Any suggestions for mastering these kind of movements?

[jeronkey]

I'm trying, yet again, to get into my piano studies.



Does anyone have any advice for mastering these kind of movements, or practising them? I feel a little embarrassed, but my hand honestly doesn't seem to like those movements. It could honestly be just the lack of practice from my side, but it feels incredibly difficult to make the jump with enough speed, yet accurate enough to actually get the right notes.

I'm not afraid to practice and get it right by a couple of days of blood sweat and tears, so perhaps I'll get it right in the next couple of days with just a bit of blood, sweat and tears, but advice would be appreciated!

Any simple pieces with a similar hand movement to practice with would be appreciated.

[cwjalex]

i'm not sure there is any easy way to play things with big jumps besides practice.  the last recital i played temptation rag which had a similar left hand and had jumps as big as two octaves.  for me i just learned it through repetition.  i practiced it so many times that my left hand just got used to the distance of the jumps.  good luck and hopefully someone has something more useful to say.

[j_menz]

That's about as simple as it gets while still actually being what it is, I'm afraid.

Just practice as slowly as you need for starters. And concentrate on playing the (right) notes, not on making the jump.

[bobert]

One of my teachers called this working up one's "aim", i.e., the ability to judge various distances at the keyboard and land correctly.  It only comes through spatial memory and repetition.  What you can do is simply make the various distance motions without actually playing any notes and carefully get a feel for how far apart things are.  Then try it with your eyes closed and check yourself when you land, bass to chord, and then chord to bass.  Then eventually start playing the notes.  You don't have to do it at all fast to start with - accuracy is more important, but keep in mind that increasing speed will eventually affect accuracy at some point, mostly because of the increased momentum of the hand and forearm.

Believe it or not, these types of patterns are, by far, harder to play in mostly white-note keys like C, G, A minor, etc.  When there are black keys, it is much easier to both find the right bass note and grab the chord.

Also, I always recommend, if at all possible, to play the bass with the pinky and usually use the 4th finger on the bottom of the chord, as this frees the pinky to already begin stretching to find the next bass note (and also somewhat shortens the distance between bass and chord by at least a couple of finger widths).

[outin]

Just a couple of things that helped me:

For me it was important to realize that I shouldn't focus too much on speed first when making these jumps, because then I start to hurry. Eventually you will move fast, but first one needs to learn to move to the new position fast but play slow, ie. move to the new position but not think about jumping and crash into the chords, take time to play them.

Also you can first practice without playing the whole chord, just two or even one note, still trying to keep your hand in the correct shape. That simplifies the task a bit and you can concentrate on the moving part without worrying so much about playing all the fingers.

[dima_76557]

Does anyone have any advice for mastering these kind of movements, or practising them?

It's a mindset.

1) Think the "jumps" in one direction (=left-right or base to chord) only. So, every new bass tone is always intonated deliberately (you don't jump on it but you prepare it very quickly) and then you "jump" to the right.
2) Take the bass note as an octave first (add your thumb) and see how close its chord actually is. It will also become a lot easier for your hand to "pre-feel" what's coming next because that's exactly what you need for "jumps".

[1piano4joe]

Hi jeronkey,

I'm trying, yet again, to get into my piano studies.




Does anyone have any advice for mastering these kind of movements, or practicing them?

Yes, I do.

I will tell you how I have practiced this configuration with excellent results on two different Brahms waltzes.

I only need to explain how to study the first measure. Practice each successive measure with the same exact method.

I work each measure individually until I have it and only then move on to the next. It actually doesn't take me very long with this method to get each measure down.

I play the bass note, the chord and the bass note. I count ONE, TWO ,THREE. I repeat this exactly one time only counting again ONE TWO THREE.

Now I do this. I play bass note, chord, bass note, chord, bass note counting ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE. I do this ONLY once!

Now I repeat the three part procedure again only faster. Usually just once as that is all I usually need.

Often, I reverse the configuration since I have found that it really, really helps.

This becomes chord, bass note, chord counting ONE, TWO, THREE. I repeat this also only one time. Then you probably can guess what's next right? I play chord, bass note, chord, bass note, chord counting ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE.

Get out the metronome and set it for half tempo. You should be able to play this method with ease at this tempo. If so, dial up the metronome to maybe 3/4 speed or more depending on your results. When satisfied go on to the next measure.

I do each measure individually for two very important reasons. First the DISTANCE between the bass note and chord is different and second the SHAPE of the chord and/or fingering is different.

I then go about connecting the measures. I take the last chord of a measure and use the next bass note of the following measure. I use exactly this same procedure.

I usually can get this left hand waltz pattern up to tempo in about 1-2 hours time depending on the length and complexity of the piece. Sometimes its octaves in the bass and sometimes I'm dealing with four or five note chords but the method is still the same.

Also, I sometimes do this: bass note, bass note, chord, chord. I have even played the bass note four times then the chord four times followed by the bass note three times followed by the chord three times and yes you guessed it the bass note twice then the chord twice then alternating.

This works like magic for me but your mileage may vary.

I wish you much success, Joe.

P.S. Don't sit too close as your elbow needs to be able to clear your body. Also, keep your forearm perpendicular to the keys and write in your fingering for consistency. In addition, I like to keep a nice relaxed hand that is sort of like dribbling a ball and just bouncing along with minimal tension.

I hope I have been helpful, Joe.

[Bob]

Single hand practice.  (Eye roll on that phrasing...)

Memorize it so you can use your eyes to see the keys for large jumps.

Feel the contour of the keys before you actually land and hit the keys.  The other fingers might not play a note, but they can help feel the black keys to position the hand. 

Use your sixth sense to nail the right keys.  You'll get it over time.  It's weird when you can do that on another piano, or when it disappears and you really have to focus (or you could just look at the keys in those times.).


Maybe play over chords in that key to help get your mind on the contour of that key. 

Be sure to notice which chord your playing and that the left hand is just playing that one chord.  (And the RH too...)  D Major... Root in the LH... where is else is it going to leap but D Major "first inversion" with the f# lowest in the next hand position. (not a real first inversion)

[kalirren]

The technique my piano teacher taught me for dealing with things like that was something he called octave spacing.  Consider the music in the following two staves:



They may look very different, but in terms of the hand spacing they are actually both the same pattern - the motion of the octave frames of the hand used to play the bottom staff is given by the notes in the top staff.  That motion is accomplished by moving the fifth finger where the thumb was, then moving the thumb where the fifth finger was.

Drill, therefore, as follows:

First, get used to how an octave feels underneath your hand - be it fingered 1-4 or 1-5 or even 1-3.

Then, between notes, get used to moving any finger where your thumb used to be, and moving your thumb where any of the outer fingers used to be. Sometimes I think of this more as -replacing- one of the fingers with the thumb, or vice versa, as it helps cut down on unnecessary movement.  Ideally, practice this without looking at the keyboard (drill with lights off if necessary).

Then, while moving your hands in octaves, just learn to play other chords or single notes instead of playing the octaves.

[lostinidlewonder]

.... you can first practice without playing the whole chord, just two or even one note, still trying to keep your hand in the correct shape. That simplifies the task a bit and you can concentrate on the moving part without worrying so much about playing all the fingers.

Good answer and something I use all the time with students. Simplify then add the rest.