You can't have success with Chopin without an unusually responsive fourth. Why else would the greatest pianist in Europe complain about his 'unpracticed' fourth?
Chopin, the greatest pianist of europe?
Without a doubt, this has to be one of the dumbest suggestions ever made to improve piano performance. In answer to the OP's subsequent question, I will furnish the following information:There used to be a world class concert pianist by the name of Lorin Hollander who started his career in my home town of San Antonio at the age of 13. He could play anything.Then, he got the bright idea to play the Prokofiev 5th Concerto on a regular basis. Now, to cut to the present, in his own words, when he plays his fingers feel like pieces of broken glass.So, here is an example of how bone fractures ruined a well established career, and also left the pianist to live the rest of his life in excruciating pain.Man, you couldn't get a hand surgeon or an orthopaedist on this planet to support your idiotic, and very dangerous logic.
Actually it's a pretty established phenomenon. Bones become stronger by being stressed, not to the point of fracture (i.e. a visible major crack), but to where there are microscopic cracks. Osteoclasts (which eat away at the bone) clear out those cracks, then osteoblasts (which form new bone) deposits new bone material. The key is that the re-deposited material is stronger than previous. (Consider also that when a material is subjected to a distributed (i.e. non-point) force, where cracks formed indicate where the material was weakest -- that's why the cracks formed there and not elsewhere. So it's the weakest parts of the bone that are being replaced.) Over time when trained the bones are actually stronger than "normal" people's bones.Obviously this should be done carefully and gradually, since too much force (or over-use) will result in the bone breaking instead, or the introduction of too many microfractures for the bone to deal with (eventually resulting in a break). However, the bones of weightlifters and martial artists (that specialize in breaking) are measurably stronger than the typical fit person. Incidentally, experiments using animal models (read: lab rats) show that the bone is actually strongest roughly 1-2 weeks after the stress; dissection revealed that it's because during the healing process, the bone will actually first form a mesh-like network "scaffolding" around regions with a lot of microfractures while it repairs them, so the additional strength is due to that material effectively acting as a truss; it gets removed once the repair is complete, leading to a somewhat decrease in the overall strength of the bone.But while yes in theory you can strengthen your fingers by jabbing or slapping them at walls, it's not particularly germane to piano-playing since bone strength is usually not a constraint (and if it is, I'd say either you're overusing your hands or you should work on your technique, i.e. pressing into the keybed too hard). I think he was just being facetious; although this will increase "finger strength" in the sense of "how much force can the finger withstand before a bone fractures", it will do little to help "finger strength" in the sense of "how loud or fast can I play trills" which depends on coordination of the finger muscles which, of course, are actually in the forearm.
Why do people always seem to spell Zimerman incorrectly?
Valentina Lisitsa. - No one articulates better than her.
Good dome shape and flatten your back of your hand will provide STRONG backbone support for your fingers to generated EFFICIENT force.- To sum up: Hand shape is everything.
So articulation means "playing flat"? If there is anything else, I'm, just as awesome_o, completely lost.
I think what you've written here is quite truthful... I simply find Mme Lisitsa's playing to be a bit boring.
but you have to think, who else on this planet can achieve this level of "robotic-ness"?
I don't think her playing is at all "robotic" ... (as the person above you calls it).
- Just curious, what do you define as "interesting" or "boring" playing?
Aren't we somehow conflating mechanical style with interpretation here? I appreciate that mechanical limitations will adversely affect the result, but even with a technique that allows one to do anything, the result will be dreary if the conception is poor.
I don't really have blanket definitions of either. I've always considered this particular performance by Lisitsa, for example, to be quite inspired and thrilling. That piece really speaks to her and fits her temperment perfectly. Her performance of the op. 27/2 is very respectable, and I wouldn't call it boring (I would reserve that adjective for some of her Chopin). It's not at the level that I would be comfortable paying money to hear in a big venue. I quite like this recorded version:Kuerti's is also superb.
Just by comparing the first phrase (G#,C#,E,G#...etc) between Valentina and Glenn in moonlight 3:1. You can hear Valentina's notes are dense, solid, even, steady, articulate, with gradual crescendo in between EACH note, and her legato is flawless2. However when you listen to Glenn, although articulate, but the "density" of each note is less, and the legato and clarity isn't as well
But good technique and articulation is the prerequisite, before you talk about conception at all. You need to train your fingers to be ABLE to do anything you want FIRST, THEN you can tell it to do whatever you want it to do. And I think Valentina is the only few pianist that actually succeeds in articulating notes to a level that ALLOWS her interpretation and conception and ideas to transmit
You've missed a rather important step. You also need to make sure that "whatever you want to do" is actually worth doing. A bad idea perfectly executed is still a bad idea.
Also, a good idea badly executed is not worth even listening to - all it would sound is amateurish and unprofessional.
I would prefer listening to a good execution + boring idea over good idea + sloppy execution any day.
the quality and articulation of notes is judged universally by one standard - whether you can hear the notes clear or not.
Clarity is often a virtue, but not in every circumstance. And it is a matter of degree in any case, and so also a matter of taste (within bounds).
I think clarity is ALWAYS a virtue.
So I don't really know much about hand and arm anatomy, but I've heard people tell others who ask about increasing "finger strength" something along the lines of "you're stupid; fingers don't have muscles!" In the case that that is true, what exactly is the physiological prerequisite of really good technique? Like I watch Zimerman's interpretations of the Beethoven concertos; he plays extremely fast passages (and trills!) brilliantly and loudly on every key. How can I train my hands and body to be able to play like this, and more importantly, what is it that he is doing that I am not in order to achieve this?
He had hands like iron.
I have responded to this thread in the past, and I assumed it would subside just as other threads have done so. However, it has not.Therefore, as a classical pianist/philosopher, who as an empiricist puts forth logical empirical arguments, I proffer the following discourse:1) I am 62 years old and I have a relatively small hand with spindly fingers. Also, I have Psoriatic Arthritis, which makes extended practice sessions a non-reality.2) Until my hernia tear got worse many years ago, I spent the better part of 20 years working out a body-building gym. These days, I do a very short cardiac exercise routine, in my home, twice a day.From childhood, I played useless Hanon exercises, coupled with scales and arpeggios for 20 years. And, as was stated heretofore, I am 62!Lately, I am polishing up the L'Isle joyeuse, the Schumann Piano Concerto, and I am learning the Rach 2nd Piano Concerto, in addition to working on many other piecesAs a result, I am daily stressing my fourth finger, as well as placing the ulnar nerve in both hands in jeopardy. In that my coach is Thomas Mark, I take extra precautions with every keystroke.So, what I have added to my cardiac exercise routine is a ten repetition exercise with my chest expander wherein I grab the two handles with emphasis on the thumb and forefinger for half of the exercise, and then the outside of the hand for the rest. It has made a significant difference in maintaining and somewhat increasing the overall strength of my hand.My logic goes back to what a body builder taught me 30 years ago about steroids. He taught me that the reason most body builders get hurt who use steroids is that the muscle tissue grows much faster than the corresponding ligaments and tendons that attach/support them.As to the original point of the post, what that means is that you have to grow the corresponding ligaments and tendons located in the fingers of your hand at the same rate you are increasing the muscle strength of the lower muscles of your forearm. And, that ain't going to happen by playing any stupid exercise, arpeggio or scale.It can only happen through a combined forearm/hand action similar to what I do with my chest expander. Very old school musicians who were violinists or pianists used to rave about the benefits of working in their home gardens. This was a natural way of working all of these muscles, ligaments and tendons, along with the mental therapeutic value of this type of physical activity.My late piano teacher use to relax and chat with his students between lessons/classes while gently squeezing a palm-sized pliable rubber ball. It ain't a bad idea, come to think of it, because it involves a natural action of the hand. He had hands like iron.
My logic goes back to what a body builder taught me 30 years ago about steroids. He taught me that the reason most body builders get hurt who use steroids is that the muscle tissue grows much faster than the corresponding ligaments and tendons that attach/support them.
"Does Mark teach rotational motions, shaping, in and out and the sort? How related to the Taubman Approach is it? Just curious as I am a devout student of the Taubman work."Thomas Mark, author of "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body," is a former Taubman practice coach. He has taken her teaching to the next level by combining it with the training his has as a Certified Alexander Technique coach.His book is highly recommended by piano faculty members throughout the U.S., and his website www.pianomap.com goes into extensive discussions on the biomechanics associated with playing the piano.The major difference between his use of rotation and Taubman is that his point of articulation is the sternovanicular joint where the collar bone joins the sternum. This allows a full range of motion of the shoulder, arm, forearm, and hand, when playing.
"Does Mark teach rotational motions, shaping, in and out and the sort? How related to the Taubman Approach is it? Just curious as I am a devout student of the Taubman work."One more time: Yes, he does all of those things, and here comes some bad news: I have learned that most so-called Taubman teachers (those recommended by Edna Golandsky) do not strictly adhere to the Taubman method when teaching private students.Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am playing effortlessly for the first time in my life thanks to Thomas Mark, who as a PhD. Philosopher adheres to the pedagogical philosophy that one size does not always fit all.The first thing that he tells you in a coaching session is that your goal is to position your finger/fingers over the right note/notes by first positioning your whole body to be in balance and then moving your entire arm (articulating from the sternovanicular joint) so you can rotate, shape, or do anything else required of a particular passage.This nonsense of rotate the forearm and the rest will follow is like telling someone to stick their foot out and then start walking. And make no mistake about it, Thomas Mark will be the first person to give full credit to Dorothy Taubman for her immense contributions to piano technique pedagogy.
Finally the real the deciding factor! - ligaments and their poor blood supply.
The forearm is healed, and furthermore due to the temporary rest I forced myself to do, the tendons in my right hand have (at the age of 62) actually grown stronger allowing me to aggressively make the Schumann Concerto ready for rehearsal with my practice coach.Thank you, "thomasgill."