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Topic: Training for faster fingers  (Read 20894 times)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #100 on: February 07, 2013, 11:15:01 AM
To the first paragraph I wholeheartedly disagree. Not in the part that musicality or musical thinking is the way, but that lack of musicality is the cause of mechanical problems. In my personal case, that is really far from true.. I've never had problems to understand or feel music. Had no problems singing, have no obstacles conducting either.

That was not what I meant, because those are not necessarily linked. Some very great artists I met were really terrible singers; they couldn't even hit the right notes with their voices. I mean: using the PIANO as a musical instrument.

However due to misguided teaching, I have been hampered during a huge number of years. Musical intention is not enough when the basic fundamentals of technique are lacking. And believe me it is very frustrating.

Misguided teaching is the right word, I guess. Had the teacher really understood you when you needed it most, you wouldn't have had the problems you coped with. He or she should, of course, have given you instructions on how to move, how to press a key when it was appropriate. I never denied that. Chopin did that and so did Bach. But it was not the main focus of their teaching.

Paul
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Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #101 on: February 07, 2013, 11:31:12 AM
Of course I agree that the main focus should not be how to do those things but the music! By ALL means!!! I'm so not a technically orientated person, but of course, there are times when those focuses have to shift to adapt to the needs of each one..

A friend of mine used to say, that there wouldn't be enough space in jail for all the bad piano teachers ;) Mind you in Spain is sadly very common, that other instrumentalists that know the notes on the piano teach beginners.. This is not an exaggeration, is a sad reality!

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #102 on: February 07, 2013, 11:41:46 AM
Of course I agree that the main focus should not be how to do those things but the music! By ALL means!!! I'm so not a technically orientated person, but of course, there are times when those focuses have to shift to adapt to the needs of each one..

If I may, I will tell you a little how I work.

Since virtually none of my "students" are my own, I don't touch their "technique". What I do is mostly something like this, and like the instructions I gave in the topic on stage fright, which you can find here. Read the last one till the end. I help them FREE UP their own resources. I manipulate their subconscious with something that seems to have nothing to do with piano playing at all. Believe it or not, it works! :)

Paul
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Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #103 on: February 07, 2013, 12:02:18 PM
feeling the key before you depress it, that is exactly what I think is "the way".

Everything you write is very interesting, and very much in the awareness zone I like! :) I work privately with someone else now, her teaching is also very "inwardly" focused. Just a curiosity, are you Russian? Your English is perfect! and another curiosity (sorry, I'm gossiping) you wrote you were self taught, how did you come to where you are now? I mean.. give me some biography to read! :)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #104 on: February 07, 2013, 12:06:41 PM
Just a curiosity, are you Russian? Your English is perfect! and another curiosity (sorry, I'm gossiping) you wrote you were self taught, how did you come to where you are now? I mean.. give me some biography to read! :)

I'm afraid this is off-topic. I'll reply through mail. Thank you for your understanding.

Paul
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Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #105 on: February 07, 2013, 02:00:38 PM
Of course I understand! Sorry for the intruding!

Maite

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #106 on: February 07, 2013, 11:17:40 PM
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Hello, Guys, HAVE YOU SLEPT AT ALL? It's taken me forever to go through all posts!

Of course, - I suspect you may find that some of us live in quite different time zones to you.

Offline michaeljames

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #107 on: February 08, 2013, 12:33:52 AM
I hate to sound overly like a cult follower..  but the taubman bashing shows a complete misunderstanding of what they are trying to get across. Which is perhaps in part caused by this common assumption that you can learn everything they have to offer by watching their videos once or twice..

..and in most cases I suspect, not delving much further than the rotation video which is a whopping 10 percent of what the DVD's offer.

For one, (whether correct or not) Edna Golandsky (the presenter) says very plainly in the videos that the fingers are lifted through the support of the forearms action (which is in the end very small), despite the finger lift remaining visually prominent in her technique.

In addition to that, she talks about how rotation functions to free the arm, and that initially the taubman school (perhaps just dorothy's private tuition) involved an instruction along the lines of "think from the fingers, allow the forearm to come along" however, this was found to be ineffective in many cases - students remained with the rigid arm and lifted fingers which is the action that leads to severe strain on the fingers/hand. Because this was not working, she adopted a "think from the forearm" approach to teaching students to free up their arm.

The larger rotation actions, and the use of double rotations is plainly insane if done wrong..  however, they directly stress that the "preperatory motion" and the "playing motion" must be felt as one overall motion. This is then also adjusted in the "minimising rotation" part of the explanation where they discuss the sense of balance and stability over a key, and the rotation in combination with another movement that they devote an entire lecture video to acts as a way to freely transition between keys, more so that it necessarily is an active playing motion - especially in the case of active/passive rotation..    They focus on being free between notes, and moving with tiny arm/hand/finger motions (ones besides rotation) from key bottom to key bottom to properly reduce this overdone problematic rotation that functions only as part of the technique in the end.

The rotation motion (even when minimised) finds itself in quite the pickle if you fail to properly utilise the in/out, walking hand arm, and shaping motions. Failure to do anyone of these will cause significant problems in advanced repertoire.

The videos represent a detailed nuts and bolts analysis of what is happening in a pianists technique. It is absolutely not meant for someone who lacks technique to watch and then totally overhaul their technique by themselves. They say this plainly. The videos are not even presented as lessons to the viewer. They are recordings of live lectures that are aimed at teachers, and advanced or injured pianists.. they present a method for diagnosis, how to figure out why you have a problem - if you have a problem - and EVERY person there was getting in person lessons daily for 2 weeks, that address their specific weaknesses. Its possible that many of them did not do the rotation exercise at all because their problems were elsewhere..  after all, she opens with "Don't go adjusting your technique based on this lecture without consulting a teacher".

.....

I might add to this also, that any experienced teacher knows that you can't necessarily solve the same problem with the exact same explanation every time. Each different student needs to be guided and find their method and/or understanding of what works to achieve a desired sound.

This is strongly stressed in these videos, that they are GUIDING. - they talk about students who have the wrong idea about how to learn expecting the teacher to tell them if they have got it right based on a visual analysis.. When in reality they are directing you toward a FEELING of how to play. The student will know when its right, because the playing will become easy..   if you're doing something from taubman and you're not experiencing ease of playing then you're not doing what they intended.

Either you're interpretation of their intent needs refining, or their explanation is just not right for you at all.

Thank you.  You went far more in depth than I did.  I was in no way attempting to "teach" the Taubman/Golandsky methods at all.  I was only offering a couple of "pearls" that I thought could help. 

I currently study with a great teacher.  Every week we discuss and I show her things I've learned from the DVD's.  Having played and studied for 46 years, I've found the DVDs to be an absolutely phenomenal learning tool.  As my teacher pointed out, however, many of the lessons are adapted by pianists naturually.  When I was first taught at age 5, my teacher insisted the fingers be held as if there were a basball/orange in the palm.  Very curved fingers maintained always, playing always on the very tips of the fingers.  When I transferred to the University of Minnesota professor in school grade 7, he taught me more in my first lesson about refining technique and sound than I had learned in the entire seven years of study.

I've always been a marathon player...when I sit down to play, I remain there for several hours, usually at minimum 5 days a week.  I've never had an injury, therefore I must be doing something right.

Octave runs, like those in the middle section of Chopin's Polinaise in A flat, would cause fatigue in my forearm until I developed a different set of skills, which happen to be the same skills which are taught by the Taubman technique. Watching the videos really helped me to understand the physiology of what is happening when playing octaves (and other things as well.) I think they're an invaluable tool.  And I also believe that any accomplished players can (at minimum) gain a great deal from the videos....dare I to say even without a teacher! 

I didn't think I deserved the bashing, either.

Offline pts1

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #108 on: February 08, 2013, 02:13:40 AM
Michaeljames

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I think they're an invaluable tool.[videos]

I agree!

Though I haven't seen the videos you're referring to, I think viewing a video that is well done in any subject is an extremely valuable tool.

Being older, as I infer you are too, I find the communications and access simply amazing.

It used to be that the only options were in-person instruction or reading and trying to figure it out.

With a video, you can watch it over and over at your leisure, stop or pause when you need to, and focus on what you need until you "get it".

Of course this means the video instruction must be really good.

Which is a segue to the bad side of things -- there is an awful lot of bad/harmful instruction out there on the internet about piano playing by people who don't know what they're doing!

They mean well, but they are inept. Anyone with a video camera, computer and little bit of knowledge can become an "authoritative teacher" posting their videos on line.

Youtube is FULL of this type of thing. But of course this is more about human nature than the medium, since this has always been a problem and always will.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #109 on: February 08, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
I hate to sound overly like a cult follower..  but the taubman bashing shows a complete misunderstanding of what they are trying to get across.

I didn't think I deserved the bashing, either.

Oh... I think something went wrong here, but I can't locate where exactly.

I thought ajspiano was talking about "Taubman bashing" in general (there really wasn't any in this topic as far as I'm concerned), but now, michaeljames states that he didn't deserve to be bashed either. Is this a misunderstanding between you two quoted people or has anything here been removed/deleted?

Paul
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Offline ajspiano

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #110 on: February 08, 2013, 03:36:34 AM

I thought ajspiano was talking about "Taubman bashing" in general (there really wasn't any in this topic as far as I'm concerned)

Paul

"Bashing" was too strong a word.. since the poster stated having not watched the videos.

I was refering to the below quote, and generally as well - there is a bit of a theme here (the forum in general) of ill informed judgement of the taubman videos.

Quote from: maitea
I haven't seen Taubman videos, but saying that the movement originates in the forearm, sounds like a dangerous notion to me

Actually, its probably just ill-informed comment on piano technique generally (not taubman specific)

Offline pts1

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #111 on: February 08, 2013, 03:56:27 AM
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I was refering to the below quote, and generally as well - there is a bit of a theme here (the forum in general) of ill informed judgement of the taubman videos.

I decided to pick a Golandsky video off youtube somewhat at random where she is giving a tutorial on the first page or so of the Waldstein Sonata which I know well and for many years. (she goes as far as the tremolos)

Here it is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy-levbA2RM

I found it to be very good, and very easy to follow. I'd think anyone learning the piece or trying to "relearn" it using correct mechanics could understand her clear explanations and demonstrations.

What I especially liked was that she did not indulge in any kind of "artsy metaphorical" business, and simply cut to the chase.

Personally, I HATE that artsy metaphor stuff, e.g.: "the hands should be like little birds flapping their way toward heaven with grace and soaring". Also as bad is the "spiritual alignment with the universe" stuff.

PUHLEEEZE!!!

And there is a lot of that type thing around in lieu of solid discussion of mechanics, their musical effect, execution, anatomy and so on.

I didn't know what to expect, but I was pleasantly surprised.

Offline outin

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #112 on: February 08, 2013, 05:33:41 AM



Personally, I HATE that artsy metaphor stuff, e.g.: "the hands should be like little birds flapping their way toward heaven with grace and soaring". Also as bad is the "spiritual alignment with the universe" stuff.


I hate those too! I don't know if some people really find them useful, but that kind of explanations are a sure way to confuse a pragmatic person like me... Now if my teacher ever uses metaphors I just tell her I have no idea what she is talking about :)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #113 on: February 08, 2013, 07:19:21 AM
Personally, I HATE that artsy metaphor stuff, e.g.: "the hands should be like little birds flapping their way toward heaven with grace and soaring".

Actually, I like the soaring part, because this means you don't have to flap your wings so often. Unfortunately, the tail feathers to use as brakes for landing are missing. That's probably why so many artsy types crash down into the keys with poor tone control... ;D

Paul
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Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #114 on: February 08, 2013, 08:20:32 AM
Of course, - I suspect you may find that some of us live in quite different time zones to you.

Ajspiano! Is there less sense of humour as you go along the time zones? ;) just kidding :)

"Bashing" was too strong a word.. since the poster stated having not watched the videos.

I was refering to the below quote, and generally as well - there is a bit of a theme here (the forum in general) of ill informed judgement of the taubman videos.

Actually, its probably just ill-informed comment on piano technique generally (not taubman specific)

Well, there was no intention to offend, if that came across I'm very sorry. I don't advocate for Schools nor teachers, I always write "in my opinion", which obviously my not convince all, or any, but that's what you get, the opinion from the experience of someone that lives from playing the piano everyday. We may disagree, an that is abdolutely fine! I've stated a number of times, that I believe everyone is different and has different needs, work methods and solutions to the problems.

On the quote, I said honestly I had not seen the said videos, but thought the notion of the "movement originating in the forearm" was dangerous. I didn't say, wrong or anything along those lines. I thought dangerous, because it is very easy to misinterpret, I find, you may disagree, no problem. I went on in my little post that day, explaining how I feel about it, may add a thing: for me the movement/s stem from the musical image in the brain, to the fingertip,then the rest, wrist, forearm follow. Even in rotation, I feel the motion is guided by the fingers. I'm not lifting them then, or doing that much with them, but I feel they are the source of movement, the put the arm to work, not the other way round. If it is ill informed, I assure you, it works for me. :)

Hope that clarifies, really no intention from me to offend.
Maite

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #115 on: February 08, 2013, 08:56:26 AM
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Ajspiano! Is there less sense of humour as you go along the time zones?
Probably, at least in the case where we fail to sleep the night before, which may have been why I responded like that.  I wasn't having a go at you by the way..  not about this or the taubman stuff. It was just your comment that triggered my thought process.

You don't seem ill-informed, and I didnt mean to suggest that. - nor was I asserting that the "think from the forearm" thing is right, and your method is wrong.. it is a solution for pianists who fail to naturally rotate (as a support for the finger action - which you obviously do) or who were mistakenly trained to keep their arms totally rigid by those who actually are ill-informed.

Any level of frustration that may have come across in my post was directed at the forum in general. Historically, threads on this kind of topic deteriorate rapidly into extended pissing contests between people who refuse to take an interest in other peoples knowledge or opinions and tout themselves as being all knowing.

Taubman tends to cop the brunt of that when ever its brought up, which is unfortunate. The conversation gets hung up on whether double rotation is a valid technique and the other 18 hours of extremely valuable content gets tossed aside because someone who misinterpreted the rotation video decides to discredit the entire set of the basis on one concept that they didn't even understand.

...........

For the record, I also don't consider taubman to be some kind of complete technical method.. despite it being marketed and often received/implemented as such by viewers.

I consider it to be a particular way of explaining a range of concepts that ALL of us use. You'd be hard pressed to find a competent pianist that doesn't use everything they discuss at least sometimes, whether by intuition or as a result of instruction...  though they may have got there by thinking about it in a completely different way... or not thinking about it at all.

Offline pts1

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #116 on: February 08, 2013, 03:45:38 PM
AJ

Speaking of Time Zones, if I'm correct,  you live "down under" and are frequently "a day ahead" of us in the USA.

So since you live in "tomorrow" how about telling us the winning numbers in some big lottery, winner of a horse race or something?

That way we could all buy big beautiful Bosendorfers!  ;D

Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #117 on: February 08, 2013, 04:39:25 PM
Aj, really glad to read you :) It's really not my intention to create ill-natured confrontation, though I guess, it is sometimes difficult to asses the tone of the writer, when not knowing each other previously. And please, yes, give us the winning number of the lottery! haha

God, I'm desperate to have a better instrument at home.. I'm still far from the Bosend ..

Offline pts1

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #118 on: February 08, 2013, 05:09:43 PM
Maitea

For what its worth, I didn't read anything that seemed confrontational on your part.

So I think you're being unnecessarily hard on yourself!

You seem like a very nice person who is quite aware of politeness and concern for others feelings!

 :D

Offline maitea

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #119 on: February 08, 2013, 10:51:07 PM
Thank you Pts1, very kind! :) :) :)

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #120 on: February 09, 2013, 12:23:23 AM


The videos represent a detailed nuts and bolts analysis of what is happening in a pianists technique. It is absolutely not meant for someone who lacks technique to watch and then totally overhaul their technique by themselves. They say this plainly. The videos are not even presented as lessons to the viewer. They are recordings of live lectures that are aimed at teachers, and advanced or injured pianists.. they present a method for diagnosis, how to figure out why you have a problem - if you have a problem - and EVERY person there was getting in person lessons daily for 2 weeks, that address their specific weaknesses. Its possible that many of them did not do the rotation exercise at all because their problems were elsewhere..  after all, she opens with "Don't go adjusting your technique based on this lecture without consulting a teacher".

Just coming back to this, why are they putting out titbits on youtube? Why aren't they blocking anyone from access to the lectures unless they are studying with a teacher who is trained in the method? You can't have it both ways on this sort of thing. If I put out a video on youtube in which I advocated a still arm from which fingers create all the key movement, I'd have no business telling people it's not my fault if it does them more harm than good (or saying "this is the correct technique with which you play the piano, but please don't actually attempt to follow any of this advice (that I uploaded to youtube for everyone to see) because there's other stuff I'd have to show you in person". Worse still if I charged hundreds of pounds for DVDs and finished with the exact same statement that nobody should use the advice they paid for without also paying me for lessons. Anyway, if I posted a short clip in public about a still arm, it would be my own fault for not making a proper point of explaining how you actually need to a whole load of other stuff before you refine things to smaller movements. Once you've made a video illustrating something, you can't just tell people not to attempt it. Either don't put the video up in the first place or ensure that the explanation is good enough not to harm anyone who takes it literally.

The description above is inconsistent with itself. If a teacher is not trained in Taubman, why are they any more likely to understand pseudoscientific or unclear explanations than anyone who isn't a teacher? Incomplete explanations that are not consistent with an objective reality don't make more sense just because someone is a teacher. Why would deduce how to get the mysterious balance of elements correct, any more than a student? If you need to take lessons from the teachers to make any sense of the DVDs at all, they are not done very well. The problem lies in their explanation of what they are looking for. Nobody has to claim that double rotation is a literal reality of fast scales or believe that to be so, for rotation practise to be useful. All it takes is to say that it's a learning exercise and that it's the freedoms you keep rather than the movement. Having a video up on youtube that portrays use of double rotation as a reality at high speeds is likely to do plenty of people more harm than good- and it's no use saying it's not their fault or people must have misunderstood it. They put these titbits up for all to see, complete with bogus explanations rather than plausible explanations of how training exercises prepare for something else. The gravity illustration in octaves is also quite painful to watch (with a demonstration of overwhelming impact upon landing being portrayed as a supposedly "healthy" technique). The method needs to take responsibility for its own failings and set about improving them, if it wants to get out of its cult like image. Trying to divorce themselves from responsbility for their own teachings is just trying to weasel out of accountability for their method.



Quote
 if you're doing something from taubman and you're not experiencing ease of playing then you're not doing what they intended.

Quite possibly because they did not do a job of communicating what they intended (or necessarily even know exactly how to describe what they intended).

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #121 on: February 09, 2013, 02:27:14 AM
The videos represent a detailed nuts and bolts analysis of what is happening in a pianists technique. It is absolutely not meant for someone who lacks technique to watch and then totally overhaul their technique by themselves. They say this plainly. The videos are not even presented as lessons to the viewer. They are recordings of live lectures that are aimed at teachers, and advanced or injured pianists.. they present a method for diagnosis, how to figure out why you have a problem - if you have a problem - and EVERY person there was getting in person lessons daily for 2 weeks, that address their specific weaknesses. Its possible that many of them did not do the rotation exercise at all because their problems were elsewhere..  after all, she opens with "Don't go adjusting your technique based on this lecture without consulting a teacher".
This makes very good sense, it completes the picture when working on and discussing technique. It also puts the lecture into perspective and warns observers not to simply agree with it without testing it themselves. You can discuss technique in generalizations but if you do not have a teacher to go through it with your own hands in a given piece then it wont complete the picture. The discussion may open new perspectives but without testing it out in a guided manner which relates to your own personal situation it will prove useless.

Since this lecture is aimed at teachers it is assumed that they have experience with many different hands and many different fingers, thus what is discussed will make sense with certain students. If you are not a teacher and are just considering yourself you may find a lot of what is discussed is of no relevance to yourself (unless you are certainly a pianist with injuries from bad technique).

With many responses online about technique and the mechanics of playing some think that you can skip the personal assessment part which requires observation of your own two hands and a given piece of music and that elaborate generalized description without specific example is enough. If they notice that this is an essential part to the learning process they might say a lot less because they will realise what they say is useless and irrelevant to most people, especially when attempting to go into details about technique without precise musical example and particular hand.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #122 on: February 09, 2013, 03:01:41 AM
This makes very good sense, it completes the picture when working on and discussing technique. It also puts the lecture into perspective and warns observers not to simply agree with it without testing it themselves. You can discuss technique in generalizations but if you do not have a teacher to go through it with your own hands in a given piece then it wont complete the picture. The discussion may open new perspectives but without testing it out in a guided manner which relates to your own personal situation it will prove useless.

Since this lecture is aimed at teachers it is assumed that they have experience with many different hands and many different fingers, thus what is discussed will make sense with certain students. If you are not a teacher and are just considering yourself you may find a lot of what is discussed is of no relevance to yourself (unless you are certainly a pianist with injuries from bad technique).

With many responses online about technique and the mechanics of playing some think that you can skip the personal assessment part which requires observation of your own two hands and a given piece of music and that elaborate generalized description without specific example is enough. If they notice that this is an essential part to the learning process they might say a lot less because they will realise what they say is useless and irrelevant to most people, especially when attempting to go into details about technique without precise musical example and particular hand.


Obviously one on one lessons with a good teacher pay off, but there's a fundamental contradiction here. People teach differently, just as hands are different. Why is it okay to give a teacher lectures and then expect them to know how to put the principles into teaching (regardless of what pianistic schooling they had themself and what approaches they currently use) but it's not okay to learn them and use them on yourself? Arguably, it ought to take even deeper understanding of the techniques to use them on others than on yourself. If a person can't self diagnose by filming themself, how do they have a hope in hell of giving the right diagnosis and advice to a student? It doesn't make any sense at all to me that teachers can use these things with impunity, just because they are already a teacher, whereas students (who may be a good deal more advanced than plenty of teachers) would be expected to misunderstand. There's a whole lot of cognitive dissonance behind the explanations. Supposedly I might harm myself if I use their methods on myself, yet it's fine if I want to go ahead and use them to rebuild the technique of my students? How is that meant to add up?

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #123 on: February 09, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
The description above is inconsistent with itself.

This approach is mainly aimed at people who are in trouble; to give them hope. People with problems are prepared to accept ANY explanations, even if they are not scientifically correct. At the same time, to make the client pay, you have to use "teasers" to show only part of the solution and the ultimate result as a promise. Any other approach would be "pearls before swine".

On the other hand, they want to avoid damage claims in court by people who CLAIM to have taught or practised according to their system without actually knowing the nuts and bolts of the system. In terms of business, this makes sense, doesn't it?

EDIT: A dangerous metaphor, I know, but theories about piano playing are in some way related to religion: the absence of evidence that something exists does not necessarily mean that it does not exist.

Paul
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Offline outin

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #124 on: February 09, 2013, 06:29:06 AM
Obviously one on one lessons with a good teacher pay off, but there's a fundamental contradiction here. People teach differently, just as hands are different. Why is it okay to give a teacher lectures and then expect them to know how to put the principles into teaching (regardless of what pianistic schooling they had themself and what approaches they currently use) but it's not okay to learn them and use them on yourself? Arguably, it ought to take even deeper understanding of the techniques to use them on others than on yourself. If a person can't self diagnose by filming themself, how do they have a hope in hell of giving the right diagnosis and advice to a student? It doesn't make any sense at all to me that teachers can use these things with impunity, just because they are already a teacher, whereas students (who may be a good deal more advanced than plenty of teachers) would be expected to misunderstand. There's a whole lot of cognitive dissonance behind the explanations. Supposedly I might harm myself if I use their methods on myself, yet it's fine if I want to go ahead and use them to rebuild the technique of my students? How is that meant to add up?

You are getting close to an issue here that I have wondered quite a bit. I am used to teachers having competence in pedagogy as well as in the subject they are teaching. Part of being a good teacher is to be able to assess every students different needs and recognize problems in the learning progress early. A good teacher also understands the limitations of teaching and his own shortcomings. Piano teaching is one field where there are lots of teachers with no pedagogy education at all. So one certainly cannot expect all of them to be better teachers than the students themselves except that they can see and hear the playing better while it happens and usually have some knowlegde of technique and music that the student doesn't have. Is it really teaching if all one does is show things "this is how you do it" and tell the student whether something was good or not and sent them home to practice more, but never really analyze the student's learning process?

I am not saying that having a degree in teaching makes one a better teacher than someone who is naturally gifted in this field. But in general research shows that better educated teachers tend to bring better results. Although arts and math may be a bit different, the teaching and learning processes have similarities.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #125 on: February 09, 2013, 07:02:39 AM
I am not saying that having a degree in teaching makes one a better teacher than someone who is naturally gifted in this field. But in general research shows that better educated teachers tend to bring better results. Although arts and math may be a bit different, the teaching and learning processes have similarities.

Yes and no. The problem with the art of piano playing is that there is virtually no objective evidence present for unification. Too many people with different bodies, different coordination, etc. The knowledge to be passed on is mostly empirical (mostly SUBJECTIVE observation and experimentation) by its nature. You can't learn this if you don't have it in you; no amount of academism is going to change that. What you need is true experience and a genuine wish to care about the well-being of your students. This is mostly what I see lacking in many who call themselves teachers.

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Offline outin

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #126 on: February 09, 2013, 07:12:33 AM
Yes and no. The problem with the art of piano playing is that there is virtually no objective evidence present for unification. Too many people with different bodies, different coordination, etc.


I don't really disagree with you, but isn't it the same with sports? Still we (well here at least) expect a teacher to have teacher's education to teach sports...then again sports teachers that I had were mostly horrible so I guess you must be right :)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #127 on: February 09, 2013, 07:15:58 AM
I don't really disagree with you, but isn't it the same with sports? Still we (well here at least) expect a teacher to have teacher's education to teach sports...then again sports teachers that I had were mostly horrible so I guess you must be right :)

A lot of money has been invested into sports research. There are also VERY strict rules for who is allowed to teach. Still, there are only a handful of VERY good trainers. If good piano playing were an important asset to win wars, no doubt in my mind governments would start investing hugely and immediately... ;)

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Offline outin

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #128 on: February 09, 2013, 07:23:40 AM
A lot of money has been invested into sports research. There are also VERY strict rules for who is allowed to teach. Still, there are only a handful of VERY good trainers. If good piano playing were an important asset to win wars, no doubt in my mind governments would start investing hugely and immediately... ;)


I actually think that if every citizen was expected to play music at some level, not only would they be more intelligent in general but there would be less interest to create havoc and wars...

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #129 on: February 09, 2013, 07:28:52 AM
I actually think that if every citizen was expected to play music at some level, not only would they be more intelligent in general but there would be less interest to create havoc and wars...

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but observing the holy wars on the subject of how to move a key on different piano forums would suggest otherwise... ;D

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Offline outin

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #130 on: February 09, 2013, 07:32:00 AM
I don't want to go too far off-topic, but observing the holy wars on the subject of how to move a key on different piano forums would suggest otherwise... ;D

I stand corrected :)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #131 on: February 09, 2013, 09:56:51 AM
First of all a teacher is more experienced with piano education than a student. A teacher often has taught hundreds of students and seen how music works for many individuals. A student generally only knows themselves. This is why lectures that aj pointed out are a lot more beneficial for teachers than students.


Why is it okay to give a teacher lectures and then expect them to know how to put the principles into teaching (regardless of what pianistic schooling they had themself and what approaches they currently use) but it's not okay to learn them and use them on yourself?
This is quite simple, teachers have the facility to use lectures and see how it relates to large network of students that they teach. It is a misconception to think that teachers teach solely from a particular school of thought, rather, effective teachers use concepts from many places to aid our overall teaching. It is not like learning different languages, all teaching methods are related to one another in some form this is common knowledge for those experienced in teaching.

Arguably, it ought to take even deeper understanding of the techniques to use them on others than on yourself.
I disagree, I have been to hundreds of lectures on music, I have listened to professors who do not play piano talk about how to learn music and I completely understand them and the techniques they may use to learn music. Likewise I have listened to a huge number of lectures which teach piano from different perspectives, just because I might not study what they are talking about in detail before hand doesn't mean I don't understand how to apply their teachings. In fact I can instantly relate what they are talking about to particular instances that I may come across in the hundreds of piano students that I have taught. Again, quite a simple situation to understand.

If a person can't self diagnose by filming themself, how do they have a hope in hell of giving the right diagnosis and advice to a student?
Filming has nothing to do with it.

It doesn't make any sense at all to me that teachers can use these things with impunity, just because they are already a teacher, whereas students (who may be a good deal more advanced than plenty of teachers) would be expected to misunderstand.
Maybe because you are just speaking for yourself your experience in discussions with other teachers is limited and thus you are confused.

There's a whole lot of cognitive dissonance behind the explanations.
Well we cannot argue about your opinion.

Supposedly I might harm myself if I use their methods on myself, yet it's fine if I want to go ahead and use them to rebuild the technique of my students? How is that meant to add up?
You might have to do some work on your own, no one here can teach you that.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers juju
Reply #132 on: February 09, 2013, 10:51:20 AM
Rather than deal with individual points, I'll come straight to the crux. firstly, there's way more disparity in teaching schools than human hands. Hands are much the same in all but details. Teaching approaches are riddled with opposing stances- not basically all the same.

It goes without saying that good teachers should be insightful and competent, but that's both idealism rather than typical reality and not anything that has been brought into question. If a teacher can learn how to teach unfamiliar techniques to others based on a, mere checklist from a dvd, why can they not film themself and apply the same means of diagnosis and prescription? Seeing as the taubman approach bills itself as different and requiring special insights, the fact someone has been teaching piano from another viewpoint does not mean they will know how to use the techniques- or understand when they are likely to be useful/harmful.

Either it's safe for students to teach themself from the dvds, or it's potentially dangerous for teachers to attempt to use the materials on students. Even a teacher who is widely schooled in diverse approaches will see the ideas from his own point of view- not from the inside knowledge that taubman teachers claim. the deep inner workings and means for fine tuning are no more likely to be appreciated by an experienced teacher than a moderately advanced student- as by nature the method bills itself as being a different way of thinking, compared to regular methods. With the bad description of double rotation on the film, I can picture teachers wreaking havoc on students merely because the dvd says if you see x, tell the student to do y. A student with self awareness is much more likely to perceive that it's impossible to play if you're caught up in one element. I'd be more concerned by people teaching technique to others via second hand understanding of a lecture (without special training) than by people taking advice first hand for their own use.

 

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #133 on: February 09, 2013, 11:06:19 AM
there's way more disparity in teaching schools than human hands
I don't see the point in trying to guess which has more variation.

Hands are much the same in all but details.
If one explores what the "details" are they may see how various hands actually are.

Teaching approaches are riddled with opposing stances- not basically all the same.
Can you please give some SPECIFIC examples of two schools teaching the same issue but with totally different stances with zero similarity?

It goes without saying that good teachers should be insightful and competent, but that's both idealism rather than typical reality and not anything that has been brought into question.
But at least proper teachers should be able to understand these lectures without confusion. Just because there are lesser teachers who might be confused doesn't reduce the value or usefulness of these lectures.


If a teacher can learn how to teach unfamiliar techniques to others based on a, mere checklist from a dvd,
They would instead use a checklist of all the techniques they are familiar in teaching to understand it.


why can they not film themself and apply the same means of diagnosis and prescription?
Liszt was unable to film himself yet he was an exceptional teacher and broke new grounds in piano technique. You do not need to film yourself.

Seeing as the taubman approach bills itself as different and requiring special insights, the fact someone has been teaching piano from another viewpoint does not mean they will know how to use the techniques- or understand when they are likely to be useful/harmful.
I disagree, with knowledge of many piano teaching techniques they are more capable to understand if they are applying new concepts accurately or not. Experience base is a vital tool not only with learning new pieces but also the area of teaching music itself.

Either it's safe for students to teach themself from the dvds, or it's potentially dangerous for teachers to attempt to use the materials on students.
I agree that it can be very dangerous for some unwary or inexperienced teachers and almost always dangerous for students. However with lectures you do not "dumb" down or go into vast elaborations trying to make everyone understand. If you have a large experience base of teaching techniques this is unnecessary. If the lectures try to be a stand alone to teach the inexperienced, then this is a different matter and I don't think any book or video or class room lecture can cover it without looking at a given piece of music and a given type of hand.

Even a teacher who is widely schooled in diverse approaches will see the ideas from his own point of view- not from the inside knowledge that taubman teachers claim. the deep inner workings and means for fine tuning are no more likely to be appreciated by an experienced teacher than a moderately advanced student- as by nature the method bills itself as being a different way of thinking, compared to regular methods.
A teacher knows how to teach music to a huge variety of students. A student only knows themselves. Thus a teacher is much better equipped to understand these video lectures.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #134 on: February 09, 2013, 11:32:48 AM
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If one explores what the "details" are they may see how various hands actually are.
Can you please give some SPECIFIC examples of two schools teaching the same issue but with totally different stances with zero similarity?

Of course. Many methods say tone come from dropping the weight of the arm with no finger movement whereas others say the fingers should produce all the movement. Have you hoenstly never encountered such common contradictions? How many hands have the thumbs on the opposite side?

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But at least proper teachers should be able to understand these lectures without confusion. Just because there are lesser teachers who might be confused doesn't reduce the value or usefulness of these lectures.

If something hinges on "should" it falls at the first hurdle. I'm interested in reality, not a fanciful land without war or famine and where money falls out of the sky.


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Liszt was unable to film himself yet he was an exceptional teacher and broke new grounds in piano technique. You do not need to film yourself.


You missed my point. I didn't say you need to film yourself. I said that if a person can supposedly diagnose and prescribe from the mere visual exterior of the student (based on watching a lecture), they can do the very same to themself if they watch the visual exterior of their playing. Both situations are equally useful or equally useless, whichever the case should be.

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I disagree, with knowledge of many piano teaching techniques they are more capable to understand if they are applying new concepts accurately or not. Experience base is a vital tool not only with learning new pieces but also the area of teaching music itself.

Yes. But as a I stated, the Taubman school presents itself as a outside approach to regular experience. This both means that their years of experience may give them relatively little insight into it and that they may misunderstand it altogether, due to wanting to relate it to their OWN experience of very different ideals and belief systems.

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If you have a large experience base of teaching techniques this is unnecessary.


Again, idealism. If someone knows that much already, they barely need it. It's the ignorant that you need to worry about, not the smaller number of experienced and wise people.


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A teacher knows how to teach music to a huge variety of students. A student only knows themselves. Thus a teacher is much better equipped to understand these video lectures.

Again, it's idealism. More often than not a teacher is equally clueless about how to teach technique to a variety of hands. Those who need to understand technique the most are most likely to misunderstand it, by thinking that watching a DVD (that contains objectively inaccurate claims) will fix everything.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #135 on: February 09, 2013, 11:55:05 AM
Of course. Many methods say tone come from dropping the weight of the arm with no finger movement whereas others say the fingers should produce all the movement. Have you hoenstly never encountered such common contradictions? How many hands have the thumbs on the opposite side?
This is not a specific situation though. I was looking for a particular piece, a particular bar and commentary from both schools on how to execute that particular situation. It is easy to put generalize comments into contrast because there is no real examples to really test them.

I didn't say you need to film yourself. I said that if a person can supposedly diagnose and prescribe from the mere visual exterior of the student (based on watching a lecture), they can do the very same to themself if they watch the visual exterior of their playing. Both situations are equally useful or equally useless, whichever the case should be.
How else can you tell if a student is technically capable if you do not visually observe them? What are you trying to say about videoing?


But as a I stated, the Taubman school presents itself as a outside approach to regular experience.
But what they say doesn't mean it has to be the truth and it isn't. Hanon says if you play all of his exercises you will be equipped to play a vast majority of the repertoire out there.

Again, idealism. If someone knows that much already, they barely need it. It's the ignorant that you need to worry about, not the smaller number of experienced and wise people.
A trained teacher all have this experience though and if you are interested in your teaching profession you also go ahead and learn as much that is out there, you can never stop learning. If you become complacent then you might indeed become an inferior teacher. Although if what works works, then it might be useless to learn more, it all depends, but those who are interested in teaching would be interested in many subjects of teaching, that is a natural reaction.

More often than not a teacher is equally clueless about how to teach technique to a variety of hands. Those who need to understand technique the most are most likely to misunderstand it, by thinking that watching a DVD (that contains objectively inaccurate claims) will fix everything.
I do not see any evidence of this in the industry. If a teacher is clueless about how to teach a variety of hands then they are not a proper teacher. Sure there are many people who are not trained but this irrelevant, the video lectures still are useful.

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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #136 on: February 09, 2013, 12:22:40 PM
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This is not a specific situation though. I was looking for a particular piece, a particular bar and commentary from both schools on how to execute that particular situation. It is easy to put generalize comments into contrast because there is no real examples to really test them.

? Take any example you like. There's a scarcely an example to be found where some regular methodologies wouldn't exist in direct contradiction to each other. How often have you heard those who preach arm-weight say to produce a fortissimo from within the hand (which is what I do for countless situations)? It doesn't need to be specific, when arm-weight methods are quite so consistent with their preaching.


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How else can you tell if a student is technically capable if you do not visually observe them? What are you trying to say about videoing?


Literally nothing. You have not grasped my point still. On what possible basis could you interpret it as implying that you can judge a student without observing them? Please clarify where that was either stated or implied in some way to you. I referred to both observing students and yourself externally and diagnosing and prescribing in the same way for each- not to removing grounds for external observation of either. The point remains that IF a teacher can pass on this advice via the mere external appearance of a student (thanks to a lecture), they are equally equipped do the same via a video of themself. Either this shows that you can go ahead and do it easily on yourself just fine  (based on the same external appearance that you have to judge a student on), or that teaching on the basis of a checklist is going to be very superficial (and hinge more on the teacher's knowledge/lack of, than on the method itself). It would be more harmful for a teacher to attempt to teach the method to many based on superficial understanding than a single student. Yet they make conflicting claims that it's fine for teachers to teach stuff (without any way of knowing whether it's actually understood properly, or even at all) but that it's wrong for a student to attempt to learn anything.

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I do not see any evidence of this in the industry. If a teacher is clueless about how to teach a variety of hands then they are not a proper teacher.

If you've never seen evidence of that, then you have a remarkably optimistic view of the ability of average teachers to train technique.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #137 on: February 09, 2013, 12:32:07 PM
? Take any example you like. How often have you heard those who preach arm-weight say to produce a fortissimo from within the hand (which is what I do for countless situations)? It doesn't need to be specific, when arm-weight methods are quite so consistent with their preaching.
Give exact examples if it is so easy to compare the two different approaches and being totally different with zero similarities.

Literally nothing. You have not grasped my point still- which is that IF a teacher can pass on this advice via the mere external appearance of a student
I still don't understand what you are trying to say. We need to observe the student visually or as you say "external appearance of the student" when making judgement to what needs improvement technically.

(thanks to a lecture), they are equally equipped do the same via a video of themself.
You mean make a video of yourself and use that to teach your student? It has already been pointed out that the lecture videos are more suited for teachers, so I still don't understand your point.

Either this shows that you can go ahead and do it easily on yourself just fine, or that teaching on the basis of a checklist is going to be very superficial (and hinge more on the teacher's knowledge/lack of, than on the method itself).
Who ever talked about teaching from a checklist? If you add many methods to your awareness of teaching this helps you teach the many various students you may come across. Not all techniques will help everyone equally, certain people react better to things than others. If there was a single method that worked for everyone then it would already be well known as being the only source. The fact is that everyone has their own two hands and mind and personality to deal with. A teacher who teaches many variation of student would find it useful to also know a large variation of teaching methods. If that teacher prefers to specialize with one type then that is ok but there are teachers who are interested in the art of teaching and the many ways in which to approach it.

If you've never seen evidence of that, then you have a remarkably optimistic view of the ability of average teachers to train technique.
I am not the kind of teacher who says most teachers are bad because I don't know most teachers but I do know a whole lot of professional ones and none of them are confused about teaching multiple hands.

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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #138 on: February 09, 2013, 12:39:40 PM
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Give exact examples if it is so easy to compare the two different approaches and being totally different with zero similarities.

This is plain silly. Choose any fortissimo chord in the piano repertoire. When arm-weight schools always preach stable fingers and tone-production with gravity for all loud playing (and when others believe that any fortissimo should be possible from the hand, with arm weight being only an option), to ask for a specific example is quite baffling. It's like wanting to know which particular factory a can of coca-cola came from.

Find me an armweight teacher who has EVER suggested that a single FF chord is produced via finger movement (minus active armweight) and I might see your point. This is universal and does not require specifics- because EVERY FF chord can be used for example purposes. Pick whichever you like.



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I still don't understand what you are trying to say. We need to observe the student visually or as you say "external appearance of the student" when making judgement to what needs improvement technically.


I have not the slightest idea as to what point you are making or where I suggested otherwise. I'd appreciate a direct quote of anything I said that in any way contradicts the above statement.
Please reread my point. I've been totally explicit already and see no value in repeating myself further.

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You mean make a video of yourself and use that to teach your student? It has already been pointed out that the videos are more suited for teachers, so I still don't understand your point.
Who ever talked about teaching from a checklist?

We're referring to how the DVD supposedly tells teachers how to diagnose and prescribe. The method does not tell them to improvise their approach or to mix and match with other approaches they learned, with their own wisdom.

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If you add many methods to your awareness of teaching this helps you teach the many various students you may come across. Not all techniques will help everyone equally, certain people react better to things than others. If there was a single method that worked for everyone then it would already be well known as being the only source. The fact is that everyone has their own two hands and mind and personality to deal with. A teacher who teaches many variation of student would find it useful to also know a large variation of teaching methods. If that teacher prefers to specialize with one type then that is ok but there are teachers who are interested in the art of teaching and the many ways in which to approach it.


Again, who argued otherwise? You seem to be arguing about what is good in general teaching. I'm on a different page. I'm criticising what Taubman sets out on its own terms- not giving my beliefs on what makes for effective teaching in general.

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I am not the kind of teacher who says most teachers are bad because I don't know most teachers but I do know a whole lot of professional ones and none of them are confused about teaching multiple hands.

I'll agree to differ.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #139 on: February 09, 2013, 12:48:14 PM
This is plain silly.
If you cannot give specific examples then its ok, we can leave it there, I am not interested in generalizations which are too open to misinterpretation.


I have not the slightest idea as to what point you are making or where I suggested otherwise.
Please reread my point. I've been totally explicit already and see no value in repeating myself further.
If you are unable to be more clear that is ok, we can leave it there.

We're referring to how the DVD supposedly tells teachers how to diagnose and prescribe. The method does not tell them to improvise their approach or to mix and match with other approaches they learned, with their own wisdom.
Someone who is mindful with their teaching however will be able to use tools to suit them, not just mindlessly apply them.


Again, who argued otherwise?
Good so long what I said is clear.

I'll agree to differ.
That's fine, there is always two sides to a story but I rather not think negatively and thus put question to a very useful resource.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #140 on: February 09, 2013, 12:53:04 PM
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If you cannot give specific examples then its ok, we can leave it there, I am not interested in generalizations which are too open to misinterpretation.


Every fortissimo chord in the repertoire is a specific example. What is hard to understand here? It's silly enough that you have to ask for "proof" that piano methods frequently exist in explicit contradiction. Take whatever one from Rachmaninoff's C sharp minor prelude, if that somehow adds something to a statement that encompasses EVERY loud chord already. Do you need know that a green mug is a mug, to know that it is green? To be specific is a tautology, when applicability is already a given. Arm-weight teachers always teach gravity for big tone. Alan Fraser for one, almost always focusses on how to produce the tone via the hand.
 


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Someone who is mindful with their teaching however will be able to use tools to suit them, not just mindlessly apply them.


Ironically, this is the inverse of what Taubman preaches- with it's strict methodology and unwavering stances. They don't encourage teachers to use their own wisdom with ideas that fall outside of their methodology. I don't think you quite appreciate what you are trying to argue against, as you keep presenting points I agree with entirely, in the mistaken belief that they conflict with my view. I'm arguing against Taubman- ON THE TERMS IT SETS OUT, not presenting its arguments as being my personal belief system. Our personal beliefs on what is good teaching is a separate argument from the self-contradictions of what Taubman sets out.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #141 on: February 09, 2013, 01:00:25 PM

Every fortissimo chord in the repertoire is a specific example. What is hard to understand here? Take whatever one from Rachmaninoff's C sharp minor prelude, if that somehow adds something to a statement that encompasses EVERY loud chord already. Do you need know that a green mug is a mug, to know that it is green? To be specific is a tautology.
I'm sorry but I do not see two schools of through being applied to a specific bar or phrase situation with explaination how teach would exactly go about challenging the situation. It is important to reference all comments to the actual source of their teaching manuals. 


Ironically, this is the inverse of what Taubman preaches- with it's strict methodology and unwavering stances. They don't encourage teachers to use their own wisdom with ideas that fall outside of their methodology. I don't think you quite appreciate what you are trying to argue against, as you keep presenting points I agree with entirely, in the mistaken belief that they conflict with my view. I'm arguing against Taubman- ON THE TERMS IT SETS OUT, not presenting its arguments as being my personal belief system.
Again it doesn't matter what a school of thought says, it can say whatever it likes about its method but a learned teacher will understand how to apply it under their own terms.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #142 on: February 09, 2013, 01:13:32 PM
I'm sorry but I do not see two schools of through being applied to a specific bar or phrase situation with explaination how teach would exactly go about challenging the situation. It is important to reference all comments to the actual source of their teaching manuals.  

Compare Alan Fraser's writings on fortissimo chords to any arm-weight teacher then. If you sincerely feel a need to dispute the notion that teaching methods ever argue explicit opposites for countless specific cases, I have not the slightest interest in bothering to argue any further against such a remarkable view. Requiring a "source" to prove how many polar opposites different teaching styles apply in identical scenarios is like demanding paperwork to "prove" that there are people with different colour eyes (and then rejecting a source about how genetics produce different eye colours in the whole population, because it didn't contain any specific examples of mere individuals with different eye colours). I'm not going to go any further to prove that 1+1=2.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #143 on: February 09, 2013, 01:23:49 PM
I'm sorry but I do not see two schools of through being applied to a specific bar or phrase situation with explaination how teach would exactly go about challenging the situation. It is important to reference all comments to the actual source of their teaching manuals.  

Again it doesn't matter what a school of thought says, it can say whatever it likes about its method but a learned teacher will understand how to apply it under their own terms.

I think requiring a specific chord, bar, or fragment in music goes too far. To see what N. means, please have a look at The Arm Weight Debate between Raymond Banning and Alan Fraser. Prepare popcorn and a drink first...

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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #144 on: February 09, 2013, 01:25:32 PM
I think requiring a specific chord, bar, or fragment in music goes too far. To see what N. means, please have a look at
The Arm Weight Debate between Raymond Banning and Alan Fraser[/url].

Paul
Personally I do not see it as going too far myself and I have all the right to ask for specifics. If it is not given then I'll end my discussion. I don't deal with vagueness.

The link also provides no specific piece under examination. They throw generalisations at pieces but never take a bar under the microscope. If they do that they may find they are not so different.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #145 on: February 09, 2013, 01:36:26 PM
Personally I do not see it as going too far myself and I have all the right to ask for specifics. If it is not given then I'll end my discussion. I don't deal with vagueness.


You seem to be confusing the concept of vagueness with that of being unequivocally absolute. There is no vagueness in the unequivocal statement that ALL traditional armweight teachers preach static fingers and arm pressure for ALL loud chords. I do not. I favour quality of hand action and awareness of what is possible without arm pressure. Vagueness is lack of clarity- not a declaration of universal applicability in any loud chords. Armweight teachers are unequovical about fingers that only support for big sounds. I teach fingers as the primary instigator and the arm as altogether optional as a direct source of energy.

If you sincerely feel that there is value in trying to argue that there are no conflicting views in ideas piano technique, I'd stop to think a little less about the personal feud that you perceive against me and instead consider whether you really want portray yourself to the forum as possessing such a bizarre view.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #146 on: February 09, 2013, 01:38:30 PM
Personally I do not see it as going too far myself and I have all the right to ask for specifics. If it is not given then I'll end my discussion. I don't deal with vagueness.

The link also provide no specific piece under examination. They throw generalisations at pieces but never take a bar under the microscope. If they do that they may find they are not so different.

Giving details with one specific piece, bar or chord distracts attention from what N. is actually saying.

Paul
Account discontinued.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #147 on: February 09, 2013, 01:39:55 PM
I'm sorry if you do not give me a specific example to study then it is vague. If it is all open and easy to determine then it should be easy to take one single phrase of specific music and analyze how each does it EXACTLY. My argument is that both are not 100% different with no similarities, this in turn highlights the fact that a teacher may learn many methods of teaching and be able to understand them because there is a connection between all of them.
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #148 on: February 09, 2013, 01:40:45 PM
Giving details with one specific piece distracts attention from what N. is actually saying.

Paul

Not only that but it's already been encompassed by what I've said- making it a pure tautology. Nobody needs to know whether something that is green happens to be an apple or a blade of grass- if the relevant issue is whether it's green or not.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Training for faster fingers
Reply #149 on: February 09, 2013, 01:42:07 PM
Giving details with one specific piece, bar or chord distracts attention from what N. is actually saying.

Paul
You are welcome to that opinion. It however does not distract from what I would like to see one iota which is just as valuable in this discussion.
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