Another attack in Europe..

[ahinton]

Adhering as far as possible to the laws of one's adopted country (if one has migrated or emigrated to it) is of course a vital principle by which to live there but, that said, there is also the question of the extent to which migrants, immigrants and other citizens of a country can trust its lawmakers and those charged with effectively enforcing its laws.

Best,

Alistair

[iansinclair]

Adhering as far as possible to the laws of one's adopted country (if one has migrated or emigrated to it) is of course a vital principle by which to live there but, that said, there is also the question of the extent to which migrants, immigrants and other citizens of a country can trust its lawmakers and those charged with effectively enforcing its laws.

Best,

Alistair

Quite right (from previous post) -- it is not so much a matter of immigrants or migrants.  There are native folks in every country who are willing (or eager) to embrace terrorist means to achieve ends which they have to come to believe are desirable.  Again, that is part of human nature, for better or worse.

As to the quote immediately above -- oh dear, Alistair, did you really have to open that can of worms?  A good deal of the angst in many countries around the world today is due precisely to the perception by the people of the country that the powers who rule them are untrustworthy and regard themselves as above the law of the country.  Worse, it's not always a false perception...

[gep]

Rules seem to be bent to accomodate immigrants and blind eyes are turned to horrific crimes that are swept under the carpet and labelled as cultural differences.

Thal

The ruinous bit here is that quite a few politicians, for well over half a century now, and despite the Himalaya-sized mountain of evidence regarding its disastrous consequence, seem to consider immigrants as incompetent, weak halfwits who cannot be expected to understand, let alone follow, the rules and laws of the country they come into. That alienates immigrants from the resident populace, in that they are, from the moment they enter the country, off-set the populace they enter, making it impossible to (fully) fit-in and thus remain off-set, including following generations, unless they, or following generations, actually fight that system and force themselves into the resident populace by way of demanding to be treated, with regard to their rights and obligations, as equal to the resident populace, and held responsible for them in equal measure. That would mean, sadly, that they would need to fight of the ‘well-willing’ people from the populace who would, no doubt with all best intentions, try to keep them dependant, backward and useless. Sometimes, the worst that can happen to you when you have a social problem is a social worker. There was a time when the science of medicine decried that the best way of treating a festering wound was to add manure and such to it so it would suppurate as much as possible, so that the ‘bad’ was forced out. In politics, such seems to be the ‘cure’ of today, and what you get is a lethal social putrefaction in some quarters of the population.

“Wir schaffen dass”; how long before politicians at large will admit that they, indeed, made it the way it now is?...

All best,
gep

[gep]

Adhering as far as possible to the laws of one's adopted country (if one has migrated or emigrated to it) is of course a vital principle by which to live there but, that said, there is also the question of the extent to which migrants, immigrants and other citizens of a country can trust its lawmakers and those charged with effectively enforcing its laws.

Best,

Alistair

About as much as you can trust them with your money, I'd say. Now let's talk also about the sensibillity of those laws....

all best,
gep

[gep]

True as that may be up to a point, most of those who plan these attacks do so outside the aegis of such organised places, if for no better reason than to assist in avoiding the risk of exposure; these networks tend to work well away from the risk of being found out by anyone, be it GCHQ or the local Mosque - indeed, they'd be daft not to if they want to ensure the wreaking of the havoc that they and their colleagues desire.

Best,

Alistair

To that, I might add the *slightly*  scary fact, to name but one, of the 1.100.000 people entering Germany in 2015, of which some 700.000 did chose to not register themselves (either by entering a false identity, of by avoiding it altogether), and whose current location is thus unknown and cannot be traced. Now, what good reason could a real war-fleeing fugitive have to want to avoid being registered in just about the richest and most welcoming country in the whole of Europe? I do not now what the tally is of 'unregistered' refugess in the whole of Europe, but if Germany is a lead, that the total number would be a tad unsettling. Add to this the somewhere about 10.000 "ex"-Syrian Jihadis who have returned to Europe; how many of those, tarveling throughout Europe without the slightest problem, are working out their training and subsequent orders they got in the Islamic State? How many supporters do they have? How many would hide them? Help them?

Our PM told us not to be scared, "for we outnumber them". If 10 jihadis are currently 'at work' in secret in my country, then we outnumber them 1,7million to one. But those 17million of 'us' don't have bombs, those 10 of 'them' do. Scary? Hell yes! To be scared is a healthy sign of realistic thinking, I'd say!

all best,
gep

[indianajo]

Just to throw some cold water on the previous, theguardian reports the perpetrators in the Brussels event were natives. 
Culturally inaapropriate, but native born.  Just like our US perpetrators in Connecticut school and Colorado cinema shootings. 

[mjames]

Just to throw some cold water on the previous, theguardian reports the perpetrators in the Brussels event were natives.  
Culturally inappropriate, but native born.  Just like our US perpetrators in Connecticut school and Colorado cinema shootings.  

Same issue, it still has to do with immigration/migrant policies. Gep made a VERY good point about how this connects to how governments handle integration of foreigners. I'm in the camp that social and cultural integration should not be optional, but should in fact be necessary if you want to migrate into my country. Unfortunately some western European countries didn't think much about this at all (particularly Belgium and Sweden); they gave out passports and citizenship to people who could barely speak the host country's tongue, to people who didn't understand or worse even care about the cultural and social traditions/values of the country the migrated to. Before the migrant crisis, Sweden for example did give out residency, passports to ANYONE from ANYWHERE as long as they claimed asylum.

People are finally beginning to realize that not requiring foreigners to integrate has serious consequences, one of them being the creation of neighborhoods/districts that are socially and culturally isolated from the country itself. It is very important that both migrant and native communities make an effort to socially mingle, in order to facilitate social integration. Brussels didn't do this, and it is particularly why so many of the people, despite being Belgian national, are being radicalized; there's a good chance that they might not even see themselves as Belgians.

Second part is, the Belgian nationals have been confirmed to have been connected with several Syrian Jihadis. What makes this case in even more crazy is that several of these Syrians were in Syria right before arriving in Belgium, and what's even more crazy is that these people were identified by interpol etc as "ex-warriors" with criminal records! What's even more crazy is that they were allowed to freely move around Brussels and even rent a freaking apartment!

Faulty immigration control and policies has everything to do with this.

[indianajo]

Second part is, the Belgian nationals have been confirmed to have been connected with several Syrian Jihadis. What makes this case in even more crazy is that several of these Syrians were in Syria right before arriving in Belgium, and what's even more crazy is that these people were identified by interpol etc as "ex-warriors" with criminal records! What's even more crazy is that they were allowed to freely move around Brussels and even rent a freaking apartment!

I'd say effective policing would have helped. Picking up Syrian trained "tourists" would be the minimum.  The Belgian perpetrators made four suitcases full  of  explosive using acetone in an apartment.  in my opinion, all the neighbors that didn't report the acetone smell should be charged with conspiracy to commit murder.  The people that sold the acetone should also be investigated for not reporting. Anybody that sold more than 3 liters to any one customer would be a suspect.   The acetone link to making explosive has been reported for months.  Acetone stinks profoundly and uniquely.  You get an air quality investigation by police in this country just for using laquer thinner to paint your car, which is not acetone.  

[ahinton]

It remains the case that, whilst effective but not unduly overbearing policing and secutiry measures wuld have helped and will still do so, the fact that people based in the West - and not just first generation immigrants thereto - operate largely undercover from within Western countries as part of terrorist networks that are headquartered elsewhere; internet, email and other technology enables this in ways that would simply not have been possible just a couple of decades ago.

Anywhere might therefore be or become susceptible to the activities of terrorists; as to the areas of UK arguably most vulnerable to potential terrorist atrocity besides London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast (the seats of government) and major cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow because of their size and population density, perhaps the most obvious targes might be Cheltenham (home to GCHQ) and just up the road from me in Hereford (home to SAS). Glasgow, incidentally, has just become the venue for the fatal stabbing of a Muslim by another Muslim in punishment for having published Easter greetings to his Christian customers on Twitter; one might recall the old cliché once uttered by those who dislike the Glasgow accent that when a Glaswegian greets you with "good morning" it sounds as though you're being accused of something, but taken to disastrously criminal ends, in the sense that one had better be very careful what one says to whom or publishes for the benefit of whom in Glasgow...

Of course population movement has its part to play in enabling terrorism to thrive, but it's by no means the only consideration. By the way, someone recently joked on a BBC Radio 4 programme that sends up the previous week's news that it seemd daft for ISIS to spend so much money on surface-to-air missiles when they could buy up job lots of taser guns at the local supermarket for a few pounds apiece; I'm rather surprised that he was allowed to get away with that, even as a joke (and I've never seen such weapons on sale at my nearest supermarket)...

Best,

Alistair

[adodd81802]

.

[ahinton]

.

What kind of a response is that supposed to be?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It is the most sensible comment I have seen on here for a long time.

Thal

[mjames]

why did addodd necro bump my thread

[ahinton]

It is the most sensible comment I have seen on here for a long time.

If so, that says way too little for yours! Anyway, m1469 has made this very comment thousands of times, so there's nothing especially original about it!

Best,

Alistair

[visitor]

If so, that says way too little for yours! Anyway, m1469 has made this very comment thousands of times, so there's nothing especially original about it!

Best,

Alistair

.

.

[ahinton]

.

That's precisely what I was drawing attention to from m1469.

Best,

Alistair