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Topic: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances  (Read 11781 times)

Offline unholeee

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #100 on: January 24, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
i didnt say it was. i said  md5 was useless in proving so.

1. proves your statement - which i didnt argue against. and nor did i imply anything contrary.
2. the bytes are the same in both keypegs files - editing the file would change the bytes - then you could claim it was different - rendering md5 useless.

Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #101 on: January 24, 2013, 12:40:04 PM
i didnt say it was. i said  md5 was useless in proving so.

1. proves your statement - which i didnt argue against. and nor did i imply anything contrary.
2. the bytes are the same in both keypegs files - editing the file would change the bytes - then you could claim it was different - rendering md5 useless.

The number of bytes is in itself not an integrity checker. As a matter of fact, I have some other .mp3 files on my computer that "weigh" just as much as the file keypeg submitted:
Code: [Select]
File: C:\Users\p2u\Desktop\3d-commentary.mp3
Size: 3332806 bytes
Modified: 24 January 2013 г., 16:35:24
MD5: 81A6E46E1C44354942CAE3C3B2FADCD0
SHA1: B35F200072DAAC149DDF4D59B72DF4AC14CA2C7D
CRC32: 12EE22DC
Same "weight" in bytes, but different MD5 because both the AUTHOR and the content are different. And of course, if keypeg submitted a file and ajspiano would add even one second of silence to it, both the number of bytes and the MD5 would change. He could (theoretically) also modify m1469's file up to the same number of bytes as keypeg's file, but the hash would still be UNIQUE.

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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #102 on: January 24, 2013, 12:59:13 PM
There seems to be an easy way to get around this. I could simply open the audio file in a sound editing program, copy the audio contents and paste it into another file. Wouldn't that simply make checking these file details useless?
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #103 on: January 24, 2013, 01:10:07 PM
I think an easy way to determine if a recording is authentic is that each recording must start with the performer playing random notes, then they break into the piece. This is incredibly difficult to edit into another recording and would make life extremely hard for would be cheats :)
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Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #104 on: January 24, 2013, 01:13:58 PM
There seems to be an easy way to get around this. I could simply open the audio file in a sound editing program, copy the audio contents and paste it into another file. Wouldn't that simply make checking these file details useless?

I have never tried this, but I don't think the CONTENT would necessarily change by doing this unless the sound editing program uses different encoding. Theoretically, you could get the same hash. As soon as you start editing, modifying, filtering the file (which is what the accusations are about), then both the MD5 and the number of bytes will surely change, even on the initial author's computer.

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Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #105 on: January 24, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
I think an easy way to determine if a recording is authentic is that each recording must start with the performer playing random notes, then they break into the piece. This is incredibly difficult to edit into another recording and would make life extremely hard for would be cheats :)

OK. I will be the special judge for the performance of the random notes, and I'll let you judge the actual repertoire... ;D

Paul
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #106 on: January 24, 2013, 01:23:07 PM
Like if I want to rip off Player A recording I could simply copy all of that content into another file and save it and it will have all unique file information that says it is from my computer. There is no way tell from the file information who I ripped the recording from. Then if I edit the tempo, acoustics, reverberation and whatever else you can come up with you can then start making the recording sound different. Although you need a lot of skill to edit it convincingly so much as to totally mask where the recording was ripped from.

I think if you get the performer to play random notes at the start this makes editing next to impossible to achieve. Unless the cheat can get the same microphone, set the equipment up in the same position, have the same instrument and room size (and I am sure many more things) they can't copy paste audio. If they try to create their own random playing and paste it at the beginning of the rip off then we can hear a clear difference between the random playing notes and the performance piece.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #107 on: January 24, 2013, 01:24:48 PM
OK. I will be the special judge for the performance of the random notes, and I'll let you judge the actual repertoire... ;D

Paul
rofl. We might get some nice compositions coming out of it :)

But you might actually have a challenging important role, especially if you have to prove that the random note playing and the performance itself sound totally different in quality.
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Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #108 on: January 24, 2013, 01:28:42 PM
Then if I edit the tempo, acoustics, reverberation and whatever else you can come up with you can then start making the recording sound different.

This, my dear friend, will change the initial MD5 hash. That's exactly my point. Setting keypeg or m1469 or whoever as the author and even setting a 10-mile password won't help, but the MD5 hash is still the best integrity checker for our purposes. No modifications - no change in hash, even if you rename the file. It works much like a fingerprint.

Paul
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #109 on: January 24, 2013, 01:37:15 PM
If I wanted to rip off someone why would I want to create a file which had identical information as the person I am ripping off? Or am I confused? ehhe
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Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #110 on: January 24, 2013, 01:42:31 PM
If I wanted to rip off someone why would I want to create a file which had identical information as the person I am ripping off? Or am I confused? ehhe

The accusations were about m1469's file having been edited, filtered, etc into a file that was supposedly credited to keypeg. This is theoretically possible, of course, were it not for the fact that keypeg's authentic file had been submitted EARLIER. If all participants had submitted both their files and the corresponding MD5 hashes, we wouldn't have had this scandal. Even if ajspiano had confused one file with another, a simple MD5 check would have revealed the truth and we wouldn't have had this no-smoke-without-fire atmospere.

Paul
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #111 on: January 24, 2013, 01:51:23 PM
I didn't really get what the issue was. I thought m1469's and Keypeg's recordings both sounded different in many ways, even the instruments sounded different..... So I am not really sure how any problems arise. Maybe when they where posted in this thread they might have been mixed around in order then edited later? So when you clicked Keypeg's in the thread it actually played m1469's, that is an easy mistake to do.
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Offline p2u_

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #112 on: January 24, 2013, 02:07:27 PM
Maybe when they where posted in this thread they might have been mixed around in order then edited later? So when you clicked Keypeg's in the thread it actually played m1469's, that is an easy mistake to do.

That's possible. I can't tell. I have been doing integrity checks for years now on EVERY file that gets onto my computer. It's one of my measures to prevent infection in my operating system (I don't trust anti-virus programs to protect me). When I listened to the different recordings of the Tchaikovsky piece (I downloaded them all), all hashes were already different. Besides, I put them all into different folders by username on my wife's desktop.

Paul
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Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #113 on: January 24, 2013, 04:15:38 PM
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I have never before in my life listened to somebody else's recording and been left with the impression that it was my own under somebody else's name, nor can I imagine why somebody would do that

Indeed -- why would anyone wish to copy or emulate your piano playing? Think about it.

Quote
I don't apologize...I do not apologize for how I feel... I do not feel I owe anybody anything

We get that -- you're not going to apologize and its all about you and your feelings

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The experience in this thread has ruined a very large amount for me

What did you expect -- you make loony, baseless accusations and you're unhappy with the reaction. Again... its always about m1469 and her feelings.

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Whether you really know me at all

Be assured -- we're all learning

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In fact, I believe you owe me an apology

Well of course! You're like the person texting while driving who crashes her car through someones living room and demands an apology for putting their house in your way.


PS

Perhaps Martha Argerich will apologize one day for "borrowing" your recordings.

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #114 on: January 26, 2013, 07:42:32 PM
Changing the subject:

For "next one" and "Bach" and "13".... is that the Invention?

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #115 on: January 26, 2013, 07:52:30 PM
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For "next one" and "Bach" and "13".... is that the Invention?

Yes, I think it refers to #13 in A minor.

I love practicing the inventions (most of the 2 part)

Bach used them as little "etudes" to address keyboard issues in general and for his students in preparation for his Preludes and Fugues and other works.

The A minor, IMO, is a little musical gem and great fun to play, and quite difficult with regard to control, voicing, and especially at faster tempos.

A very musical little piece!

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #116 on: January 27, 2013, 01:08:04 AM
... simply because I observe that somebody else did something wrong?
NOBODY did anything wrong except YOU.

About the last chord.  I was a bit late in the pedal.  You aren't.  I almost redid the recording because of it.  Do you hear it?  Meanwhile, if you are any kind of a teacher then you know that it is hard for students to play all of the notes evenly in a chord, especially the note in the pinky (the E), and it is especially hard to make all the notes sound when trying for pianissimo.  If you actually listened, you would hear me struggling to keep the middle chord notes controlled throughout.  LiiW picked up on it --- read his assessment ---- so it's not surprising that as a student I have a faint pinky note on the last pianissimo chords.

I used one recording as a model both to help with ideas, and for technique.  THE WHOLE POINT of participating was to finally dare put out my own recordings, so copying someone else's is illogical.  But if I had wanted to and known how I would have chosen the one by Cubus, not yours.  Sorry.

If anyone finds similarities between this recording and mine .... with mine falling short .... then there is valid reason.  I studied it to learn from it.

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #117 on: January 27, 2013, 01:20:50 AM
Changing the topic to something hopefully more useful:

AJS kicked this off by suggesting physical ways of playing and approaching the piece in a creative, exploratory way.  I found that very helpful.  A second resource which was also approved by my teacher was the playing of Cubus.  I got a lot of insights both for interpretation, and simply the physical way he handled things.  I'm sorry I didn't share it earlier.  Cubus has done quite a few pieces.

This again is Sweet Dreams played by Cubus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UswURqG_c5M&list=PLE311BC4FBA2B1A6D&index=9

and this should bring up his entire playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE311BC4FBA2B1A6D

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #118 on: January 27, 2013, 01:37:16 AM
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This again is Sweet Dreams played by Cubus:

I think he does a really nice job!

This could serve as something to emulate, both in terms of the musical style and his movements to accomplish it.

In the end, the music is inseparable from the technique, since the technique is the necessary movements to produce the desired musical result.

Perhaps I overlooked it, but is he a member of PS?

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #119 on: January 27, 2013, 01:48:16 AM
I think he does a really nice job!

This could serve as something to emulate, both in terms of the musical style and his movements to accomplish it.

In the end, the music is inseparable from the technique, since the technique is the necessary movements to produce the desired musical result.

Perhaps I overlooked it, but is he a member of PS?
I know nothing about Cubus except that he seems to be a fully developed and experienced musician in all ways.  As a musician he seems to think things through, analyzing the music and making decisions, which was one of the goals of this event here.  One can listen and listen to find things in his interpretation.  As a pianist, his hands are very clear to watch.  All of us students wondered how to manage the left hand, and one can see what he does - not that different from what AJS demonstrated in his playing.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #120 on: January 27, 2013, 01:55:38 AM
I think he does a really nice job!

This could serve as something to emulate, both in terms of the musical style and his movements to accomplish it.

In the end, the music is inseparable from the technique, since the technique is the necessary movements to produce the desired musical result.

Perhaps I overlooked it, but is he a member of PS?

I like much of what he does, but I definitely wouldn't imitate his big arm movements in the peaks of the melody. They kill the sense of phrase- giving a series of very individual and somewhat percussive sounds. It's still melodic writing. I can well imagine the sound that a pianist of Cherkassky's calibre would squeeze out, without throwing the arm up and down. It requires intensity of finger pressure from a smoothly drifting arm. Arm force cannot produce the sense of continuity that maintains the melodic quality.

I think keypeg plays it better overall- although just one thing I'd point out is that they both produce two extremely individually differentiated sounds on the two repeated notes at the peak of the melody. I definitely wouldn't copy Cubus on that. A singer will never make two distinctly differentiated sounds on a climax like that, with a strong first beat. In these kind of things, a good trick is to melt the second note into the sound of the first- rather than to individuate it from the first note with a big accent. Thanks to the pedal, the existing sound is enough, without two strong attacks.  Cherkassky was a master of this musical gesture. I wouldn't think of it all that differently to the way that the dotted rhythms are typically blended into a single "murmur".

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #121 on: January 27, 2013, 02:51:15 AM
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I like much of what he does, but I definitely wouldn't imitate his big arm movements in the peaks of the melody.

Well, I'd like to stick with the pianist that Keypeg chose as someone to admire.

From Keypeg's point of view, I think there is plenty to learn from Cubus' playing.

IMO, it is OK that the movement is exaggerated at the point where Keypeg is in his development.

It serves to remedy tightness and improve overall coordination, movement flow (e.g. rounded movements to prevent co-contraction of stopping and starting) and control so long as its producing the musical result desired.

And Cubus' playing also gives a robust melody with rubato over a well shaped but subordinate accompaniment.

Later, Keypeg can learn to minimize movement and in time will realize that the same or better musical results can be obtained with very economical precise movement.

But he has to go through the motor memory learning business first, especially as an older adult having recently taken up piano. (as I recall... not trying to put words in your mouth, Keypeg)

So I don't think the aim is to pick "the best" or most refined performance of this piece to emulate, but just one Keypeg can relate to and learn from.

The fact that he can "see" what's going on and "gets" it, is worth a lot, and something that would not be so evident in more refined playing with regard to sound production, IMO.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #122 on: January 27, 2013, 03:09:39 AM
It serves to remedy tightness and improve overall coordination, movement flow (e.g. rounded movements to prevent co-contraction of stopping and starting) and control so long as its producing the musical result desired.


I take your point, but it's not producing a suitably musical result in Cubus' example. It's possible to play a smooth line with big arm movements, but it's far easier if the movements are horizontal than vertical. The arm needs to flow slowly and impact will be impossible. I think there are better places to learn big arm gestures than in what is supposed to be a continuous melodic phrase. When you know how to drift the arm, it's actually easier to get a resonant sound and sense of freedom compared to when it's bobbing up and down once per note. Although it can initially aid flow, it can quickly go on to be the very thing that interferes most with smoothness of motion.
 
In that passage, I'd be looking for the kind of resonant and connected quality found in the more intense parts of the melody here:



It's about depth and resonance that is squeezed out from a well connected finger, not brute force or arm thrusts. I'm not sure if it's even possible to get Cherkassky's manner of tone with individual arm motions on each note. The same manner of technique also makes it possible to get genuine projection while playing softer- as Cherkassky demonstrates there to a level beyond virtually any pianist who ever lived.

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #123 on: January 27, 2013, 03:50:18 AM
Quote
I think there are better places to learn big arm gestures than in what is supposed to be a continuous melodic phrase. When you know how to drift the arm, it's actually easier to get a resonant sound and sense of freedom compared to when it's bobbing up and down once per note. Although it can initially aid flow, it can quickly go on to be the very thing that interferes most with smoothness of motion.

All of your points have merit, and I cede that you are correct.

However, you have moved well  beyond the context of the topic I was addressing which is Keypeg's chosen recording as an example of the piece he played.

Out of this recording chosen by Keypeg, I'm merely pointing out some of the positives and some of the aspects that can be of developmental benefit.

I am not really a teacher, though I've helped adult beginners at times when they've asked me.

In spite of diligent work ethics, I found out quickly they were not able to make anything like efficient smooth -- much less accurate-- movements, and I had to give them simpler "targets" to aim for. Larger movements like "bobbing" to play a simple slow melody with one hand with one finger. Then add proper fingering -- another big hurdle as they struggled to control one finger at a time.

Then, to put the left hand with the right seemed almost an impossibility for them, and I had to devise very rudimentary little exercises that they could grasp.

Eventually, with what had to be a lot of mental and physical effort -- they'd get just one measure of a simple piece, and be so pleased you'd think they had discovered electricity!  :D

Teaching would be hard work, I suspect.

So its a very good thing, IMO, when someone finds something they understand and can see and can learn from at their particular stage of development.

Me included <g>

I am, after all, my own most difficult and head strong student!

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #124 on: January 27, 2013, 04:04:05 AM

In spite of diligent work ethics, I found out quickly they were not able to make anything like efficient smooth -- much less accurate-- movements, and I had to give them simpler "targets" to aim for. Larger movements like "bobbing" to play a simple slow melody with one hand with one finger. Then add proper fingering -- another big hurdle as they struggled to control one finger at a time.


This is all in reference to what I consider a bad example in the recording- when it comes to the movement quality and the correspondingly lumpy sound in the loud passages.

Those things are all fair enough as part of the process of learning how to properly understand something first. However, I do feel that any bobbing in a melody is something that needs to be dealt with as soon as the notes can be executed. It's such a strong tendency that, once ingrained, it's extremely hard to change the quality. There was a time when I used a lot of dropping exercises to tackle stiffness, but these days I find it's far more productive to get students engaged in slow but continuous horizontal arm movements. The key is not to stop while you play a particular finger- but to keep drifting during the movement. If you avoid the urge to clench in that moment (which is basically as simple as keeping an uninterrupted horizontal movement) it becomes extremely simple- compared to bobbing around and then trying to figure out how to produce sound in a completely different fashion. It becomes possible to move the fingers with tremendous intensity, without causing impact. From here, you can play a genuine forte without sacrificing the melodic quality.

(On my youtube videos virtually all of my videos are still infected by these bobbling qualities. I've only recently learned how to eradicate this bad habit and play an intense melody with a slow horizonal arm motion, rather than a stop-start quality)

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #125 on: January 27, 2013, 03:22:24 PM
I'd like to bring a a perspective, hopefully in the main part good to this initiative of AJSpiano - in fact this is how I have seen it all along.

1. One purpose was to have those who don't participate much, participate more.

2. The other had a teaching and learning element to it.  We were invited to really look at the piece, think of interpretation, think of what lay within it.  We were also invited to explore how we move physically to produce the sounds, and AJSpiano led the way with his video.  I found it informative, and I loved the dog!    :)  Personally, this was very helpful.

The 2nd was right up my alley.  When I restarted piano, my idea of music study was to go after technique, theory, learn efficient ways of practising, and good ways of approaching music. These are the kinds of things I am pursuing in lessons, and I have often written stressing these things - I believe in them.  But it's been all talk on my part.  And was the belief that I based myself on hollow?  It seemed time to actually try to show playing, if it was possible - not just talk.

So I joined this, and took part in exploring the piece, looking at interpretation and such, with my fellow students to be part of the learning process.  I tried to put what we talked about into my playing.  And then I thought that if my performance was even half ways decent, then maybe it shows that the idea that learning how to approach pieces and how to practice actually has merit.  That is the extra sting to the accusation, because it means that everything I tried to represent in my beliefs through actually playing, is negated.  There is also the extra idea being suggested that once people reach the professional level, you no longer develop a piece, you can dash it off on "inspiration".  That is not what I am being taught about what professionals do.

An extra thought: If a teacher creates events such as this one and the composition initiative, as a teaching activity, then I'd think that if other teachers choose to join students in participating, that they would also be helping with the teaching, in support.  I think that at the adjudicating end, Lostinidlewonder did that, by suggesting approaches before the submissions went in.  It's a simplistic thought, but I think that teachers teach.

What AJS has tried to do is a treasure, and it should not be lost.  For learning and growing together, it's an opportunity.

Offline birba

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #126 on: January 27, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
My my my.  Turn my back for a few months and look what I missed!
At any rate,  honors to ajspiano who concocted this competition.  I can only imagine the work and dedication put into it.

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #127 on: January 27, 2013, 05:58:20 PM
This is a music forum, so let's concentrate on that.  :)

I've been learning some important ideas about learning to play, practising, and preparing pieces.  I've also been taught that people don't stop applying them when they are professionals - they simply go through the process faster and/or they're working on much harder material:

You work to understand the piece - or at an earlier level, your teacher guides this up to what you can handle.  We are also learning to coordinate our bodies which is hard in itself.  Even if you know the overall effect you want, you still take it apart to see how you will create it - through timing, dynamics, articulation?  And then you need to know how physically to do it.  Understanding how your instrument behaves is part of it.  For example, if you know the pedal holds a note, then your hand is free to move early, and move more freely.

The great performers give us the illusion that it is all free flowing, effortless, inspired and spontaneous.  People who start music late in life, or maybe who were not taught what they should have been, will try to emulate this.  "Adult lessons" don't help matters, since often they are geared toward this same instantness.  Music actually has to become a strange and unfamiliar thing for a while - an immersion into this sound blending into this next sound, this motion leading to that motion - and then putting it together again.  The performers who play convincing music both have a vision and maybe an inspiration, as well as this "crafting" of the music.

Sucom's impression is similar to what I've been told.  But I think it is because of what was done.  m1469 has told us that she recorded hers the same night by inspiration.  This is no role model for me for professional playing, based on what I'm told.   It might explain those impressions of Sucom's.  If mine has a feeling of flow, like Sucom says, it didn't just happen.  My teacher told me of the steady pulse, and we have been working on keeping pulse even when there is rubato.  There are stages in practising that I followed, as well as analysis of key things.  If the things I've learned have helped me to play better then this is worth sharing.  Not that I have a monopoly on such things.  -  Personally I'd be interested in gems other PSers may find especially important in the same vein.

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #128 on: January 27, 2013, 06:13:16 PM
Quote
Personally I'd be interested in gems other PSers may find especially important in the same vein.

Keypeg

Love to discuss this with you. I always learn something and perhaps I can be helpful as well.

Not quite sure what you mean by "gems"... practice techniques, tips, how to go about certain passages, overall learning guidelines?

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #129 on: January 27, 2013, 06:21:02 PM
Keypeg

Love to discuss this with you. I always learn something and perhaps I can be helpful as well.

Not quite sure what you mean by "gems"... practice techniques, tips, how to go about certain passages, overall learning guidelines?
Maybe along the types of things that I wrote out.

AJSpiano set out the two things which I have numbered 1 and 2 in a recent previous post.  In the spirit of number 2.  Maybe in the context of the piece we all just did, or generally.

Offline costicina

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #130 on: January 27, 2013, 07:43:25 PM
One thing is sure, Keypeg: your approach to piano playing/learning is going to give you extraordinary satisfactions. I'm so glad that a intelligent, motivating and insipiring person has joined this forum.
I've already learned much from you, as from AJ and many other stupendous persons I was so lucky to meet here.

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #131 on: January 27, 2013, 07:52:36 PM
OK, Keypeg.... I found #2, so let me comment generally on your "approach" issues.

Absolutely, it is one's specific approach to a piece of music that is important with regard to its technical execution.

When I was a kid, I thought like most kids do that all you had to do was "get technique" and then apply it to the music.

WRONG!

Its the opposite.

Playing piano is about efficient, small, controlled, precise yet "easy & free" movement designed to produce specific musical sounds.

In the end, there is no difference between the music and the technique since to get a desired sound requires a certain way of playing a key.

 The reality of the instrument is that only a small part of the key movement produces sound.
 
A little over half way in the keys descent is when the key lever catapults the hammer shank and hammer upward (or sideways in the case of uprights) into the string.

Nothing you do before or after engaging this small area of key/lever contact contributes directly to sound production.

So the ultimate goal is to be on the key (or as close as possible) to the moment of play to train one's self with a conditioned musical/technical playing of the key that becomes encoded in motor memory.

So if you want to play a legato piano middle C, this takes a different movement than a crisp staccato forte middle C.

Therefore the musical movement IS the technique, and perhaps this illustrates why mindlessly raising ones fingers and hammering out scales is useless,  counter productive and is forming bad habits that are useless in the making of music.

But I didn't hear any unthoughtful playing in your recording, so I think you are definitely on the right track and doing well!

I don't know if this type discussion was what you had in mind, but hope its helpful.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #132 on: January 27, 2013, 09:01:02 PM

 The reality of the instrument is that only a small part of the key movement produces sound.
 
A little over half way in the keys descent is when the key lever catapults the hammer shank and hammer upward (or sideways in the case of uprights) into the string.

Nothing you do before or after engaging this small area of key/lever contact contributes directly to sound production.



Are you so sure? The sound of one note is the product of past, present and future. Or, to put it another way, the movement when you play a note is defined by what position you have put yourself in- as a result of both where you came from and what you are preparing to do on the following notes (and if you're never preparing for following notes when playing a Chopin Etude, you're screwed already before you get to playing them, much of the time). Piano playing is not like a series of golf shots- where you stop and sit down for cigarette after each note. Every notes sound is dependent on the motions for other notes. You don't get a chance to realign and find a position from scratch, like a golfer does between two shots.

Funnily enough, my most recent blog post is about exactly this issue. Although I published a draft, I wouldn't read it yet, as I need to make various edits and add videos. However, here's a quote:

Quote
Would an athlete be happy starting a 100m sprint having slumped casually against the floor- in the vain hope that they might spring to life in the instant that they hear the starter's gun? No. If they are not properly prepared, they cannot suddenly recover from a disadvantaged position. Even Usain Bolt couldn't win if  he began from a posture where he was teetering on one leg whilst swirling his arms around (like a cartoon character trying not to fall off a cliff). It would be no better if he only avoided falling to the ground like a drunkard by tensing up every muscle in his body. He needs to be primed for action against the starter blocks, in a quality of balance that cannot be conveyed by such overly simplistic terms as "tense" or "relaxed". A good pianistic hand typically needs to be priming itself in much the same way. To exploit your pianistic "starter blocks" properly,  you need to be looking both forwards AND backwards- not waiting for the exact moment where sound is due, before finally getting involved. In most standard playing, we have a situation where the quality of poise against whichever notes were struck last is an inseparable part of the preparation for the notes which are to be sounded next.
.


In my opinion, 95% of tonal control is based on how you set yourself up before the key begins to move. If you get that part right, the actual movement is very easy. Sorry, but I couldn't disagree any more strongly with the stance you present there. Only when a pianist has fantastically good habits can he experience the illusion that it's all about the moment where sound occurs. Take that mindset earlier and it's easy to be prone to tonally disconnected prods, with no sense of musical continuity.  

Offline sucom

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #133 on: January 27, 2013, 09:02:13 PM
When I mentioned the natural flow of the music, I was not not really talking about keeping an even tempo. 

Take, for instance, the first two bars; a repeating pattern which occurs throughout the music.  To me, I see a roller coaster, climbing against gravity, upwards through the notes C D and E. These notes will naturally become slightly weaker as they climb upwards.  When the music reaches E in the 2nd bar, it is like the roller coaster teeting on the top just before the impetus to fall with gravity down to the 2 repeated A's.  Also, the 1st of the 2 A's must glide into the 2nd A; it should slide into the 2nd A with no weight.  You should just literally touch and pass by that first A to move into the 2nd one. To hold onto the first repeated A goes against the physical laws of energy.

While this is demonstrated to a certain extent in both recordings, there is a slightly more fluid movement in Keypeg's playing throughout the piece whereas in m1469's recording, there is a tendency to occasionally lag on the first of the repeated notes. 

When the pattern starts in the opening 2 bars, a statement is made.  C D E | E AA.  This pattern is then repeated slightly higher, D E F F BB.  These two statements shouldn't sound the same.  The second, higher statement should be just that little more intense but not slower on the repeated notes falling downwards.  There should be a difference on the climbing notes, D E F and teetering on the second F in the 4th bar (like the roller coaster just before it falls) but the fall down to the repeated B's should still glide where gravity would naturally apply.  To hold onto the first repeated B in the fourth bar is a mistake, in my personal view.  The first B moves forward into the 2nd B.

For me, listening to this piece, sometimes I feel that m1469's interpretation goes against the natural motion of that roller coaster.  Notes climb upwards, against gravity, they teeter on the top just before the notes fall downwards with the natural pull of gravity.  And when they fall, the repeated notes glide into each other.  The first repeated note shouldn't have any feeling of pausing or holding back.  The first repeated note should just move and glide into the 2nd.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #134 on: January 27, 2013, 09:07:36 PM
Keypeg

Just to add to what I was saying in case people get the impression I'm saying technique and music at the piano are one in the same is some kind of pseudo mystical guru way.... pianists are also basically small muscle athletes who have to develop their ability in order to play the high physical demands of classical piano.

Chopin advocated trills, scales and arpeggios, and considered this to be all you needed outside of piano works.

Bach wanted students also to practice scales, trills, and so on.

But they must be practiced with musical intent, that is to say how one would play them in the literature to develop the correct movements and skills.

There's no point in banging ones way through Hanon with high fingers void of specific musical intention. You're practicing something you'll never use. And by imprinting "bad habits" you're going backwards, not forwards.

I think this is why there's always the debate of practice technique or not.

It is simply a necessity, IMO, and must be done one way or another.

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #135 on: January 27, 2013, 09:22:56 PM
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Piano playing is not like a series of golf shots- where you stop and sit down for cigarette after each note.

Oh, for heaven's sake!

Of course its not like golf and of course you must ready yourself for what you are playing before you play it, and of course transitioning from one note or group of notes is important.

When I wrote about the necessary movement to make a sound, I thought you might jump out and say something, and sure enough you have taken it literally and out of context.

My whole point was to draw attention to the fact that it takes only a tiny movement to make sound, and therefore one should avoid unnecessary arm waving, bobbing up and down, and so forth and to ingrain precise, efficient "musical" movement... the very thing you were talking about JUST LAST NIGHT!

So you are disagreeing with something I did not mean or imply.


Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #136 on: January 27, 2013, 09:30:10 PM
Oh, for heaven's sake!

Of course its not like golf and of course you must ready yourself for what you are playing before you play it, and of course transitioning from one note or group of notes is important.

When I wrote about the necessary movement to make a sound, I thought you might jump out and say something, and sure enough you have taken it literally and out of context.

My whole point was to draw attention to the fact that it takes only a tiny movement to make sound, and therefore one should avoid unnecessary arm waving, bobbing up and down, and so forth and to ingrain precise, efficient "musical" movement... the very thing you were talking about JUST LAST NIGHT!

So you are disagreeing with something I did not mean or imply.


Seeing as you take such an aggressive tone in response to a politely expressed disagreement, I'll simply state that it's down to a person to take responsibility for you own wording- not to blame anyone who takes you literally because you failed to provide necessary contextual issues to an overly simplified point.

It's not about what you meant but what you SAID. I was held back for God knows how many years by the very sentiments you expressed. You cannot expect everyone to fill in the gaps for you, or complain at people who see fit to add the vital contextual issues that you neglected to mention. I merely added the context that you did not provide, for the sake of others who will easily be misled by this kind of  (frankly unequivocal) statement.

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Nothing you do before or after engaging this small area of key/lever contact contributes directly to sound production.

What you do before and after is almost EVERYTHING in terms of what defines the sound that you will produce. Right now, it's 99% of what I have to focus on. When the finger has learned how to move well, that part happens anyway. When I lose control over sound, it's because my finger wasn't setup right- which is ENTIRELY about what I failed to do "before" the note.

That statement portrays piano playing as a series of isolated prods that are devoid of context. What I was talking about last night couldn't be further from that stance. Is it's about feeling a sense of transfer between fingers while the arm progresses smoothly to the side- which involves past present and future. There's no other way to look at it, to get the effect I spoke of. It couldn't be further from the idea that only the moment in which the finger moves the key matters, when it comes to sound.

Offline j_menz

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #137 on: January 27, 2013, 10:05:24 PM
My my my.  Turn my back for a few months and look what I missed!

Welcome back, you have been missed.  :D
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #138 on: January 27, 2013, 10:26:24 PM
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Seeing as you take such an aggressive tone in response to a politely expressed disagreement, I'll simply state that it's down to a person to take responsibility for you own wording

I'm not taking an aggressive tone, and sorry if that's your impression -- I'm taking a frustrated tone.

Though its my responsibility to be clear about what I'm meaning, I think I was clear within the context of what I was saying which had to to with the physical reality of the piano's sound producing mechanism.

And that was it.

From the "piano's point of view" it does not care whether you were thinking the deepest most Beethovenesque musical profundities, or having a cigarette and drinking a bear when you press the key down... all the piano responds to is the velocity of the keystroke and resulting rapidity with which the hammer hits the string.

I was simply talking to someone who is in the early part of his "piano journey" and attempting with a short little word lesson what produces the sound, from which he can think about his "musical movements" based on the reality of what is required. In time as he gains more freedom, control, precision, etc., I hope this bit of factual information can assist him in his approach to the music, preparedness to play, and so on.

I doubt keypeg thought I meant he should play a key in any old way or with the attitude one would hit a golf ball and smoke a cigarette in between shots/key strokes.

I do not disagree with anything you said, other than you seem to require full explanations to everything with all contingencies explored and explained all at once.

IMO, giving too much information is as bad as not giving enough.

I find conversing with you interesting but difficult since you have a tendency to disagree so often due to what WASN'T said, or different interpretation of what WAS said as a contradiction or inconsistency of some sort.

I think you have to trust that people will eventually put 2 and 2 together, and I still think you way "over think" things to your detriment. And no, I don't mean that as a personal affront, but merely an observation I wish you'd consider. Some people don't think enough and that is a bigger problem, IMO.  You have a good mind, IMO, that works over time.

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #139 on: January 27, 2013, 10:35:08 PM

When I was a kid, I thought like most kids do that all you had to do was "get technique" and then apply it to the music.
Do you mean technique learned separately as in doing scales and etudes, and then you "have it" so it just automatically comes into the music?  Or something else?
Quote

Playing piano is about efficient, small, controlled, precise yet "easy & free" movement designed to produce specific musical sounds.

In the end, there is no difference between the music and the technique since to get a desired sound requires a certain way of playing a key.....

Will comment on that a bit further down.

Quote

Nothing you do before or after engaging this small area of key/lever contact contributes directly to sound production.

Yes and no.  Because we ourselves are anatomical beings and the fingers pressing the keys are attached to/part of  hands and arms which in turn are part of a body sitting on a bench with feet on the floor.  I absolutely will not get into arising debates about correct methodology and such.  Ultimately there has to be a good balance of things which for students a good observant teacher will find for the individual, and self-observation plays a role too.

In my own case, my fingers moved from a motionless hand and arm when playing melodic passages.  The loosening and liberating of the body ultimately involved even the feet and head.  While we don't use our heads or feet to press keys, and even though the piano key moves only a short distance, engages the hammers and the rest, in reality the whole body works together.

This part goes more toward where my interests are currently.
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In the end, there is no difference between the music and the technique since to get a desired sound requires a certain way of playing a key.....

The relationship between music and technique.  Actually I will say music, technique, and theory.    And I think to some degree feeling comes into it too.  Theory being the understanding of the music, rather than an abstract thing here.

For example, in Sweet Dreams we have phrases (theory/understanding), and countermelody (ditto), with the phrases reaching a climax and then falling off.  That is the musical vision.  We then need to think how we want the sound we imagine to happen.  We want the outer sounds to be louder than the inner sounds.  How, physically, do we do that?  That is technique which is an interplay between the instrument and the body.

There are times when you are learning when you actually have to divorce yourself from the sound you want to create, and just learn how to move.  For example, I used to associate staccato with a stiff, jerky movement, so to learn the right movement, I had to not imagine the sound - get the movement - and then be able to produce the sound through that new movement.  But sound, music, and movement are still intertwined.  You are just coming from different ends of it.  What you need to work on, and how, depends on where you're at.

There are other aspects such as how to organize all that, and more aspects about the whole course of learning.  For example, at a certain stage I would not want to play very musically if some foundations are being lain down at beginner stages, because those foundations support everything else.  If I am just learning to coordinate pedal, then I will not want to do fancy footwork for even nicer effects, because physically I'm not ready for it yet.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #140 on: January 27, 2013, 10:44:22 PM
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I'm not taking an aggressive tone, and sorry if that's your impression -- I'm taking a frustrated tone.

Okay, apologies if I misread the tone, but I hadn't been attacking you. I was just adding an extremely important  counterpoint to what you said.

Quote
From the "piano's point of view" it does not care whether you were thinking the deepest most Beethovenesque musical profundities, or having a cigarette and drinking a bear when you press the key down... all the piano responds to is the velocity of the keystroke and resulting rapidity with which the hammer hits the string.

But the past and future literally play a role in defining how that occurs. The piano cares about how what you are preparing to do a few notes down the line and how you are poised on the last note played. Each of these issues is fundamental to that keystroke and your control over it. That's why nobody plays well with an umbrella- despite the old cliche about it.

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I find conversing with you interesting but difficult since you have a tendency to disagree so often due to what WASN'T said, or different interpretation of what WAS said as a contradiction or inconsistency of some sort.

To be honest, in this case it was precisely what you phrased that I objected to. You didn't just omit the wider context. You said the past and future don't matter. In their own way, each defines movement that occurs in the present act of producing a sound. So they are absolutely vital- not irrelevant.

Quote
I think you have to trust that people will eventually put 2 and 2 together, and I still think you way "over think" things to your detriment. And no, I don't mean that as a personal affront, but merely an observation I wish you'd consider.

Wait until I upload some new youtube videos. You'll see a hell of a difference compared to even the most recent ones. I'd be a lot poorer for it, if I stopped thinking about how to control my sound and movements. My wilderness years were based on nothing but aiming for sounds- but it's my sound that is improving the most from a thoughtful approach to technique. Most of these things came from rethinking things that used to seem "obvious" until I thought a little deeper.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #141 on: January 27, 2013, 11:35:08 PM
My my my.  Turn my back for a few months and look what I missed!

And then, a shining light rose up during our hour of darkness.

...

Good to see you back birba, i trust you are well.

Offline pts1

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #142 on: January 28, 2013, 09:38:14 PM
Well -- it looks like the administration has deleted all of m1469's nasty posts and the pages of this thread have boiled down from 7 to 3.

Hope she has learned her lesson.

Offline keypeg

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #143 on: January 29, 2013, 03:21:13 AM
One of the late analyses is gone.   :(  But at least so is the junk.  :)

Offline birba

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #144 on: January 29, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
And then, a shining light rose up during our hour of darkness.

...

Good to see you back birba, i trust you are well.
thanks, ajs!  You've been busy the last few months.  I'm sure everyone appreciates the planning, preparation, and time you put into this project.  Bravo!
I have a feeling it was easier form1469to insist in her accusations then maybe admit that she might have been wrong.  As it turned out you had the backing of pianostreet.
Now, what's next on the agenda?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #145 on: January 29, 2013, 05:47:06 PM
YEAH!!!  ;D

Offline ajspiano

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #146 on: January 30, 2013, 09:18:20 PM
Just to keep everyone posted..

Ive registered a new domain name - "thepianocompetition.com"

Right now there is nothing there so don't bother going for a look. In time it will have a bulletin board not dissimilar from this one but with its construction geared toward creating increased participation in events such as the one held here.

I anticipate that there will be the facility to donate to the project, meaning that whatever people throw at it money wise will cover the costs of hosting the site and supply the prizes.

Prizes will not necessarily be for best performance.. They may be for things such as, most improved performer since a previous event, most valued contributor to the discussion thread.. Etc.

The best performances will receive recognition on the site also, there will probably be a winners list thread. And i hope some minor prizes.

I'm thinking prizes will consist of things such as amazon vouchers, and/or piano books (technique/music theory etc..), scores, pianostreet gold memberships.. ? I'll probably have a prize suggestion sections..

Im hoping this structure will minimise cheating and level the playing field a touch so that a less experienced pianist can beat an advanced one based on the effort they put in to learning and discussing their experiences.

Hopefully, this will be a sucessful enough operation that it is not only engaging for people like us who are totally piano obsessed but also as a teacher resource - so that real life students can be given a place to share their performances and be guaranteed to recieve both constructive critisism and the encouragement of their peers. - something which they may not have access to, or perhaps limited access to even with a teacher.

Im also hoping that in time this will be big enough that we can have multiple competitions running and students can be grouped in a more grade appropriate manner if they wish.

Oh yeh - the internet is freakin awesome.

AJ

Offline ajspiano

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #147 on: January 30, 2013, 11:21:06 PM
Okay, quick update -

There is now a smf board at thepianocompetition.com

I have done nothing with it, save sticking "The Piano Competition" up the top of it. \

MEMBER REGISTRATION IS DISABLED. - and will remain this way until such time that I'm ready to run an event at this site. I will let people here know.

I'd just like to also make it plain that I'm not in anyway trying to replace pianostreet here. I will remain active here.. this is purely so I have administrative control over the site that hosts a competitive event.


..

Now, I'll be gradually piecing it together over the next little while (few weeks probably) so you can stop in to view progress if you like - IF you have have suggestions they are most welcome. You can post them here or send me a message.

Additionally, if anyone would like to be involved and help with the project I would be very interested. Ofcourse, I need to know you at least a little bit.. so if you only have 5 pianostreet posts you're not an option. Sorry.

Basically, you need to give a damn about piano and probably also really like helping people with piano.. and have convinced me you're a good person...   and, know your way around the internet so you can perform administrative tasks on a web forum..

*feels like I'm writing up an add for a job.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #148 on: January 31, 2013, 04:17:18 AM
Aweesomme! So a new competition? I am not very reliable because school is flippin crazy! But I am interested in any updates and news. Plus, my piano teacher and I are working on more material! Rad! Keeping it real.
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline birba

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Re: VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances
Reply #149 on: January 31, 2013, 05:17:54 AM
This is an ambitious initiative, ajs!  Looking forward to seeing how it develops.  You must be a whiz at computer skills.
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

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