Piano Forum

Topic: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -  (Read 2983 times)

Offline panolof

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
on: June 16, 2015, 12:44:50 AM
This is my first post   ;D, although I've used this site countless times before.
I'd like to thank those of you giving your time to help other musicians like me  ;) .  And I Hope you enjoy the video.

I'd like constructive criticism, especially on a technical level, a sense of musical(interpretation) would also be great as I'm rather clueless. I have a teacher who is inclined more to technical playing
through emotion. I feel I don't have an overall sense of the piece - it's fragmented.
I will be performing this at a national competition later this year.
With your help, i'd like to dominate the competition  ;), I will definitely give special mention of this site and certain members if I were to win   ;)
Have a great day  :)
And I'll try my best to return any questions.
Enjoy the music (Music brings meaning to the soul - I lost my dad recently and music has been a huge help.)
Link :https://youtu.be/T-_YhvB-eas

Offline michael_sayers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1251
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 10:16:25 AM
I lost my dad recently and music has been a huge help.

Link :https://youtu.be/T-_YhvB-eas
Hi Panolof,

I am sorry about your loss.

For a link you can just post the address like this and it links here automatically:




Mvh,
Michael

Offline panolof

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #2 on: June 16, 2015, 01:01:39 PM
Hello Michael

I'd just like to thank you for showing me how to post a link.

Any pointers on practising the ballade without even looking at the video?

Thanks again

Pano

Offline michael_sayers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1251
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 09:51:50 AM
Hi Panolof,

It is hard to do that through message board posts.

Don't take this in a negative way, but if it were up to me I would put you on a thorough technical regimen for two years with no repertoire.

Technique has to be first so that in practice one can focus as much as possible just on interpretation.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline panolof

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #4 on: June 17, 2015, 06:36:15 PM
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the response  ;). my teacher isn't the best in the game though he has a doctorates, I have a teacher on the side, my first teacher who studied in Russia and thinks the exact same things you think.
Technique is good, but needs work. Performance is non existent is her remark.
She believes I should work on Mozart's D minor concerto and a sonata by him.
My actual teacher wants me to play Beethovens third concerto after having played only 1 sonata by him. I need experience to perform these works. This ballades preparation was Chopin's op 10 8 and 9 études and Ginastrta Danza op 2 no 2.
I'll post these all in future.
Thank you for your message, I noticed I post this on the wrong forum. Sry about that.
But your response clarified something that's been sitting with me for a while.
Thank again
Pano

Offline pencilart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #5 on: June 27, 2015, 03:04:50 PM
Hello Panolof, good job tackling this sucker. For background, I do know this piece pretty well, I placed third with it in a group of 15 people.... they were all older than me... I learned it last summer. And I also know that although it sounds easy, IT'S NOT. I like Zimerman's recording the best, it's right here.
. Oh yes, and I got a master class with Sean Chen on it... THAT WAS COOL! Sean Chen placed third in the last Van Cliburn piano competition.

All right, let's look at the piece. For me the hardest part was (by F A R) from 6:24 to 6:31. You seemed to not have too much trouble with it, but you played it pretty slowly...  ;)

So at 5:00 this is (in my opinion) the most beautiful part of the song. It should be played gracefully, not chunkily. This part isn't too hard, practice it 5 times a day for a week and you'll have it down. Play it softer and more legato. What Mr. Chen told me at this part was to emphasize the bottom note of the left hand at 5:07. The audience expects you to have a simple closing, but then you have one more flourish with the right hand before doing that, and the bass notes in the left hand sets that up. Don't neglect them.

At 5:43, good job with the left hand. I just learned this left hand run part first when I was learning this piece.  I didn't have too much trouble with it with consistent practice, but make sure the melody can still come out in the right hand. This will happen when you are confident with your left hand.

6:12 is pretty darn hard, it seems to be the area you have the most trouble. Practice right hand alone. This is really hard for your right hand pinky, but MAKE THAT TOP NOTE COME OUT! It will sound SO good when this happens, it all comes together.

7:25 try to get this a little faster, same with 6:12. But pretty good job on this part. Remember that this is the melody you started at the VERY beginning of the piece. Tie it all back in.

And good job on the ending, especially those trills. Great.

So overall, nice job. Continue consistent practice - and you're doing great.
You might have seen one of my videos without knowing it was that nut from the forum
youtube.com/noahjohnson1810

Offline louispodesta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1077
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #6 on: June 27, 2015, 10:49:24 PM
This is my first post   ;D, although I've used this site countless times before.
I'd like to thank those of you giving your time to help other musicians like me  ;) .  And I Hope you enjoy the video.

I'd like constructive criticism, especially on a technical level, a sense of musical(interpretation) would also be great as I'm rather clueless. I have a teacher who is inclined more to technical playing
through emotion. I feel I don't have an overall sense of the piece - it's fragmented.
I will be performing this at a national competition later this year.
With your help, i'd like to dominate the competition  ;), I will definitely give special mention of this site and certain members if I were to win   ;)
Have a great day  :)
And I'll try my best to return any questions.
Enjoy the music (Music brings meaning to the soul - I lost my dad recently and music has been a huge help.)
Link :https://youtu.be/T-_YhvB-eas
I have always espoused teaching by example, therefore, as I have done many times before, I will link you to two recordings of this piece.  Please listen, listen, and then listen some more.

After that, do not copy, but instead bring your own voice to the work.



Parenthetically, I lost my father when I was 17 years old, and I am of Italian heritage.  It hurts like hell, does it not?

Good luck to you on your long and fruitful journey.

Offline werq34ac

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 720
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 09:12:30 PM
I'll type as I listen. I'm not going to mention the things I liked so I hope this doesn't come off as harsh

First section: Too slow for my tastes, lacks flow? Overall it's too straight, it needs more rubato and has to feel more free. Also check the rhythm in certain places. 0:57 is one spot.

Second section: Also too slow. Take more time with the transitions and let the music breathe. The climax 3:13 needs more energy: sound, time, speed, etc.

Third section: Need more time going into it. Your runs need to be more delicate. Again, you need to let the music breathe, more rubato, don't be afraid to take time. The climax at 5:00 was nonexistant, we need a sense of release here.

Fourth section: Your left hand needs work with the 16th notes, they aren't clear enough. Using less pedal might help in practice and performance? Your 16th notes in general are too "notey" and don't flow well.

Fifth section (Climax): Too slow, everything is the same dynamic, still needs more rubato, Remember that you are still playing melodic lines and so you need to shape.

In general: Too slow, not enough rubato especially for transitions, and needs technical work. I personally think you should have learned more etudes and actually some nocturnes before you were ready for this piece.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline panolof

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 08:35:12 PM
Hey guys
I'd just like to thank all of you for the constructive criticism.
Honestly I don't think I'd enjoy it if the piece was perfect and people can't/ don't criticize - I know it needs work, and this weekend, I'm sitting down and studying -exams, but also on the ballade, ginastera op 2 no 2 and Bachs c minor or d major prelude and fugue.(847/850)
Ill be performing these for a competition later this month.
Will post them up before them. And yes, I need to get into a routing of daily practice - that's the reason I struggle. I know there's so much to do, there's so little time, and I procrastinate a lot - the best combo😁.
I'm a perfectionist in everything I do, and there's always the risk of trying to be perfect - if you believe in God - no-one should try to be perfect. This I believe, and have seen the dark side to being perfect.
Musics a risky business, and I believe all these pieces are playable with my technique, it's just important to not "mindlessly repeat". This is something I've learnt from my teacher who studied under a student of Michaelangelis. He has his faults, but I believe that what he teaches is extremely useful at times. He has a lot to learn from his students, and i still have the world of music to learn from him and others.
The posts I've read make me smile more than posts that say: well done, keep it up.
Thank you everyone, I will take everything into consideration - well so long as procrastination doesn't get the best of me.

Offline pencilart3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2119
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 08:40:07 PM
Hey guys
I'd just like to thank all of you for the constructive criticism.
Honestly I don't think I'd enjoy it if the piece was perfect and people can't/ don't criticize - I know it needs work, and this weekend, I'm sitting down and studying -exams, but also on the ballade, ginastera op 2 no 2 and Bachs c minor or d major prelude and fugue.(847/850)
Ill be performing these for a competition later this month.
Will post them up before them. And yes, I need to get into a routing of daily practice - that's the reason I struggle. I know there's so much to do, there's so little time, and I procrastinate a lot - the best combo😁.
I'm a perfectionist in everything I do, and there's always the risk of trying to be perfect - if you believe in God - no-one should try to be perfect. This I believe, and have seen the dark side to being perfect.
Musics a risky business, and I believe all these pieces are playable with my technique, it's just important to not "mindlessly repeat". This is something I've learnt from my teacher who studied under a student of Michaelangelis. He has his faults, but I believe that what he teaches is extremely useful at times. He has a lot to learn from his students, and i still have the world of music to learn from him and others.
The posts I've read make me smile more than posts that say: well done, keep it up.
Thank you everyone, I will take everything into consideration - well so long as procrastination doesn't get the best of me.


Great to hear, panalof. Reminds me of the quote "Perfection Is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away". Hope you're doing OK, I'm praying for you every day, just thought I'd let you know. ;)
You might have seen one of my videos without knowing it was that nut from the forum
youtube.com/noahjohnson1810

Offline billyfisher100

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #10 on: August 07, 2015, 07:27:05 AM
This is my first post   ;D, although I've used this site countless times before.
I'd like to thank those of you giving your time to help other musicians like me  ;) .  And I Hope you enjoy the video.

I'd like constructive criticism, especially on a technical level, a sense of musical(interpretation) would also be great as I'm rather clueless. I have a teacher who is inclined more to technical playing
through emotion. I feel I don't have an overall sense of the piece - it's fragmented.
I will be performing this at a national competition later this year.
With your help, i'd like to dominate the competition  ;), I will definitely give special mention of this site and certain members if I were to win   ;)
Have a great day  :)
And I'll try my best to return any questions.
Enjoy the music (Music brings meaning to the soul - I lost my dad recently and music has been a huge help.)
Link :https://youtu.be/T-_YhvB-eas

Hi panolof,

I'm really sorry to hear about your dad. I'm glad you've continued with piano, as I'm sure it brings you a real sense of accomplishment.

On the 3rd ballade, all of the ballades are fairly technically demanding, as well as tricky to memorise at times (I've not attempted Op.47, but Op.52 and Op.38 are two of my favourites). I would agree with the poster above that you could do with a technique refresher after two years with no repertoire.

That said, I enjoyed your interpretation of the 3rd ballade. If I could give you some feedback, I would  suggest that you could work on the voicing and dynamics a little - particularly towards the opening, possibly ease off the LH a little between 1:07 - 1:32 (not sure of measures). Perhaps the pedalling could also be smoothened overall.

But a very good 3rd ballade and with a little touching up, it could be a very nice interpretation indeed!

Offline werq34ac

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 720
Re: Chopin Ballade 3 - Help -
Reply #11 on: August 08, 2015, 04:27:35 AM
Hey guys
I'd just like to thank all of you for the constructive criticism.
Honestly I don't think I'd enjoy it if the piece was perfect and people can't/ don't criticize - I know it needs work, and this weekend, I'm sitting down and studying -exams, but also on the ballade, ginastera op 2 no 2 and Bachs c minor or d major prelude and fugue.(847/850)
Ill be performing these for a competition later this month.
Will post them up before them. And yes, I need to get into a routing of daily practice - that's the reason I struggle. I know there's so much to do, there's so little time, and I procrastinate a lot - the best combo😁.
I'm a perfectionist in everything I do, and there's always the risk of trying to be perfect - if you believe in God - no-one should try to be perfect. This I believe, and have seen the dark side to being perfect.
Musics a risky business, and I believe all these pieces are playable with my technique, it's just important to not "mindlessly repeat". This is something I've learnt from my teacher who studied under a student of Michaelangelis. He has his faults, but I believe that what he teaches is extremely useful at times. He has a lot to learn from his students, and i still have the world of music to learn from him and others.
The posts I've read make me smile more than posts that say: well done, keep it up.
Thank you everyone, I will take everything into consideration - well so long as procrastination doesn't get the best of me.


I'm sorry to say this, but your technique and musical sense are a bit lacking to be playing this ballade; you have a lot of work to do, and you have a lot you need to grow as a pianist, as a musician, and as an artist, in order to play this piece properly. By properly I do not mean with perfection, I mean with musical craftmanship and artistry. These things transcend any perfection. If I were your teacher I would tell you are not yet ready to be learning this piece. If you still decide to go ahead with the Ballade, I will just say remember what it means to love and hopefully it'll reflect in your playing.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert