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Topic: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)  (Read 2711 times)

Offline alpacinator1

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Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
on: January 23, 2014, 07:25:00 PM


I believe this represents a big improvement from the video I posted last month (and got no comments on). Hopefully you will enjoy. Again, I have no teacher so any constructive criticism or advice is very appreciated.
Working on:
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata
Bach - C minor WTC I
Liszt - Liebestraume no. 3
Chopin - etude 25-12

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 07:48:58 PM
First thing, don't try to change Beethoven. The pedal is to be takes very seriously.

Second, play hand separate. The accompaniment is really messy.

Thirdly, listen to this recording yourself. I'm not at all the type of pianist who uses one single tempo in a piece, but you change all the time. So use a metronome, until you feel the beat.

Honestly, I think this piece is far our of your league. And why don't you get a teacher? You're not really on the right track, and you need someone to lead you more.
There is too many things to say about everything - phrasing, tempo, technique, rhythm, character and general understanding... which always happens when the piece is too difficult.

He wrote so many beautiful pieces for piano, why do you pick one of the most demanding ones?

Offline alpacinator1

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 08:02:17 PM
It is important to point out that my laptop mic does a pretty awful job of picking up the lowest registers, so a lot of the bass notes sound a bit garbled. This is part of why the accompaniment sounds messy. I will agree that I'm also making a fair number of mistakes, though.

As for the tempo changes, I know I speed up or slow down in many parts, but a lot of this is because of my own feeling of the piece. I took some artistic license. In my mind, that is acceptable to do, since this isn't Bach or Mozart we're talking about. I knew it was far from perfect, but I'm surprised you found it that bad. It's frustrating to think that I worked so hard to learn this and it was all for nothing, since apparently I'm just not good enough to pull it off. I appreciate your honesty so don't think I'm attacking you or anything, but you can understand why I would react this way.

I stopped taking lessons a few years ago, and I find that I enjoy playing more when I'm self-taught, which is why I don't have a teacher.
Working on:
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata
Bach - C minor WTC I
Liszt - Liebestraume no. 3
Chopin - etude 25-12

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
It is important to point out that my laptop mic does a pretty awful job of picking up the lowest registers, so a lot of the bass notes sound a bit garbled. This is part of why the accompaniment sounds messy. I will agree that I'm also making a fair number of mistakes, though.

As for the tempo changes, I know I speed up or slow down in many parts, but a lot of this is because of my own feeling of the piece. I took some artistic license. In my mind, that is acceptable to do, since this isn't Bach or Mozart we're talking about. I knew it was far from perfect, but I'm surprised you found it that bad. It's frustrating to think that I worked so hard to learn this and it was all for nothing, since apparently I'm just not good enough to pull it off. I appreciate your honesty so don't think I'm attacking you or anything, but you can understand why I would react this way.

I stopped taking lessons a few years ago, and I find that I enjoy playing more when I'm self-taught, which is why I don't have a teacher.
To some extent I also change tempo in pieces I play, but you change every single phrase, and you change a lot. There is no feeling of unity.

And no, it's not because of the mic that the accompaniment is messy. It's messy because it's completely uneven, and not phrased at all.

I know you worked hard, but to pick something that's far too difficult isn't gonna be better just because you work hard. To learn a piece like this takes years of experience.


This is why this piece is too difficult for you. If you think this sounds quite okay, it just means that your ears aren't developed enough. They are just as important as your fingers, and none of them will develop if you play stuff like this.

Offline cabbynum

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
Pianoman53, I believe you are being a tad harsh on this considering the over all audio quality is complete crap. I cant provide much help on this other than the tempo, you do change it too much, I also change tempo sometimes, but only if it makes sense to the piece. Beethoven was a great improvisor and never played his music metronomically, so feel free to have some freedom with it. But dont take a button and sew a whole sweater onto it.

other than that i wont comment because the recording quality is pretty awful, which you admitted. So get a good mic or a half way decent one and re film and re upload. YOu will get better and more accurate feedback.

Congrats on finishing it though, that on its own is a big accomplishment
Just here to lurk and cringe at my old posts now.

Offline cabbynum

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 08:25:16 PM
Oh and the octaves, not the glissandi those were fine, try to relax your hand a bit more.
Just here to lurk and cringe at my old posts now.

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 08:30:22 PM
cabbynum,
One can clearly hear that it's too difficult. It's a bad quality, but there is still too much going on, that shouldn't go on.

I get the point of playing things that are slightly too difficult, to have something to aim for. But this is like being normally able to lift 5 kg, and suddenly go to 80. There might come something good out of it, but it will take so much more time, that it's probably not worth it.


Why don't you play something that you can learn well? Like his op 49 sonatas. The g minor is very beautiful, but far closer to your limit.

Offline cabbynum

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 08:51:05 PM
Im not dissagreeing that its too hard. I think it is too hard for him. But if he loves it a great deal and doesnt have anything to learn it for other than himself  I would say go for it, but maybe take a break and do some other things first. Like what Pianoman53 said, do an easier sonata, if you dont like either of those then try op.14 or op.2 no.1 or even op.90.
 
a friend of mine wants to learn the Bach Busoni chaconne, it is way past his level. He sort of asked for my help, so i told him to keep working on it but focus on these pieces first and gave him 4 pieces that he needs to help him with the chaconne, even if he does these 4 pieces it will still be too hard but it wont be impossible to play well. If he tries to jump into it right now it wont sound good for a long time and it will frustrate him big time.

So try that, keep playing the sonata but back off a bit and work on some other pieces. Ask around find pieces that relate back to needed technique in the Waldstein.
Just here to lurk and cringe at my old posts now.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 12:29:16 AM
I stopped taking lessons a few years ago, and I find that I enjoy playing more when I'm self-taught, which is why I don't have a teacher.

Alpacinator - you do realise that this forum is also full of teachers, and many of them (pianoman included) has some good advice and has helped a number of member here on this site.

He's basically just saying what your teacher would say, if you had one. I can even tell that the piece isn't in complete control by the way you play octaves - the hand looks tense and not relaxed. The middle 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers stick way out either implying that the fingers are tense and not relaxed, or you have very small hands (and no offense, but you don't look like you have small hands). I do - I have smaller than average hands for an adult male (but I haven't let that stop me yet).

The evenness of the semiquavers of course is shaky at best - and considering that the piece is full of them - it's not a good sign.

Work on really perfecting something, as I think that trying to perfect this would take at least a year.

Offline alpacinator1

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 12:42:54 AM
Okay, fair enough. It sounds like I should be practicing easier sonatas to improve my technique first. I've played plenty of sonatas though, including some of Beethoven's easier ones as well as Mozart, Haydn, and so on. I was not expecting to spend my entire life playing beginner pieces. It's not like I just started playing yesterday and decided to jump into this piece. It blows my mind that everyone here is in a position to say I don't know what I'm doing, since I've been playing for 14 years, ever since age 6, and have had plenty of people tell me I am very talented. Maybe they were lying and I have a complete lack of natural ability, or else I'm surrounded by a bunch of prodigies. If I truly am this amusical, I wish somebody had let me known earlier so I wouldn't have wasted so much time.
Working on:
Beethoven - Waldstein Sonata
Bach - C minor WTC I
Liszt - Liebestraume no. 3
Chopin - etude 25-12

Offline j_menz

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 02:12:24 AM
There are some good ideas in your performance, but not enough of them are getting through.

Firstly, as has been said, your tempo changes too greatly.  Most of the changes are because you are struggling technically, and you are probably not even aware you are doing it.

This movement is much much harder than you are giving it credit for, and there are some issues with your basic hand positioning that even I, who am not one of the resident obsessives about such things here, can see are seriously getting in your way.  Your hand position for octaves means you have to work way to hard, and it shows.  And you have fingers collapsing all over the place (bending back at the end and middle joints). This creates a lack of control, a lack of speed and much more work. I strongly advise you to do something about these or you risk damage - RSI etc - that will take time to show up and much time to fix.  I can even see that you feel the tension build up yourself, because there are occasions where you use a rest to shake out your hands.

In the bits where you do have the technique sorted, it really shows. You are much more fluent and expressive.

"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 09:15:43 AM
There will always be people saying that you are talented. When I was younger, I played at this  hall, for a bunch of very, very local politicians. I did not play very well, yet they were convinced that I was the greatest musician who ever lived. There will always be people who say things in subjects they don't understand.

You can either believe them, and be a star for month or two, before the next 'greatest musician ever' come aong and play Ballade pour Adeline with 'such emotion', or you can move on.

I'm sure you are talented, but you don't show it in a piece like this.

Offline total_failure

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
I have been also teaching myself mostly, and I have done exactly the same mistake in the past, trying to play Chopin Etudes and Rachmaninov Preludes. At some point I had to admit that those pieces have to wait, and realised that the fastest way to improve on the piano is to pick pieces of my caliber or slightly more difficult ones. This made studying much more enjoyable and paradoxically more efficient.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Sonata mvt. 3 (new!)
Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 08:54:29 AM
I have no teacher so any constructive criticism or advice is very appreciated.

This is not the advice you wish to hear, but I'm afraid you are not ready to study on your own without a teacher yet.

 :(

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