Piano Forum

Topic: Playing pieces out of my league.  (Read 3411 times)

Offline iancollett6

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Playing pieces out of my league.
on: January 30, 2013, 05:03:53 AM
Hello,
   I enjoy trying to play music that I love and as a result the pieces are often very difficult. Is there any harm in playing songs that are out of my league? Given enough time and the freedom to play at a slower tempo than what would be expected of that piece, I can often come up with a result that sounds not unpleasant!
 How do I know if a song is beyond my abilites?
    Thanks.
"War is terrorism by the rich and terrorism is war by the poor." Peter Ustinov

Offline j_menz

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10148
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 05:29:07 AM
Well, there is one risk, and two cautions:

The risk is that you will try and play pieces that demand a certain technique or even a range of techniques if you are to play them without injuring yourself.  This is not to be taken lightly as such injuries are very real and can seriously impact on not only your future ability to play but also other aspects of your life.

The first caution is that playing pieces well out of your league may in fact be a slower path to being able to play them than tackling pieces closer to your present ability.  The analogy I like to use is that the quickest path to the roof is a ladder, not practicing jumping.

The second caution is that if you learn them with mistakes or technical inefficiencies, these can be extremely difficult to get rid of late. I did a few pieces like this earlier in my life and I still have much more trouble with them than pieces around the same level I didn't do "too early".

That said, provided you are careful about what you are trying to achieve and don't imprint bad habits or sustain injuries, there is no harm and much good to be had by sometimes having a go at such pieces.  It's really a matter of balance, though, and you should spend more of your time on pieces within your grasp. Patience isn't called a virtue for nothing, and will get you there faster in the end.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8211
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 05:45:08 AM
I think I am doing this all the time, with the acceptance of my teacher.Whenever we try pieces that are technically more to my abilities I tend to loose my motivation. Practicing becomes mindless trilling. Unless the piece is muscially really nice.

I don't think there's any harm unless you force is (play too fast or too heavy or strech too much) or learn bad habits trying to execute something you can't really do. So with a teacher it should be fine. And frankly, without a teacher one might learn bad habits with easier pieces as well. Even if you won't get the piece technically right you get practice in reading and interpreting the scores.

I think the piece is too difficult if after working on it the way you normally would in small sections, slowly, hand separate and so on, you don't see any improvement and it doesn't feel any easier even after days/weeks of work. Or if most bars are simply impossible to execute. This is what I experienced when looking at the Chopin etude 10-2 for example, every single measure is a nightmare  :(

If there's an impossible section, it's up to you if you feel it's ok to skip it or change it. I look at most of my pieces still as learning material, so I don't mind that much if I learn only parts of the piece. I might play half and then we decide that it would take too long to complete the whole thing because it's so much above my general ability and move on. I rather do that than play it in a way that doesn't meet my standard. But that's just me.

Offline iancollett6

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 08:21:58 AM
Thankyou for your responses. Outin, I noticed you are working on Chopin Nocturne 72 no.1. I myself am slowly chipping away at that piece. Out of interest, would you consider that piece "physically" demanding for someone who has been playing for about 5 years, such as myself?
 My teacher is also happy with my selections, so I guess Im putting trust in her opinions. Thanks for your help.
  iancollett6
"War is terrorism by the rich and terrorism is war by the poor." Peter Ustinov

Offline hfmadopter

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2272
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
Thankyou for your responses. Outin, I noticed you are working on Chopin Nocturne 72 no.1. I myself am slowly chipping away at that piece. Out of interest, would you consider that piece "physically" demanding for someone who has been playing for about 5 years, such as myself?
 My teacher is also happy with my selections, so I guess Im putting trust in her opinions. Thanks for your help.
  iancollett6

I don't want to answer for outin but just wanted to say first that that is a very beautiful nocturne. One challenge in any Chopin beyond physical challenges of playing the notes is to get the feeling from within in tune with his works. This piece requires that. Anyone eventually will get the notes working but then putting enough emotion into the piece is something that comes from within.

That's all I wanted to say and will let anyone else instruct you as to how your level of playing fits the piece..
Depressing the pedal on an out of tune acoustic piano and playing does not result in tonal color control or add interest, it's called obnoxious.

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1597
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 04:52:09 PM
Well, there is one risk, and two cautions:

The risk is that you will try and play pieces that demand a certain technique or even a range of techniques if you are to play them without injuring yourself.  This is not to be taken lightly as such injuries are very real and can seriously impact on not only your future ability to play but also other aspects of your life.


I've heard many people say this sort of thing. Maybe I'm just not maniacal enough about the piano, but it's very hard for me to imagine injuring myself at the piano. If something is uncomfortable for more than a few minutes, I just stop and try another approach. I can imagine getting mighty frustrated trying to play the Hammerklavier, but I just can't see hurting myself trying. I'm working on Chopin Op. 10/1 and 10/12 - they are at the upper limit of my technique, but practicing them doesn't hurt at all. Maybe you have to really believe  in "no pain, no gain" and push through a lot of pain in order to do real damage to yourself.

Offline p2u_

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1214
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
[...]it's very hard for me to imagine injuring myself at the piano. [...] I'm working on Chopin Op. 10/1 and 10/12 - they are at the upper limit of my technique, but practicing them doesn't hurt at all. [...]

If you already have the right approach to technique, then they will not hurt you, but please remember that when the Chopin etudes op. 10 first appeared, the older generation didn't understand how to play them, and the German critic Ludwig Rellstab wrote: "Those who have distorted fingers may put them right by practicing these studies; but those who have not, should not play them, at least, not without having a surgeon at hand." He may have referred especially to op. 10 no 2...

Paul
Account discontinued.
No more pearls before swine...

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1597
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 06:09:51 PM
p2u,

Yes, I'm sure the Chopin Etudes seemed quite diabolical when first published (though, in fact the two I've been working on seem, if anything, more comfortable to play than other pieces which sound less difficult). I think my point about injuring yourself by practicing is that it seems to me that to do real damage to yourself you must have:

1. A very clear, distinct, and even dogmatic idea about the mechanics of piano playing that you should use.

2. Such commitment to that idea that you are willing to disregard the plain evidence coming from your suffering body.

3. Enough determination and dedication to persist in spite of the increasing pain.

Without those traits, it's hard for me to see how you can hurt yourself.

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8211
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 06:11:27 PM
Outin, I noticed you are working on Chopin Nocturne 72 no.1. I myself am slowly chipping away at that piece. Out of interest, would you consider that piece "physically" demanding for someone who has been playing for about 5 years, such as myself?
 My teacher is also happy with my selections, so I guess Im putting trust in her opinions. Thanks for your help.
 

Although I just started it this week I cannot see how the Nocturne would be physically so demanding (if you have adult size hands). It is slow and at least for me the only real physical problem are the right hand octave sections. But we are working on them and I see a little improvement. And of course the fast runs and trills on the 3rd page but I will cross that bridge later...

As hfmadopter wrote the difficulties are more musical. But if you have played for 5 years you are much more advanvced than me anyway :)

EDIT:
Looking at your signature I think we might not be talking about the same piece? Mine is the posthumous one in e-minor...

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8211
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 06:17:40 PM

Yes, I'm sure the Chopin Etudes seemed quite diabolical when first published (though, in fact the two I've been working on seem, if anything, more comfortable to play than other pieces which sound less difficult). I think my point about injuring yourself by practicing is that it seems to me that to do real damage to yourself you must have:

1. A very clear, distinct, and even dogmatic idea about the mechanics of piano playing that you should use.

2. Such commitment to that idea that you are willing to disregard the plain evidence coming from your suffering body.

3. Enough determination and dedication to persist in spite of the increasing pain.

Without those traits, it's hard for me to see how you can hurt yourself.

Unfortunately it just isn't so. I have had nerve damage twice and I never felt real pain, just a slight discomfort. It appeared very suddenly without much warning and took 1-2 weeks to clear. I learned my lesson but had I not I might soon be unable to play at all.

Offline p2u_

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1214
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 06:21:39 PM
I think my point about injuring yourself by practicing is that it seems to me that to do real damage to yourself you must have:

1. A very clear, distinct, and even dogmatic idea about the mechanics of piano playing that you should use.

2. Such commitment to that idea that you are willing to disregard the plain evidence coming from your suffering body.

3. Enough determination and dedication to persist in spite of the increasing pain.

Without those traits, it's hard for me to see how you can hurt yourself.

Sometimes people don't have 1, and they may not even have 2 and 3 before it's too late. They may just think that they have to stretch their hands to the maximum, or they may think they have to play legato where no legato is required, etc. Or they push heavily into the key with their arms. They may also be phrasing against Chopin's instructions and not understand what they're doing in general. While you could maybe do that in other pieces, Chopin will punish you for that. Something like 15/20 minutes (even without any hints at pain or discomfort while doing it) can be enough to get up the next the day and be forced to consult a therapist/retrainer to stay with him/her for years.

Paul
Account discontinued.
No more pearls before swine...

Offline iancollett6

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 10:15:31 PM
Looking at your signature I think we might not be talking about the same piece? Mine is the posthumous one in e-minor...


I will up date my signature, Im playing both 72 #1  and 27 #1,  thanks for your help mate.
"War is terrorism by the rich and terrorism is war by the poor." Peter Ustinov

Offline j_menz

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10148
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 10:52:58 PM
it seems to me that to do real damage to yourself you must have:

1. A very clear, distinct, and even dogmatic idea about the mechanics of piano playing that you should use.

2. Such commitment to that idea that you are willing to disregard the plain evidence coming from your suffering body.

3. Enough determination and dedication to persist in spite of the increasing pain.

Without those traits, it's hard for me to see how you can hurt yourself.

Agree with what's been already said, but I don't think you need 1 to be so dogmatic, just not have any good idea what you really do need to do.

It's surprising how many people manage 2 and 3, not so much with straightforward bloodymindedness, but simply in the expectation that enough practice will somehow make it OK.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1597
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 11:31:05 PM
Sometimes people don't have 1, and they may not even have 2 and 3 before it's too late. They may just think that they have to stretch their hands to the maximum, or they may think they have to play legato where no legato is required, etc. Or they push heavily into the key with their arms. They may also be phrasing against Chopin's instructions and not understand what they're doing in general. While you could maybe do that in other pieces, Chopin will punish you for that. Something like 15/20 minutes (even without any hints at pain or discomfort while doing it) can be enough to get up the next the day and be forced to consult a therapist/retrainer to stay with him/her for years.

Paul

Well, if you and Outin have seen it happen.... I still find it hard to believe, but that certainly doesn't mean it's not true.

Offline chopin2015

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2134
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 04:00:12 AM
I've heard many people say this sort of thing. Maybe I'm just not maniacal enough about the piano, but it's very hard for me to imagine injuring myself at the piano. If something is uncomfortable for more than a few minutes, I just stop and try another approach. I can imagine getting mighty frustrated trying to play the Hammerklavier, but I just can't see hurting myself trying. I'm working on Chopin Op. 10/1 and 10/12 - they are at the upper limit of my technique, but practicing them doesn't hurt at all. Maybe you have to really believe  in "no pain, no gain" and push through a lot of pain in order to do real damage to yourself.

I used to have pain such as tendinitis, from learning how to play fast, first time, and brutal passages with presto and forte...i have no pain now at all, ever...it just comes eventually if you appreciate the times u are away from the piano, physically. Also, know how to practice fast stuff, alternating tempos between fasr and slow, when slow concentrate on polishing(no pun intended...get it? Chopin? Polish?) Dont be afraid to push but not too much. Also, listen to j menz. U will learn alot working on the piece but it can be a little too experimental, and you might goof. Thats ok though!
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline outin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8211
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #15 on: January 31, 2013, 04:54:18 AM
Looking at your signature I think we might not be talking about the same piece? Mine is the posthumous one in e-minor...


I will up date my signature, Im playing both 72 #1  and 27 #1,  thanks for your help mate.

That's a bit confusing, I thought the numbers got mixed :)

If you can do 27-1 you can surely do 72-1, it's much less demanding physically.

Offline koopakool

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 11:10:20 PM
I've been practicing pieces out of my league for a long time, they're not so out of my league now because I practiced pieces out of my league

Offline iancollett6

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 10:53:20 PM
I've been practicing pieces out of my league for a long time, they're not so out of my league now because I practiced pieces out of my league

Bravo!!!
"War is terrorism by the rich and terrorism is war by the poor." Peter Ustinov

Offline danhuyle

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 11:12:50 PM
When you practice pieces out of your league, you're ultimately risking your time.

Ask yourself - is it worth investing time into it or is it better investing time developing the skills needed?

Perfection itself is imperfection.

Currently practicing
Albeniz Triana
Scriabin Fantaisie Op28
Scriabin All Etudes Op8

Offline koopakool

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 04:17:10 AM
By investing time into it, you develop the skills needed. Worse that can happen is that you play it half the tempo after 6 years of practice lol but time isn't wasted as work is always converted into long term pianistic skills. Czerny etudes are fine but you know...

Offline j_menz

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10148
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 04:37:15 AM
By investing time into it, you develop the skills needed. Worse that can happen is that you play it half the tempo after 6 years of practice lol but time isn't wasted as work is always converted into long term pianistic skills. Czerny etudes are fine but you know...

Nonsense.

Six years of misplaced practice can be worse even than six years spent doing nothing.  There can be injury. There can be the entrenching of bad habits that actually prevent progress and take time to unlearn and correct.

There is no automatic conversion into "pianistic skills" just by putting in the hours.  What and how you practice is what is important, not just time.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline sucom

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 08:36:31 AM
Nonsense.

Six years of misplaced practice can be worse even than six years spent doing nothing.  There can be injury. There can be the entrenching of bad habits that actually prevent progress and take time to unlearn and correct.

There is no automatic conversion into "pianistic skills" just by putting in the hours.  What and how you practice is what is important, not just time.

I think that if you ONLY play pieces that are way out of your league, then yes, it is possible that your practice may be misplaced. However, if you practise particularly challenging pieces IN ADDITION to regular practice based around your own standard or slightly above (we should always be just a little challenged!) there is very little possibility of injury unless you push yourself obviously way too far. 

Having said this, injury is always a very definite possibility.  I do remember practising the first Brahms piano concerto and Brahms obviously had large hands with a span greater than mine.  Stretching out the second finger so often caused me to damage this finger, and it lasted for several months.  It didn't stop me playing but it was a bit of a pain!  So you do have to be a little careful.  But I have found that challenging yourself, in addition to your regular playing, does indeed bring good results.

Offline koopakool

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
Re: Playing pieces out of my league.
Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 01:15:36 PM
Of course, I didn't want to imply to skip Czerny etudes, scales and learning of proper technique with a qualified teacher. I meant giving yourself big big challenges, push your limits, don't fall into contemplation! If you put all your time polishing the same piece over and over, never leave your technical comfort zone, imo that's a bigger waste of practice time. Athletes take some precautions to avoid injuries but sh*t happens when you're pushing your body hard. If you want to be safe though:  Richard Clayderman

For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert