in a better shape, as it were...until then, nothing further...

A short footnote:- both I and the professor share the concern that the performing world is being pushed into crossing out all tempo markings that are not an effective adagio, replacing them with “presto” or “prestissimo”. Finesse and sensitivity are redundant in place of extreme speed and noise. My objective is to wind that “standard” right back!

...yes, certain pianists have the tendency to play anything indicated as slow very slowly and anything indicated as fast very quickly indeed - hence losing finesse and sensitivity. However, that is definitely not a whole representation of the entire performing world, that's for sure. And even if fast and loud is becoming the norm, it doesn't mean you should wind the "standard" any further back than is required by the music, does it? (Otherwise surely it will also be categorised as "extreme" speed!)

[birba]

I think your opening tempo in the ballade is quite slow in comparison to most interpretations.  But, I think it could work, if YOU were convinced of that tempo, and it doesn't sound like that's the case.  As you proceed, you distort the tempo even further.  Like you were searching for YOUR tempo.  No, it just doesn't work.  Sometimes it sounds like you're searching for the notes.
I have the same impression in the Beethoven sonata.  The opening is SO disjointed.  The first e flat sounds like an eighth note it's so slow...  I can't emphasize enough how important it is to establish a "common denominator" tempo that will take you to the end of a section or movement and create the pulsating beat.  I would work with a metronome, if I were you, just to get the idea  of the tempo and what Beethoven was after.  He doesn't indicate a specific metronome number, but he says MAESTOSO.  That, in itself, should give you a hint.

[pianisten1989]

Do you really think this is any good at all? Seriously, if this is an improve, I really don't want to listen to you, ever again.

You probably think this is deep. This isn't deep, it's just very very slow.

[jbmorel78]

Do you really think this is any good at all? Seriously, if this is an improve, I really don't want to listen to you, ever again.

You probably think this is deep. This isn't deep, it's just very very slow.

Pardon me, but who are you to judge?  It is okay to offer constructive criticism, but this sort of vitriolic posting has no place on the Piano Forum, coming from ANYONE.

People put themselves out there on these boards in order to receive helpful (and if possible, specific) advice.  There are a great many members who have posted nothing at all (myself included thus far), and in response to the one who has the courage to post, you write "I really don't want to listen to you, ever again" (even with contingency)?

Shame on you.

JBM

[stevebob]

I agree that it takes commendable bravery for most people to post performances for critiquing, and a recording offered in good faith deserves to be received with respect.  However, that's not always the context.

A bit of humility goes a long way when soliciting useful feedback.  Exhibiting entitlement and making demands, on the other hand, tends to chafe.  And if the tone of someone's posts habitually displays hubris and hauteur that turn out to be disproportionate to his or her actual skills, it results in an awkward situation that could invite ridicule.

I don't believe that most people want to be cruel, but "if you can't say something good, then don't say anything at all" is a lot more likely to apply when somebody falls far short in achievement but is otherwise modest and good-natured.  When arrogance is exhibited instead, a certain amount of pushback or even negativity is, I think, a normal response.

[birba]

parole sante!!!!

[pianisten1989]

Yes, I was way too harsch, and I am sorry for that.

So, time to be a bit pedagogical.
First of all, I don't think it suits the piece (the ballade) at all playing it like this.
Though, if you really want to:

Be even more careful hitting the right notes.
Don't use so much pedal, it gets kind of blurry and it doesn't sound very good in this extreme tempo.
Don't lose the lines and phrases even though you play it this slow.

But as I said before. Some people tend to think that slow=deep playing. (ex, the second movement in Appassionata), and slow isn't always deep. Most of the times, it's not.

It's good that you're trying to be original, but wait until you're ready for it. You need to improve your tone quality quite a bit, phrasing, technique.
Maybe you should play easier pieces, to really get the phrasing ideas right?

Once again, I'm sorry for my last post. I had no right to write something like that.

[prongated]

Pardon me, but who are you to judge?  It is okay to offer constructive criticism, but this sort of vitriolic posting has no place on the Piano Forum, coming from ANYONE.

Really? Presumptous perhaps, yes, but not vitriolic. It seems to be merely a strong response to a performance that "pianisten" finds offensive - probably especially given how some people perceive the poster to be.

And in any case, it is absolutely one's right to choose what to listen to - and for one, I too hope to not hear many more of Ballade 3 in this mould.

[martin_blank]

Hey, this is only the internet (and no one knows I'm really a dog), but, why does slow_concert_pianist come across so similar to "PartyPianist" on PianoWorld, where PartyPianist was banned from PW for general jackassery?

I see on PianoStreet that slow_concert_pianist has eased-up on the overtly condescending tone, yet, the jackhole ego still comes through loud and clear.  If you're reforming, thanks and no hard feelings either way.  If not, I hope everyone here sees right through it and runs you off of PianoStreet, just like at PianoWorld.

"Please gentlefolk cease being "picky". Maybe none of you have reached my level, but I have the ability to appreciate a blueprint of a performance project through sight readings. I must confess my last piano coach Slobodan Zicovic exclaimed my sight reading skills were "extraordinary", but I felt he exaggerated."  URL for the quote.

Same teacher, same stories, same-same...

slow_concert_pianist, are you also PartyPianist?

[goldentone]

The Chopin sounds like you are playing it slow, not because you wish to, but because you don't know the piece.  And you don't--your timidity is apparent.  The piece is not coherent.  If this is representative of the other recordings you have offered, and I think it is, my advice is for you to work on your pieces until they are presentable.  Good luck.