Fantasie Impromptu as my first piece [audio]

[outin]

I'm going to post a video of the full piece soon. I put the thread up in the hope I could get some useful tips before I do. Instead I've mainly had a lot of tedious pontificating from people telling me what is and isn't a worthwhile way to spend my time.

The forum has been a bit boring lately with not much debating (at least for those who couldn't care less about brexit) so I guess we couldn't help taking the bait with this one 

I cannot help you for two reasons:
I don't like the piece so rarely listened to it and never bothered to look at the score. I listened to your recording briefly and there's surely things to improve but it's not as bad as some other attempts by inexperienced players I have heard.

I don't even try to advice people on pieces I have not studied myself. Experienced pianists and teachers are able to do that, I am not.

[kalospiano]

Please what?

please show me all the people that have learned "hundreds of pieces" in the first 2-3 months they ever touched a piano.

I express myself however I like without being edited by strangers thanks. I'm happy to give a different perspective which would be more beneficial to this pianists future rather than encouraging something that in my professional opinion is a time waster.

Silly me, thinking that you, just like everyone else, had to abide by the forum guidelines, which require you to be respectful of the other users. But of course, saying that someone else's approach is "stupid" is not at all a gratuitous insult, it's just a different perspective, right?  


Plus what are you talking about your top students for?? The OP only played for three months!!
Of course someone with experience is going to learn this piece faster.

The first time I played I couldn't even pass from a C major triad to a D minor triad without taking some seconds to adjust the hand. The first three months I managed to learn twinkle twinkle little star, happy birthday and petzold's minuet in G. Now, learning Faintasie Impromptu in the same period seems a much better achievement.

Actually 2-3 months for this piece is a good pace for someone with much more experience than that, let alone someone with zero experience.
Plus, now, with the hand coordination that the OP acquired for playing this piece, he will be able to learn simple pieces at a faster rate.
Seems highly efficient to me.

[vaniii]

So may I ask how long would you estimate it takes for an average student to gather enough of those tools to be able to do that? It seems to me several people here want to completely ignore this relevant question...

Two years.

Providing you do not waste time.

I had the privileged of witnessing a young girl (eight years) at the time perform in a series of competitions, she won every class she entered.  She had been playing the piano for four years and performed a large number of standard repertoire pieces (including: Beethoven Op. 13; Chopin Op. 18; and Debussy L. 66, No. 1).  She out performed a number of post-graduate and graduate students with her interpretation and confidence.

This encounter completely changed my perspective on piano pedagogy.  This remarkable young person exhibited only one trait: she did not waste time with fools errands (that is playing repertoire that was beyond her capability, or rather, not doing so before ready to do so).  My teaching has over the past fifteen years changed to accommodate this methodology.

Two years and you will be able to read and play fluently, providing you take the necessary steps (and practise regularly).  Another two and you will be able to tackle complex repertoire (perhaps not like Lisitsa, but you will get through it, with time your confidence will increase and so will the speed).

• Begin by learning scales and harmony, listening to what you are doing, and counting.
• Work on easy pieces (Czerny Op 599, 137 or 823), aiming to understand and play one or more within one week.  One of these books can be completed in 1 or 2 months, providing you work at the skill of reading and playing, not trying to master each piece seperately for show.
• After the concept of picking up music and performing it is understood, generally then you will be able to play and understand most pieces (within reason).

The most apparent hurdle in 'Fantasie-Impromptu' would not be the notation, but understanding the poly-rhythm.  Next is voicing, however this is a concept that should be introduced in the first series of lessons. 

Outin, the issue with most average beginner students (adult or child) is they do not have the patience to wait even the smallest period of time to build a solid foundation, instead they impatiently rush ahead to massage an ego "I can play X".  This is all very good in the short term, however, long-term it sets them up to fail.

There is no such thing as talent or innate ability; we all start with the same basic tools, however some use them efficiently, others decide not to.  This type of rhetoric regarding, innate talent, is used by people who want to lessen the obvious deficits in the efforts they exhibit and utilise; that is:

 "They are more talented than I am which is why I have failed to achieve the same result."

The problem with this is, we are not in control of other people, so it makes no sense to even consider their ability; it would be more beneficial the reflect on ones own efforts; eventually we all come to the same conclusion: "It is better to use the handle on the door, as opposed to try to run head-first through it".

I once gave a lecture to a group of aspiring musicians; in the lecture I mentioned that "when we practice we have endeavor to be as accurate as possible, because each mistake in practice is a practiced mistake in performance";  one of the more outspoken members of the audience spoke with me afterwards; he said "that is all very well and good, but how do us mere-mortals achieve this".  This person will ultimately fail and all they try to achieve musically, because they have already given an alibi to their bad practise techniques; that is "Its okay for me to practise badly".

In a similar way, you all are implying, "its okay for us to work inefficiently at the piano becuase ... reasons".

I'm going to post a video of the full piece soon. I put the thread up in the hope I could get some useful tips before I do. Instead I've mainly had a lot of tedious pontificating from people telling me what is and isn't a worthwhile way to spend my time.

Apologies Teddy, you recording is good, however you cannot improve on it without changing your approach to piano performance.

There are two camps present:

Those who admire you efforts because they could not achieve it in three months now, not to mention as a beginner.

- and -

Those who spurn your efforts because your methodology is flawed.

Do not take offence, it comes with the territory.  If you did this as a day job, you would face criticism at all angles, just look at the comment section on YouTube for any professional pianist.  The critique is always needlessly pedantic and quite irrelevant.

Your recording is good.  It would not pass a diploma in it's current state, but it would be a good point to work from.

[kalospiano]

The logic here is flawed.

Would you start learning mathematics with e=mc² ?

The logic is indeed flawed.
There's a general thinking that playing a difficult piece is somewhat separate from learning the basics.
Well, even if you decide to learn maths from e=mc² , you're gonna have to study the basics first: it's not like it's two separate achievements.

These basics do not necessary translate to "simpler pieces" in the musical world.

I cannot speak for the OP, but I too have learned some pieces, in my first year, that are generally not advised to first year students. Learning these kind of harder pieces, when one has limited experience, does not happen magically, it requires the player to go extremely slowly at first, carefully work on the fingerings, excercising the weaker fingers, taking special care for the coordination between the hands, etc. Aren't these quite "basic skills"?

While these would come immediately for someone with experience, they need to be carefully studied for a beginner. So, even when approaching difficult pieces, a beginner actually works on the basics in order to be able to play it.

[vaniii]

The logic is indeed flawed.
There's a general thinking that playing a difficult piece is somewhat separate from learning the basics.
Well, even if you decide to learn maths from e=mc² , you're gonna have to study the basics first: it's not like it's two separate achievements.

These basics do not necessary translate to "simpler pieces" in the musical world.

I cannot speak for the OP, but I too have learned some pieces, in my first year, that are generally not advised to first year students. Learning these kind of harder pieces, when one has limited experience, does not happen magically, it requires the player to go extremely slowly at first, carefully work on the fingerings, excercising the weaker fingers, taking special care for the coordination between the hands, etc. Aren't these quite "basic skills"?

While these would come immediately for someone with experience, they need to be carefully studied for a beginner. So, even when approaching difficult pieces, a beginner actually works on the basics in order to be able to play it.

Appologies, I cannot tell if you agree or disagree.  Please explain further.

[kalospiano]

Appologies, I cannot tell if you agree or disagree.  Please explain further.

sorry, I'm not good at explaining myself.

What I mean is that, for people without experience, learning a difficult piece is not separate from learning the basics as many seem to think.

It is my understanding that you don't advice novices to tackle advanced repertory, because one needs to learn the building blocks first.

But what I think is that someone without experience trying to learn advanced repertory IS actually working on the building blocks first. It's just that "building blocks" doesn't necessarily mean simpler pieces. It can mean a careful, slow study of every single note of the difficult piece they're studying, of the related scales, arpeggios, chords, of the interplay of the hands, of the rhythm, of the correct fingerings, etc etc.

In the end, if you take any difficult piece and you take just one single measure, you can divide this difficult measure into several basic, easy patterns that can be studied in isolation from the rest.

This way, even without working on simpler music, one is working on the basics at the same time of working on the advanced piece.

[dogperson]

Oh for Pete's Sake!!!  Hasn't there been enough snipping about whether this is an efficient use of time, and a good approach to learning piano?   There has been enough of this-- and someone should offer some REAL advice to the OP how to improve what he has actually done.  

For those of you that teach, what suggestions would you make in what you hear??
For those of you that play/have played the FI, what suggestions would you make??
For those that play MUCH MORE COMPLICATED REPERTOIRE, can't you offer a suggestion?  

Let's get over whether or not it is efficient--- there has been enough said on both sides of the argument and there is no point of beating someone over the head OVER and OVER again.   I cannot understand for the life of me why this sniping is continuing.... let it go and give some concrete help.

This entire argument has become quite sad..  

[vaniii]

Fine.

Please include the introduction; Chopin put a G-sharp there for a reason.  I insist you wait for two full bars as asked; it is a perfect cadence, and it is necessary.

The two bars of six-tuplet quavers on C-sharp minor in bars 3 and 4 set up the bed of colour that allow you to evenly set up the poly-rhythm.  Use this to make your pulse more even; do not skip it.

Your left hand is too loud.  Though there is a lot happening, it should not be this prominent; allowance can be made for first note on each group because it is harmonically relevant, however, Chopin does not state it as such.

Make the six-tuplets more even, currently you snatch them at the start of the bar with a distinct pause at the end of the bar.  This is due to the poly rhythm still not being a secure device that you can comfortably 'switch-on'; practice this slow with a metronome.

When the right hand takes over in the contrasting material, you need to make the tune more prominent:

- Firstly when it is on the beat at the bottom of the octave.
- Then again when it is syncopated at the top of the octave.

Be consistent with your tempo, if you have to slow for your climax, that is your speed for that section (introduction, and section A; not section B in Db major).

Do not practice it with rubato, apply it after the fact once you can play it securely straight.

---

Edit: I am not looking at the score; forgive any apparent inaccuracies, this is an amalgam of multiple editions.

---

Edit 2: The entire first section is suppose to be mixtures of p and mp, the only f, or perhaps ff is in the clamax which builds in waves in the preceding bars.

---

As stated your recording is good; do not take my critique or comment to heart.

[kuska]

Two years.

Isn't it a bit too idealistic?

Providing you do not waste time.

This.
I haven't taught piano but I taught a bit of something else when I was still a student. And provided parents made sure their kids keep on having their lessons with me they indeed made marvelous progress. However, in most cases they skip their classes and eventually drop out. This was even more typical for adults as they had no parents watching them.

I wanted to drop out when I was like after 4th grade of piano. My mother told me to persevere until I finish the primary school. I did it cause I had to and I've been thankful to her ever since I returned to playing in my senior year of high school. I only wanted to stop the lessons cause my friend wanted me to go out and I couldn't do that because of the lessons. My boyfriend's sister's kid also stopped after around 4th year of playing. I guess kids aren't the most persevere people in the world.

[outin]

Two years.

Providing you do not waste time.

I'm sorry, but you just kind of lost credibility in my eyes. I am not sure if you just made it up because you so desperately need to be right, or if you are delusional, but that is just a ridiculous claim. Assuming you do know the definition of average and that you interpreted my question correctly.

There are many claims in your post that go against what I know about psychology and education, based on research. Unless you actually want to discuss them further, I will leave this here.

[dogperson]

I'm sorry, but you just kind of lost credibility in my eyes. I am not sure if you just made it up because you so desperately need to be right, or if you are delusional, but that is just a ridiculous claim.

CAN'T YOU LET iT GO??   There is much, too much, insistence on this forum of being right, or proving someone else wrong. 

[outin]

CAN'T YOU LET iT GO??   There is much, too much, insistence on this forum of being right, or proving someone else wrong. 

What's your problem? This has been a very interesting discussion. For me it's not about anyone being right or wrong but being objective in the matter. I have no problem with people having different opinions, but that does not mean I should not challenge them when they are presented as absolute truths without actual evidence.

[dogperson]

What's your problem? This has been a very interesting discussion. For me it's not about anyone being right or wrong but being objective in the matter. I have no problem with people having different opinions, but that does not mean I should not challenge them when they are presented as absolute truths without actual evidence.

The Problem?  Everyone hear has ignored the original post which was 'how can I improve what I have done'?  This strayed into 'inefficient' and 'no, it's not'...where is the objectivity in any of this?   The posts are bickering and inflammatory...   and your post that someone has lost credibility is objective??
Hardly.

[outin]

The Problem?  Everyone hear has ignored the original post which was 'how can I improve what I have done'?  This strayed into 'inefficient' and 'no, it's not'...where is the objectivity in any of this?   The posts are bickering and inflammatory...   and your post that someone has lost credibility is objective??
Hardly.

"Credilbility IN MY EYES" is what I wrote. It is objective, since that is what happened. I was not trying to be mean, I was only being brutally honest.

I see little bickering and flaming here. Aren't you being oversensitive? If we always keep avoiding conflicts in opinion, how is anything ever going to change for better?

None of us are in charge on how discussions evolve, but if we don't like it no-one is forcing us to the thread.

[lostinidlewonder]

It makes little sense to evaluate this case based on your top students.

It is to highlight the waste of time investing months on a single piece as your very first piano piece, it's ludicrous.

You assume that all beginners are in it for the whole journey, but it seems it's not the case at all. Some people are perfectly happy to learn one or two pieces on the piano and for that purpose the tradiotional method is not necessarily the most efficient because of the vast amount of time it takes.

Not all beginners are in it for the whole journey but if you just want to play one or two pieces that is not something we should encourage, it is highly unusual, most want at least the whole journey that encompasses their capabilities. If someone learns FI as their first piece and does a good job of it then why don't they approach piano in a more constructive manner instead since they already demonstrate they have some capability. People shouldn't always think that spending months on a single piece is good for you or the norm.

Of course some of these folks may later realize that they actually want to play many more pieces than just a couple and in restrospect they might have been better off with starting lessons with you in the first place, but you really cannot tell this beforehand.

All students who have submitted to doing easier pieces with me admit that it has developed their abilities a lot more than frustrating themselves and slowly etching away at larger projects only. It is not to say we shouldn't study pieces we like but for your own good you must learn pieces that you can absorb at an efficient rate so you keep your practice method sharp.

Sometimes it's good practice to try to see things from the perspective of someone with a very different world view. I think it makes your mind more flexible when you get older

I've come across countless different perspectives in approaching the piano and I have come across beginners like the OP here who play a "difficult" piece and very very little else. I am yet to come across any which can prove that it is the best path for them, all of them thank me later on for showing them out of the darkness there lol! I usually let them learn their more difficult pieces or pieces they love to learn but at the same time they must learn in a more constructive manner otherwise what is the point in having a teacher if you use them to simply teach you how to practice pieces you like, you need to develop practice and technical method and it is not through playing only pieces you love.

please show me all the people that have learned "hundreds of pieces" in the first 2-3 months they ever touched a piano.

My students I teach can't be the only ones in the world, maybe not all of them can make hundreds in that time period but the ones who are talented have achieve it especially if they take on sight reading training as well.

Silly me, thinking that you, just like everyone else, had to abide by the forum guidelines, which require you to be respectful of the other users. But of course, saying that someone else's approach is "stupid" is not at all a gratuitous insult, it's just a different perspective, right?  

Stop making a storm in a teacup I am not going to change what I say just because you want to argue that I am personally attacking someone where it is obvious I am talking about their methodology throughout. boring!

Plus what are you talking about your top students for?? The OP only played for three months!!
Of course someone with experience is going to learn this piece faster.

It is to highlight the fact that if you are studying music in a proper fashion it is not usual to spend months and months on a single piece unless it is a large scale piece of which FI certainly is not. Why would I commend a beginner for studying single pieces in this fashion, it goes against my teaching ideology.

The first time I played I couldn't even pass from a C major triad to a D minor triad without taking some seconds to adjust the hand. The first three months I managed to learn twinkle twinkle little star, happy birthday and petzold's minuet in G. Now, learning Faintasie Impromptu in the same period seems a much better achievement.

It doesn't make sense to compare yourself to someone else, you at least achieve some skill sets what if you just studied one difficult piece and that was it? The OP is wasting time studying one single piece where they could really build their skill set quickly with smaller pieces and then tackle the FI with greater ease.

Actually 2-3 months for this piece is a good pace for someone with much more experience than that, let alone someone with zero experience.

I disagree with correct training if the FI is at your ability level you should be able to learn most of it within a week and then within a space of time after that it would be mastered depending on the individual. Some people even spend years to craft single pieces but the majority of the work can be done within a small space of time, you can chisel away at your favorite works for as long as you like but learn new music in the meantime.

Plus, now, with the hand coordination that the OP acquired for playing this piece, he will be able to learn simple pieces at a faster rate.
Seems highly efficient to me.

Of course there is nothing wrong with learning more difficult pieces but the problem is that the OP has admitted it is THE ONLY piece that they play and there is nothing else. This is a clear problem and to me it doesn't matter how well they play the FI, it could be the best playing in the world I would still lament why on earth are you not learning more music and building your skills. I've seen too many people improve a huge amount submitting to a bottom up approach, I've seen too many who chase only their favorite pieces and pieces that are too hard fizzle out and flounder about in snail like progress.

[quantum]

As an anecdote of experience, I too was presented with the bottom up traditional conservatory approach in my early years as a piano student.  Gave it a chance, but over time realized something was not sitting right.  The approach presented to me assumed what my goals were along with the time it takes to complete them.  Looking back, I realize that I was very goal oriented - I knew exactly the repertoire I wanted to learn but the conservatory approach wasn't taking me on a direct path towards my goals.  It was like saying: If you visit NYC, you must go to the Stature of Liberty, Times Square and Empire State because everyone else with a sensible mind does, and you should too because it is good for you and your development.  This is the prim and proper way to visit NYC and what all good tourists do.  No one would bother to ask, and if they did they would discover my interest would actually be in exploring the pipe organs of the city.  

Finding a teacher that understood my goals, and worked with them was such an uplifting experience.  Yes, it is possible to work towards the repertoire you want to play in a structured lesson environment, where the lessons were clearly directed to getting one towards one's goal in the most direct manner.  I was learning repertoire that interested me, and preparatory exercises for that rep also consisted of repertoire that interested me. Gone were the mindless exercises for the sake of exercises, and every new piece became an opportunity to understand and refine technique.  This goal directed training is probably one of the reasons towards my interest in researching and playing obscure music.  I really feel no need to do what everyone else does, and that training has given me the tools to explore my own interests.  

As it relates to the OP, leaps towards you repertoire goals are possible with the right guidance.  Finding a teacher that is a good fit is so important.  Although 0 --> FI is a rather extreme case, it is possible to leap with guidance.  

Not all students need the step by step approach.  There are those that can handle a large doses of information at a time.  There are students who are extremely self-driven and that self directed approach is essential to their learning.  It may be unsettling to some teachers, but there are students that are fully capable of constructing their own lesson plans - they just need a little guidance from the teacher.

Teddy, I know things can turn to philosophical debate here at times (it a rather beautiful thing about Pianostreet that most folks here can debate without devolving into trolling and below-the-belt hits), but a little grace and humility would do.  People here want to help, so just tone it down a little if you get upset.  You don't have to agree with what we say.

[teddy1324]

A lot of people seized on the 2-3 months, but I was hardly practicing every day and rarely for many hours at a time. Only recently, my desire to master, rather than just play (which I've been able to for over a month) the piece has me practicing daily.

Some people have totally ignored the context in which this piece was approached; I did not think to myself 'I want to learn the piano properly - and the best way to start would definitely be the Fantasie Impromptu because I have delusions of grandeur'.

My original post actually states the opposite - I started the piece as a slightly wacky attempt (for my own amusement) to learn something extremely difficult just to see what would happen, with the expectation that I would fail miserably. It was only when I realised I wasn't failing miserably and could play the whole piece through without difficulty that I wanted to play it to the best of my ability. That is why I asked for advice.

It may well be the case that this piece is the catalyst for me to learn the piano "properly", but I certainly would never have been enticed into playing the piano "properly" (though I really dispute there is such a thing) if it hadn't been for this surprising and very enjoyable experience. Instead, the irony of many people here telling me I should have done it formally is that I never would have even considered that approach were it not for this experience, which has shown me

1) I thrive on technical challenge
2) I have naturally good technical ability
3) I am capable of consistent, disciplined practice when I feel determined enough (as in the past few weeks)

 This thread has devolved into something it wasn't intended to be, and I've half a mind to delete it.

I'll let my final recording of FI be the reply to people who have told me it's impossible to improve it due to my experience level. I already think it's a lot better than the recording.

[outin]

Not all beginners are in it for the whole journey but if you just want to play one or two pieces that is not something we should encourage, it is highly unusual, most want at least the whole journey that encompasses their capabilities.

Of course I agree that it's not something that should be generally encouraged and that it is very unusual. I just don't see why we shouldn't accept that unusual things do happen and why we should so strongly discourage someone who already has expressed such an unsual wish. My guess is that if we could convince that what he is doing is silly and he does not want/cannot start lessons as a beginner (and possibly has no access to great teachers such as you who could get him somewhere fast), he would just stop playing the piano. What then was achieved?

If I compare what the op is doing with the guy who wanted to go from nothing to abrsm level 8 in one year, I think what is invested here is less likely to become a big disappointment

Maybe I should add a disclaimer to every post in this thread: This is a discussion based only on the op's present situation and everyone should understand that lessons with a good teacher and progressive learning as proven effective in the past is the best option for any beginner wishing to learn to play the piano.

[teddy1324]

Of course I agree that it's not something that should be generally encouraged

I don't agree, based on my experience. This has led to an interest in becoming musically literate and taking lessons, and I can't see why that wouldn't apply to others who discover latent technical or musical ability by learning something they enjoy first.

[quantum]

I cannot speak for the OP, but I too have learned some pieces, in my first year, that are generally not advised to first year students. Learning these kind of harder pieces, when one has limited experience, does not happen magically, it requires the player to go extremely slowly at first, carefully work on the fingerings, excercising the weaker fingers, taking special care for the coordination between the hands, etc. Aren't these quite "basic skills"?

While these would come immediately for someone with experience, they need to be carefully studied for a beginner. So, even when approaching difficult pieces, a beginner actually works on the basics in order to be able to play it.

I think this is something very important.  Those students who prefer the more direct route, as opposed to the bottom up approach can be presented with this dilemma.  IMO, the problem-solving tool set required to tackle music of relative greater difficulty is developed much earlier in such students.  It gives such students an experiential advantage that will carry on into their later years of study in the ability to break down and work on difficult music, extending into music that is overwhelming and at first appearance my seem out of reach.  

Students of the bottom up approach are typically not presented regularly with meta challenges until they reach diploma level repertoire.  Repertoire challenges at the diploma level and above can seem like an insurmountable hurdle to those unaccustomed to dealing the situation - like all of a sudden the step-by-step ladder you were climbing was taken away.  It can be a daunting task to tackle such works, but people who have developed the tool set to tackle difficult music early on in their education will already have a work ethic in place to deal with this.  

[quantum]

Some people have totally ignored the context in which this piece was approached; I did not think to myself 'I want to learn the piano properly - and the best way to start would definitely be the Fantasie Impromptu because I have delusions of grandeur'.

My original post actually states the opposite - I started the piece as a slightly wacky attempt (for my own amusement) to learn something extremely difficult just to see what would happen, with the expectation that I would fail miserably. It was only when I realised I wasn't failing miserably and could play the whole piece through without difficulty that I wanted to play it to the best of my ability. That is why I asked for advice.

It may well be the case that this piece is the catalyst for me to learn the piano "properly", but I certainly would never have been enticed into playing the piano "properly" (though I really dispute there is such a thing) if it hadn't been for this surprising and very enjoyable experience. Instead, the irony of many people here telling me I should have done it formally is that I never would have even considered that approach were it not for this experience, which has shown me

1) I thrive on technical challenge
2) I have naturally good technical ability
3) I am capable of consistent, disciplined practice when I feel determined enough (as in the past few weeks)

Well said. 

IMO, too many people are afraid of experimenting.  You have done so and learned something about yourself. 

[outin]

I disagree with correct training if the FI is at your ability level you should be able to learn most of it within a week and then within a space of time after that it would be mastered depending on the individual.

So true, but isn't the issue here that this ability level is not something that can be achieved shortly? And the fact is that countless of students never do, despite years of lessons?

Some people even spend years to craft single pieces but the majority of the work can be done within a small space of time, you can chisel away at your favorite works for as long as you like but learn new music in the meantime.

Please consider that some of us are not studying the piano to "collect trophies", to learn as many pieces as possible in the shortest amount of time. Some of us actually enjoy meticulously working on details of a single piece over a long period, instead of "finishing" them as soon as possible and moving on. Our motivation comes purely from the music itself and the time we spend working on understanding and learning to play it, not from climbing the ladder of gaining skills.

When you talk about your teaching philosophy, it seems very appropriate to a norm of students, and is surely very effective in making them happy. But it does not seem very appealing to me. When I started I too thought that I wanted to collect the skills to play piece x as soon as possible. But the closer I get to that goal the less important it seems. I am old enough to know myself very well. I have had other interests where I was goal oriented and wanted to achieve something. And I have realized that in the end achievement does not make me happy. When I achieve something I tend to lose interest to the whole thing. The easier things become the less important they are to me. So I move on. I don't want that to happen with piano, to one day say that now I can play x level of music but where did all that time go? I have learned to live in the moment and it has given me inner piece I never thought I would find when I was younger. I enjoy the times I spend with the pieces I myself selected to learn so much, that it really is irrelevant how long it will take to learn them. I don't want to stop studying them because "I am done", but only when I cannot make them better anymore.

It's good to balance this with lessons, but my lessons stopped being progressive in the traditional sense a long time ago. Whatever progress I make comes from the need to play my pieces better, not from levels or grades. My teacher understands that I am not like most of her students that fall into two categories: Those who want to learn to play but have limited interest to work for it and those who want to take exams and progress as fast as possible. I love to be challenged and learn new skills, but only when I can apply them to something I find interesting. I jump around in repertoire and don't mind learning something meant for near beginners if it appeals to me. From my point of view what the OP is doing does not seem completely grazy at all. If he got passionate about what he was doing and doing it made him happy, then it surely has not been time lost.

[outin]

I don't agree, based on my experience. This has led to an interest in becoming musically literate and taking lessons, and I can't see why that wouldn't apply to others who discover latent technical or musical ability by learning something they enjoy first.

It seems many people don't discover latent technical or musical ability in such a process but instead get frustrated (sometimes even injured) and quit. So your experience does not generalize well, although I am sure there are others like you

[georgey]

My final thoughts on this -some of this may sound familiar from a prior post I made last year - Hi dogperson.

The OP is playing piano JUST FOR FUN and he appears to be enjoying himself.  This is great!!  He is learning piano by himself using his own made up methods (so it appears).  Although I have not heard his playing, he appears to be doing very well based on comments I read and assuming his description of himself is accurate and without exaggeration.  At the same time he is asking for help here from musicians trained in conventional ways. But he is not interested in learning in conventional ways at this time and so this may lead to conflict.

At some later point the OP may reach a “wall” where he is unable to improve by himself, no matter how much time he spends on a piece.  Not being able to improve MAY make practicing piano less fun for him. If and when he reaches the “wall”, he probably will not be able to fix things by posting here and asking questions.  He probably will need to take lessons from a good teacher and be willing to learn new things and unlearn bad habits.  

So to the OP:  Until you reach the “wall” (if ever), have fun and happy practicing!

[vaniii]

Fine.

Please include the introduction; Chopin put a G-sharp there for a reason.  I insist you wait for two full bars as asked; it is a perfect cadence, and it is necessary.

The two bars of six-tuplet quavers on C-sharp minor in bars 3 and 4 set up the bed of colour that allow you to evenly set up the poly-rhythm.  Use this to make your pulse more even; do not skip it.

Your left hand is too loud.  Though there is a lot happening, it should not be this prominent; allowance can be made for first note on each group because it is harmonically relevant, however, Chopin does not state it as such.

Make the six-tuplets more even, currently you snatch them at the start of the bar with a distinct pause at the end of the bar.  This is due to the poly rhythm still not being a secure device that you can comfortably 'switch-on'; practice this slow with a metronome.

When the right hand takes over in the contrasting material, you need to make the tune more prominent:

- Firstly when it is on the beat at the bottom of the octave.
- Then again when it is syncopated at the top of the octave.

Be consistent with your tempo, if you have to slow for your climax, that is your speed for that section (introduction, and section A; not section B in Db major).

Do not practice it with rubato, apply it after the fact once you can play it securely straight.

---

Edit: I am not looking at the score; forgive any apparent inaccuracies, this is an amalgam of multiple editions.

---

Edit 2: The entire first section is suppose to be mixtures of p and mp, the only f, or perhaps ff is in the clamax which builds in waves in the preceding bars.

---

As stated your recording is good; do not take my critique or comment to heart.

Re-posting my advise for visibility.

[lostinidlewonder]

I just don't see why we shouldn't accept that unusual things do happen and why we should so strongly discourage someone who already has expressed such an unsual wish.

Well if you ask me I don't believe that the OP story is true that they ONLY have played FI and nothing else, it is too alien a story.

...if we could convince that what he is doing is silly and he does not want/cannot start lessons as a beginner (and possibly has no access to great teachers such as you who could get him somewhere fast), he would just stop playing the piano. What then was achieved?

I don't want to convince the OP of anything at all, I just want to offer advice as to what we normally do, I don't think it is good to commend the OP and consider how this relates to our own personal journey because it is such a weird path and I am sure many beginners who read the thread would do so.

If I compare what the op is doing with the guy who wanted to go from nothing to abrsm level 8 in one year, I think what is invested here is less likely to become a big disappointment

We had lots of weird people come through pianostreet, I remember breadboy and his FI after playing Fur Elise lol.

Maybe I should add a disclaimer to every post in this thread: This is a discussion based only on the op's present situation and everyone should understand that lessons with a good teacher and progressive learning as proven effective in the past is the best option for any beginner wishing to learn to play the piano.

I don't think that responses have to constantly agree with each other, what the heck is wrong with offering a different stance and indeed disagreeing with what others are doing? It is not a personal attack and it reveals another view. The OP has posted on a public forum so they should expect ideas that they might not necessarily agree with, if they only want their ego rubbed up then I dunno what the purpose of posting is!

So true, but isn't the issue here that this ability level is not something that can be achieved shortly? And the fact is that countless of students never do, despite years of lessons?

I dont think one size fits all, I have had students who have developed extremely fast and others that don't, those that don't don't have as much time to invest in their studies in general.

Please consider that some of us are not studying the piano to "collect trophies", to learn as many pieces as possible in the shortest amount of time.

It is a matter of efficiency of your study and should be an aim for everyone in many different degrees of application. Whoever approaches study without caring about how fast they learn is setting themselves up for disaster and a huge amount of time wastage. We are not immortal our time here is limited, wasting time is really silly if it can be avoided.

Some of us actually enjoy meticulously working on details of a single piece over a long period, instead of "finishing" them as soon as possible and moving on. Our motivation comes purely from the music itself and the time we spend working on understanding and learning to play it, not from climbing the ladder of gaining skills.

Studying a single piece obsessively and making slow progress, I don't see the joy in this, I have indeed taken many students away from such brainwashing procedures, even some quite skilled pianists ive taught believe that it should take a long time to master something, until I tell them to think otherwise and then they realize that they can actually learn pieces at a much more efficient rate. It is a matter of showing people what it is like to work at an efficient level, I am yet to meet a single person that doesn't enjoy it once they understand the difference, it is empowering, you actually make fast progress rather than a snails speed!

...When I achieve something I tend to lose interest to the whole thing....

Unusual, most people feel a sense of accomplishment and are excited to share their completed works with others and themselves of course, isn't it a joy to play something you have thoroughly mastered? You need to also upkeep your favorite pieces if you don't play them for many years they will require practice again.

The easier things become the less important they are to me. So I move on. I don't want that to happen with piano, to one day say that now I can play x level of music but where did all that time go?

With the volume of works there is on the piano you can never come to the end. As things become easier you raise the bar as to what pieces you can easily achieve, if you really experience this in action it is very exciting. For example I just have to compare my sight reading skills from when I was a child to now, now I can read a large amount of works instantly at mastery with no practice at all, that certainly is highly empowering.

I enjoy the times I spend with the pieces I myself selected to learn so much, that it really is irrelevant how long it will take to learn them. I don't want to stop studying them because "I am done", but only when I cannot make them better anymore.

This sets people up for wasting a lot of time, they might not realize it because it is a situation where they just "don't know they don't know". There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying pieces you love and are excited about but if that becomes your only main priority then there is a big problem and your development as a pianist will suffer. Sure some people might want to exist in this area for a few years before chasing up more structured study with a teacher, I have taught plenty of students from this boat and all of them lament how much time they use to waste after being shown the "light" lol.

Whatever progress I make comes from the need to play my pieces better, not from levels or grades.

The problem with this is when do you stop improving? You can never improve a piece until you are totally satisfied most of us pianists by our nature are perfectionists who are never satisfied! There is also a trap in polishing all your pieces always up before moving onto something else, it is certainly a time wasting. Not enough students of piano approach learning volume, they focus too much on small amounts of pieces, it is a problem with the examination process which only asks for a small amount of pieces and some students for a whole year play nothing else but their small exam collection. Quantity AND Quality is important, too many exams focus on Quality thus churn out student after student who takes ages to learn their works.

I love to be challenged and learn new skills, but only when I can apply them to something I find interesting. I jump around in repertoire and don't mind learning something meant for near beginners if it appeals to me.

New skills are important but knowing what current skills you have which need more practice and development is also critical. Studying piano can't always be fun and interesting we all have done things which are not so fun and makes us want to stop, practice is not always interesting and sometimes simply can be a load of work that needs to be done. Of course you need to be interested ultimately in your work but accept that there will be times when we struggle, often these are areas of most growth too.

From my point of view what the OP is doing does not seem completely grazy at all. If he got passionate about what he was doing and doing it made him happy, then it surely has not been time lost.

It is not a waste of time because if the OP one day is shown a proper method to approach piano they will realize that what they are currently doing is wasting time, they will be able to clearly compare it. If they as a beginner learn FI as their first piece in a few months then they should be able to develop their skills with easier pieces very fast and then tackle FI level music with much more efficiency and it wouldn't take long at all in this case. Most beginners of the piano would take several years to butcher the FI (and most would simply give up), if a beginner can do a decent job in a few months then they really need to consider their study approach much more seriously because they are doing themselves a great disservice if they indeed are talented. 

[outin]

Well if you ask me I don't believe that the OP story is true that they ONLY have played FI and nothing else, it is too alien a story.
I don't want to convince the OP of anything at all, I just want to offer advice as to what we normally do, I don't think it is good to commend the OP and consider how this relates to our own personal journey because it is such a weird path and I am sure many beginners who read the thread would do so.
We had lots of weird people come through pianostreet, I remember breadboy and his FI after playing Fur Elise lol.

I don't think that responses have to constantly agree with each other, what the heck is wrong with offering a different stance and indeed disagreeing with what others are doing? It is not a personal attack and it reveals another view. The OP has posted on a public forum so they should expect ideas that they might not necessarily agree with, if they only want their ego rubbed up then I dunno what the purpose of posting is!

I dont think one size fits all, I have had students who have developed extremely fast and others that don't, those that don't don't have as much time to invest in their studies in general.
It is a matter of efficiency of your study and should be an aim for everyone in many different degrees of application. Whoever approaches study without caring about how fast they learn is setting themselves up for disaster and a huge amount of time wastage. We are not immortal our time here is limited, wasting time is really silly if it can be avoided.
Studying a single piece obsessively and making slow progress, I don't see the joy in this, I have indeed taken many students away from such brainwashing procedures, even some quite skilled pianists ive taught believe that it should take a long time to master something, until I tell them to think otherwise and then they realize that they can actually learn pieces at a much more efficient rate. It is a matter of showing people what it is like to work at an efficient level, I am yet to meet a single person that doesn't enjoy it once they understand the difference, it is empowering, you actually make fast progress rather than a snails speed!

Unusual, most people feel a sense of accomplishment and are excited to share their completed works with others and themselves of course, isn't it a joy to play something you have thoroughly mastered? You need to also upkeep your favorite pieces if you don't play them for many years they will require practice again.
With the volume of works there is on the piano you can never come to the end. As things become easier you raise the bar as to what pieces you can easily achieve, if you really experience this in action it is very exciting. For example I just have to compare my sight reading skills from when I was a child to now, now I can read a large amount of works instantly at mastery with no practice at all, that certainly is highly empowering.

This sets people up for wasting a lot of time, they might not realize it because it is a situation where they just "don't know they don't know". There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying pieces you love and are excited about but if that becomes your only main priority then there is a big problem and your development as a pianist will suffer. Sure some people might want to exist in this area for a few years before chasing up more structured study with a teacher, I have taught plenty of students from this boat and all of them lament how much time they use to waste after being shown the "light" lol.
The problem with this is when do you stop improving? You can never improve a piece until you are totally satisfied most of us pianists by our nature are perfectionists who are never satisfied! There is also a trap in polishing all your pieces always up before moving onto something else, it is certainly a time wasting. Not enough students of piano approach learning volume, they focus too much on small amounts of pieces, it is a problem with the examination process which only asks for a small amount of pieces and some students for a whole year play nothing else but their small exam collection. Quantity AND Quality is important, too many exams focus on Quality thus churn out student after student who takes ages to learn their works.
New skills are important but knowing what current skills you have which need more practice and development is also critical. Studying piano can't always be fun and interesting we all have done things which are not so fun and makes us want to stop, practice is not always interesting and sometimes simply can be a load of work that needs to be done. Of course you need to be interested ultimately in your work but accept that there will be times when we struggle, often these are areas of most growth too.
It is not a waste of time because if the OP one day is shown a proper method to approach piano they will realize that what they are currently doing is wasting time, they will be able to clearly compare it. If they as a beginner learn FI as their first piece in a few months then they should be able to develop their skills with easier pieces very fast and then tackle FI level music with much more efficiency and it wouldn't take long at all in this case. Most beginners of the piano would take several years to butcher the FI (and most would simply give up), if a beginner can do a decent job in a few months then they really need to consider their study approach much more seriously because they are doing themselves a great disservice if they indeed are talented.  

It would clearly be a waste of time for me to try to change your mind
You are set on what you think as waste of time, which you keep repeating. But it just doesn't make it anything else than your opinion. We have such a different life philosophy that we could never agree on that. It's like we are on the different banks of a river. I can see your side and can understand why you think the way you think (because it is indeed "normal") but it seems you cannot see my side and cannot imagine a situation when one is not "normal". I am used to being "different" and following my own path, which has made my life turn out pretty nice. I am also used to people (arrogant teachers among others LOL) telling me how I will chance my mind after time and consistently proven them wrong. I am still waiting for the day when I will realise that I should have done things differently...but the clock keeps ticking and the older I get the more unlikely that event becomes. As you know, we will all die sooner or later. For me it makes little sense to focus on something that might happen in the future, since I may not be around to witness it. Had I listened to people like you who think they know what's best in all cases and for everyone else, I would be a very unhappy person and maybe in an institution already

But I am not blind to advice and often do try out what is suggested because my world is not black and white and I am willing to experiment. So it's not that I haven't tried it your way, it just gave me no pleasure and pleasure is what I want from life, nothing else. I am a really bad protestant and believe the old saying "no pain no gain" is BS, you just need to think out of the box

But I understand now that you don't actually believe the OP and so want to avoid people taking his example. I give him more credit than that, because I have seen with my own eyes what some people can achieve even when doing things "the wrong way". Highly unusual yes, but possible imo.

And no, it's not a joy for me to play through things I have mastered. Things are only interesting for me when they evolve and change. Also I noticed already when I was young that success does not motivate me, hardships do. When I feel I have accomplished something I tend to lose motivation and it's sometimes difficult for me to get it back. I am an explorer by nature and I get pleasure from seeking and finding answers and quickly lose interest after something is solved, already focusing on the next difficulty. It's probably in my genes, considering I come from the grazy people who inhabited this cold and dark part of the world where comfort was never long lasting

[lostinidlewonder]

It would clearly be a waste of time for me to try to change your mind
You are set on what you think as waste of time, which you keep repeating. But it just doesn't make it anything else than your opinion.

I've taught several hundred people piano over the decades so it's not just an idea I have in my head it's something I see in action in many different individuals.

We have such a different life philosophy that we could never agree on that. It's like we are on the different banks of a river. I can see your side and can understand why you think the way you think (because it is indeed "normal") but it seems you cannot see my side and cannot imagine a situation when one is not "normal".

What are you on about I'm not going to agree with you there's no need when discussing something why does that have to be an aim? You can do whatever you like but I'm basing my opinion based on what have learned through my profession of teaching piano to many individuals. I've met many types of people who have done all sorts of things with piano.

[
I am used to being "different" and following my own path, which has made my life turn out pretty nice. I am also used to people (arrogant teachers among others LOL) telling me how I will chance my mind after time and consistently proven them wrong. I am still waiting for the day when I will realise that I should have done things differently...but the clock keeps ticking and the older I get the more unlikely that event becomes. As you know, we will all die sooner or later. For me it makes little sense to focus on something that might happen in the future, since I may not be around to witness it. Had I listened to people like you who think they know what's best in all cases and for everyone else, I would be a very unhappy person and maybe in an institution already

It's fine to follow your own path but we all must somehow construct an improved path through the music we learn. What is the point struggling all the time, yes we should struggle but not focus on single pieces and frustrate ourselves for months/years on end. Yes fine sure do it you will gain experience and learn from it but look at the opportunity cost, most people have me as a teacher to construct a regieme for their piano studies, not necessarily stopping them from practicing things they love but certainly submitting to my advice for where they invest most their attention.

But I am not blind to advice and often do try out what is suggested because my world is not black and white and I am willing to experiment. So it's not that I haven't tried it your way, it just gave me no pleasure and pleasure is what I want from life, nothing else. I am a really bad protestant and believe the old saying "no pain no gain" is BS, you just need to think out of the box

There are plenty of beautiful easier pieces everyone can discover and love really. If one is really one minded and wants to play ONLY particular pieces despite its difficulty then they in my opinion need to adjust the way in which they learn. Not everything you face needs be a Mount Everest of work it's ok to have some challenges but be able to work through your pieces at a good rate. Study pieces you love but make your main focus on building your experience base.

But I understand now that you don't actually believe the OP and so want to avoid people taking his example. I give him more credit than that, because I have seen with my own eyes what some people can achieve even when doing things "the wrong way". Highly unusual yes, but possible imo.

The op must have played at least something else to say fi is the single only piece is really alien.

And no, it's not a joy for me to play through things I have mastered.

This is very unusual one wonders why you play piano if all you want is to be challenged constantly and never enjoy your rewards.

[outin]

I've taught several hundred people piano over the decades so it's not just an idea I have in my head it's something I see in action in many different individuals.

What are you on about I'm not going to agree with you there's no need when discussing something why does that have to be an aim? You can do whatever you like but I'm basing my opinion based on what have learned through my profession of teaching piano to many individuals. I've met many types of people who have done all sorts of things with piano.
It's fine to follow your own path but we all must somehow construct an improved path through the music we learn. What is the point struggling all the time, yes we should struggle but not focus on single pieces and frustrate ourselves for months/years on end. Yes fine sure do it you will gain experience and learn from it but look at the opportunity cost, most people have me as a teacher to construct a regieme for their piano studies, not necessarily stopping them from practicing things they love but certainly submitting to my advice for where they invest most their attention.

There are plenty of beautiful easier pieces everyone can discover and love really. If one is really one minded and wants to play ONLY particular pieces despite its difficulty then they in my opinion need to adjust the way in which they learn. Not everything you face needs be a Mount Everest of work it's ok to have some challenges but be able to work through your pieces at a good rate. Study pieces you love but make your main focus on building your experience base.
The op must have played at least something else to say fi is the single only piece is really alien.
This is very unusual one wonders why you play piano if all you want is to be challenged constantly and never enjoy your rewards.

I don't expect you to agree, but again, it would not be a bad thing to accept that there are things beyond your understanding and not try to force everything into your own fixed frame of reference. The fact that you talk in terms of "we all must", "they ... need to adjust" and so on just tells me you are one of those individuals who don't want to do that and I feel it's a pity and limits your personal growth. But that's only my opinion and you don't have to agree or accept it at all. This is a fun discussion anyway

My background is in science and it has taught me to be humble when assessing things and it means I would never trust my own observations only, however common, to generalize to all people all around the world. I know most people happily do.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't expect you to agree, but again, it would not be a bad thing to accept that there are things beyond your understanding and not try to force everything into your own fixed frame of reference. The fact that you talk in terms of "we all must", "they ... need to adjust" and so on just tells me you are one of those individuals who don't want to do that and I feel it's a pity and limits your personal growth. But that's only my opinion and you don't have to agree or accept it at all. This is a fun discussion anyway

My background is in science and it has taught me to be humble when assessing things and it means I would never trust my own observations only, however common, to generalize to all people all around the world. I know most people happily do.

I think you misunderstand me, I have had students similar to the op and I appreciate people work in many different ways. As an educator however I have steered many students away from ineffective approaches, and it's not because I don't understand their methodology. Id question why someone wouldn't want to improve their practice method and rather always spend ages and ages struggling through very few pieces. I'm yet to meet a sane person who says they wouldn't like to be able to learn their music faster and more effectively. I work with the individual and allow them space to do what they like but if their idea is to study only single pieces for months on end, well then they should find another teacher because I wouldn't want them wasting their money with me.

[outin]

I think you misunderstand me, I have had students similar to the op and I appreciate people work in many different ways. As an educator however I have steered many students away from ineffective approaches, and it's not because I don't understand their methodology. Id question why someone wouldn't want to improve their practice method and rather always spend ages and ages struggling through very few pieces. I'm yet to meet a sane person who says they wouldn't like to be able to learn their music faster and more effectively. I work with the individual and allow them space to do what they like but if their idea is to study only single pieces for months on end, well then they should find another teacher because I wouldn't want them wasting their money with me.

OK that I get and I think I cannot completely explain how I work in these posts either so it probably sounds even weirder to you than it really is

[kuska]

Is there any kind of a mod? I'm not sure if this is the right place for such discussions (there's already a plenty of issues to talk about here) but I think this thread points to a more general and important question than if a guy should learn to read music sheet or not.

In the era of free market we're told everyone can do everything. Well, it's right in a way but very wrong in the other. We're told that because someone simply earns money on learning us. So imo it is true that everyone can start doing something and achieve some level of proficiency. But as the money goes on, we've got poor black belts e.g. or we're kept in schools approximately 5 years more to achieve what was done faster in the past thanks to the selection.

I've seen many people who think they're excellent translators because they know a language when at the same time they think translation is all about translating literarally.

I've even heard some rumours that a mother was told to keep her child away from reading cause it's getting too good for its grade. Fortunately, it wasn't in my country... yet.

The problem is the wider pseudo-knowledge is spread, the wider goes thinking that everyone can do it and so it's not worth the money you want for that. We want it cheap and fast. We don't want it perfect and we don't trust in quality anymore as we can't judge it by ourselves.

Why I write all this. Because simply the guy with Fantasie opens up an important question. Do we still need musicians who study piano for years if most people won't be able to judge it anyway. The money is in the electronic industry and it can do wonders even if you can't read music sheet. Just move some blocks around and voila.

[outin]

Do we still need musicians who study piano for years if most people won't be able to judge it anyway. The money is in the electronic industry and it can do wonders even if you can't read music sheet. Just move some blocks around and voila.

There's room for both. We still need serious musicianship developed over years and ending in a performing (or teaching) career. But it doesn't mean some people cannot just have fun with music the way they see fit. The older generations before the internet (which I am part of) sometimes have a hard time accepting that information, tools and publicity are now available to anyone freely and while they cannot replace the traditional route, there's a lot that people can do with it. One can share even a poor performance of any piece and get nice feedback from hundreds of people and if it makes them happy, who are we to judge whether their time is well spent or not?

You are new here? There's very little moderation on this forum (which I like). Discussions often flow freely far away from what the OP intended. Honestly I don't think the OP really can get what he wants here anyway.

[vaniii]

Re-posting my advise for visibility.

Waiting for teddy.

[visitor]

[kalospiano]

There has been an enormous amount of posts and I don't have the time to read them all, but I'm still curious to hear the full version of the piece and I hope that Teddy will post the new recording.

[vaniii]

Fine.

Please include the introduction; Chopin put a G-sharp there for a reason.  I insist you wait for two full bars as asked; it is a perfect cadence, and it is necessary.

The two bars of six-tuplet quavers on C-sharp minor in bars 3 and 4 set up the bed of colour that allow you to evenly set up the poly-rhythm.  Use this to make your pulse more even; do not skip it.

Your left hand is too loud.  Though there is a lot happening, it should not be this prominent; allowance can be made for the first note on each group because it is harmonically relevant, however, Chopin does not state it as such.

Make the six-tuplets more even, currently you snatch them at the start of the bar with a distinct pause at the end of the bar.  This is due to the poly rhythm still not being a secure device that you can comfortably 'switch-on'; practice this slow with a metronome.

When the right hand takes over in the contrasting material, you need to make the tune more prominent:

- Firstly when it is on the beat at the bottom of the octave.
- Then again when it is syncopated at the top of the octave.

Be consistent with your tempo, if you have to slow for your climax, that is your speed for that section (introduction, and section A¹ and A²; not section B in Db major).

Do not practice it with rubato, apply it after the fact once you can play it securely straight.

The entire first section is suppose to be mixtures of p and mp, the only f, or perhaps ff is in the climax which builds in waves in the preceding bars.

Re-posting my advice for visibility.

I will continue to do so until the author responds.

[ale_ius]

Its a trap!

[vaniii]

I am confused.

Why is my post a trap?

[enrique2point0]

I am confused.

Why is my post a trap?

i got the joke.
(now explained in "Happy's voice")

seems like no matter what is said, OP will not 'win' the 'discussion'/'debate'.  also, if i read you advice from the perspective of someone with not enough background knowledge to make sense of and apply said advice,  it's a no win.  
i were OP, I would even bother posting another recording or responding what comes across as passive aggressive "help". Posting and quoting and re quoting ones own reply in an effort to lure the OP into another discussion seems sort of trappy if you ask. which you did.

 

[visitor]

[vaniii]

i got the joke.
(now explained in "Happy's voice")

seems like no matter what is said, OP will not 'win' the 'discussion'/'debate'.  also, if i read you advice from the perspective of someone with not enough background knowledge to make sense of and apply said advice,  it's a no win. 
i were OP, I would even bother posting another recording or responding what comes across as passive aggressive "help". Posting and quoting and re quoting ones own reply in an effort to lure the OP into another discussion seems sort of trappy if you ask. which you did.

 

Understood.

From my perspective, I stated from the beginning, the only advice I can give is to change the method in which the OP learned to play.

He insisted that he wants help and advice; I suggested that he might not understand what is required to make it better.

From your account, I was correct; any person performing the 'Fantasie-Impromptu', or rather, at the level of ability needed to perform the 'Fantasie-Impromptu' would, and should, understand what I have posted.

It is pretty rudimentary stuff.

I will not post further; good luck to the OP.

[adodd81802]

Re-posting my advice for visibility.

I will continue to do so until the author responds.

This feels borderline harassment lol

I go back to my point on the blind guy playing La Campenella. It goes to show that we can all instill a 'standard' methodology to master a skill, but the fact is there's something more required and that even the most inefficient methods can achieve the best results if you got that drive to achieve them.

[teddy1324]

There has been an enormous amount of posts and I don't have the time to read them all, but I'm still curious to hear the full version of the piece and I hope that Teddy will post the new recording.

I will post a new recording tonight since the one currently up is incomplete and was never intended as a performance.

[pazzi]

Hey teddy, you did a great job! Congratulations on your efforts!

I'm an architecture student and I'm self taught on piano, I've learned music without sheet too, got my first piece 5 years ago and it was Debussy's Clair de Lune (took me around 2 months to learn it and I've played it very badly).

I've done it through "Synthesia" software, memorizing the piece in a 5 octaves keyboard having to transpose octaves and later testing the piece on my university pianos (when the students weren't there, I used to invade the Arts Institute, hahaha)

I think you are doing much better than I did by that time! I remember having problems with basically everything: rhythm, pulse, pedals, breathing through the sections, dynamics.

Now, 5 years later, I understand them better! I did have some music knowledge before because I've played guitar as a self taught amateur, but it was only some facility with the ear, I had no sense of structure.

I played all the pieces I wanted in these 5 years, most of them are really hard pieces, in the 1st year I have played C. de Lune and the Prelude (S. Bergamasque), Reflets dans l'eau, Valse Romantique, and even grasped half of Stravinsky's Danse Russe from Petrushka  

My first Sonata was Scriabin's 5th (I love Scriabin's music!), which I have posted there on PS before (I still play it badly), the second Sonata was Beethoven's Op. 109 first movement, I've played many Ravel's also, Tombeau de Couperin (without the Rigaudon), Jeux d'eau, Alborada, Prelude, Sonatine's 1st and 2nd movements.

After 4 years I started reading some sheet (I read some mikrokosmos bk. I, Schumman's 1st Kinderszenen piece, a Scriabin Poeme and later started Prokofiev 7th), it was kinda easy since I knew how the music structure works, but I didn't practice anymore because now I have less time and I'm already used to Synthesia.

I will be practicing reading sheet later because some music I really want to play, like Prokofiev's 7th, don't have a midi sequence done yet by anyone and also, like quantum said, it's hard to talk with musicians without knowing some of these things.

I think this visual approach with Synthesia works very well to understand music structure because, as they would say in "learn to learn" discussions, it's easier for someone with no knowledge in music to create chunks of information in this way, intuitively relating visual information.

[teddy1324]

I have now made a video, which shows the whole piece up until the end where I have a little tantrum about my mistake and give up. I couldn't make another recording because it was approaching 9 and I didn't want to piss the neighbours off.

I'm actually pretty disappointed with the way it sounds, but I think it might have something to do with the fact I positioned the phone on the piano. I also found myself extremely bored by my laboured attempt at the middle section.

I'm posting the video anyway because some people have taken an interest in my mad approach to the piano. I will continue to post videos with updates whenever I feel I have had the time to make a marked improvement to my performance, so that I and anyone who is interested can track my progress on this piece. I will also be finding myself a teacher, so it will be interesting to see how that affects future recordings. I hope to be happy with this piece in its entirety within 4 weeks.

Nonetheless, here's my first ever full (or almost full) recording.

edit: yeah it really sounds very quiet, even at the climax sections (which i was playing loudly!) I think it's due to the phone being on the piano itself.. Will correct this for next time.

[vaniii]

Good job.

Don't worry.

The middle is a little too slow; it cannot sound like a seperate piece of music.

The ornaments are currently  too functional and  non-decrative, perhaps a little overstated. Think of them as icing,  you need them to finish the cake, not be the focal point, drawing away from the cake.

Dynamics on a phone recording will always be questionable, don't pay this any mind.

Regrading the ending, you celebrated, and lost focus. You need to breath out when you reach this bit and release all of your tension. Play to the top, the tune is pretty much all in fingers 4 and 5 right hand.

Please re-record and share when time allows.

Again, good job.

[teddy1324]

Good job.

Don't worry.

The middle is a little too slow; it cannot sound like a seperate piece of music.

The ornaments are currently  too functional and  non-decrative, perhaps a little overstated. Think of them as icing,  you need them to finish the cake, not be the focal point, drawing away from the cake.

Dynamics on a phone recording will always be questionable, don't pay this any mind.

Regrading the ending, you celebrated, and lost focus. You need to breath out when you reach this bit and release all of your tension. Play to the top, the tune is pretty much all in fingers 4 and 5 right hand.

Please re-record and share when time allows.

Again, good job.

Thanks. Incidentally, I was able to decipher most of the advice that you gave me. My mum plays the piano (which is why there is one in the house) and was able to help on that front. I'm finding it difficult to avoid the pauses, but I think i'm improving at it. I would also much prefer the first run to be more even.

yeah spot on about the ending. I can usually play this without too much trouble so got a little complacent.

[vaniii]

When time comes to perform, you need to lose all doubts.

You are currently looking for reassurance; unfortunately this will be your undoing, particularly in the coda where mental fatigue will start to set in.

I would suggest rehearsing calmly and slowly to make sure you are doing everything you intend to.  Then, you have to let go and succumb to the performance.

The celebration I mentioned at the end was literally a mental cue "Only X bars left"; even this minuscule thought will veer your attention away from the performance, resulting in a momentary pause.

At this point, you will focus on the mistake as you did; it does not need to be perfect.  The time for perfecting is in practice.  You need to work on the difference: practise practising; then practise performing: try not to stop when you make an error.

It is clear you know what you are doing, however, you asked for critique, and so you received critique.

Please believe in yourself; commit 100% and celebrate when it is complete.

See below.

[teddy1324]

 you asked for critique, and so you received critique.

Critique is absolutely what I need. Don't feel the need to hold back: you could tell me it was a complete hatchet job if that's what you thought and I wouldn't think you were being rude - provided there was some constructive advice.

It's clear you disagree with my approach, and I can see why. At times I feel crazy going straight in at the deep end, but I genuinely believe I can get this to a high standard. My reward for completion will be the satisfaction, but also the peace of mind to move onto nocturne op 27 no 9 - with the aid of a teacher while learning to read music.