Piano Forum
Piano Board => Student's Corner => Topic started by: kalospiano on March 17, 2016, 02:57:14 PM
-
Hello guys.
After a year of self-study I will finally start taking lessons with a teacher in a couple of days.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the hope that the teacher will agree to let me continue with the program that I previously set for myself, and I would like to ask you guys an opinion on something.
Among part of my training schedule, I've decided some time ago to loosely follow the book "Classics for the Developing Pianist" from Ingrid Jacobson Clarfield, which to my understanding should be a graded list of pieces.
I said "follow loosely" because I only selected some of the pieces in the books, the one that I like the most. The list of pieces in progressive order of difficulty is below (the pieces with the * sign are the ones that I've already memorized in the past, when I wasn't yet aware of the existence of this book):
*Arabesque, Op. 100, No. 2 (Burgmuller)
The Bear (Rebikov)
Chinese Figurine (Rebikov)
First Gymnopedie (Satie)
Solfeggietto (C.P.E. Bach)
Sonata in C Major, K. 545 (III) (W. A. Mozart)
Sonatina in C Major, Op. 36, No. 1 (Clementi)
About Foreign Lands and People, Op. 15, No. 1 (Schumann)
*Fur Elise, WoO 59 (Beethoven)
Invention No. 13 in A Minor, BWV 784 (J. S. Bach)
Invention No. 8 in F Major, BWV 779 (J. S. Bach)
Le petit negre (Debussy)
Prelude in C Major, BWV 846 (J. S. Bach)
Sonata in C Major, K. 545 (I) (W. A. Mozart)
Arabesque No. 1 (Debussy)
Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum (Debussy)
Golliwog's Cakewalk (Debussy)
Nocturne in E-flat Major, Op. 9, No. 2 (Chopin)
*Sonata in A Major, K. 331 (III: "Rondo alla Turca") (W. A. Mozart)
Sonata in C-sharp Minor ("Moonlight"), Op. 27, No. 2 (I) (Beethoven)
Clair de lune (Debussy)
Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66 (Chopin)
Maple Leaf Rag (Joplin)
Sonata in C Minor ("Pathetique"), Op. 13 (Beethoven)
Now, what I will ask my teacher and would also like to ask you is, do you think this list really reflects a progressive order of difficulty?
For instance, I've always thought that Bach's Prelude in C was fairly easy, but here it's listed after pieces such as Le Petit Negre and the two-part inventions. I might be dead wrong but even the Solfeggietto sounds harder than the Prelude to me.
Also, Maple Leaf Rag is put after Fantaisie-Impromptu. Isn't that a bit strange?
Finally, do you think that it would be okay to substitute the Maple Leaf Rag with The Entertainer? Are they about the same level of difficulty?
I'd love to hear your opinions on this.
Thank you very much in advance!
-
Well, by the looks of it, there is no logical progressive order to be found in that list and the way it is constructed isn't really useful. Let me back-up a little bit. First, in my opinion, it has a lot of defects regarding the order of difficulty of the pieces.
For example - and I say it again, it's my opinion - there is no way the 13th Invention is easier than the 8th one. Then after Golliwog's Cakewalk it skips over some levels and goes straight to Chopin's Nocturne, Op. 9/2 which is harder to perform than it seems at first sight. Then it goes back a notch in technical difficulty to the Rondo alla Turca and then skips over a LOT of levels and goes to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (unless they mean the first movement only, which would still be wrong in place) and Chopin's Fantaisie-Impromptu.
Next thing is that the pieces listed don't elaborate on anything that has been learned before (except maybe a little bit at the beginning of the list). It just starts with some basic, simple stuff, then goes straight to pieces which are very different in terms of technical requirements, and then goes back again to something completely different. In my opinion it also misses a lot of important kind of pieces/textures. It mostly misses a lot of Bach (which really is important, no matter your ideas about him). It only features two inventions which seem to be just randomly thrown into the list.
If I were you, I would completely drop this list. Instead, begin with Bach's Little Preludes and Fugues and the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach. It might sound a little bit standard, but they really provide you with a good basis for more advanced stuff. Later on you can dive into sonat(in)as by early classical composers to get a sense of standard classical forms. But I really suggest to never drop Bach, he is important no matter what and his music will always bring you good results (if you study it right).
Also, as soon as you have the basics of piano playing really firmly under your belt, don't worry too much anymore about level of difficulty. Every piece is learnable. The one may take you a year to learn and the other one only a few weeks, or even days. That being said, I also don't suggest to head off with Beethoven's late piano sonatas, but work on a few easier pieces with pretty much the same level of difficulty and one or two pieces which are more difficult, but not impossible to learn.
I hope that helps!
BW,
Marijn
-
Hi Marijn, thanks for your reply. I guess the reason why there are many huge leaps of levels between one piece and the other is mainly because I excluded a ton of music and only selected what I liked. I do intend to complete the whole thing with other stuff (namely the whole Burgmuller 109 and some ABRSM pieces, which I'm already studying) but I do understand your suggestion to do a lot of Bach (of which I also have already played a couple of pieces). Somehow I feel that it is easier to play stuff that I like and I'm kind of afraid of feeling less motivated if I start tackling pieces that I don't particularly like :( but let's also see how it goes when I finally see the teacher. Just two days more to go! Thanks again for your advice! ;)
-
Hi Marijn, thanks for your reply. I guess the reason why there are many huge leaps of levels between one piece and the other is mainly because I excluded a ton of music and only selected what I liked. I do intend to complete the whole thing with other stuff (namely the whole Burgmuller 109 and some ABRSM pieces, which I'm already studying) but I do understand your suggestion to do a lot of Bach (of which I also have already played a couple of pieces). Somehow I feel that it is easier to play stuff that I like and I'm kind of afraid of feeling less motivated if I start tackling pieces that I don't particularly like :( but let's also see how it goes when I finally see the teacher. Just two days more to go! Thanks again for your advice! ;)
You're welcome.
The Burgmuller's pieces are a great way to start, but I then suggest to start off with learning them all. See what your teacher says. Keep in mind that appreciation of certain music sometimes takes more understanding of it's structure and it's background, certainly with Bach.
Anyway, good luck and keep us updated on the experiences with your teacher!
BW,
Marijn
-
If you plan to study with a teacher then you should really take advantage of what this teacher can teach you. In what you propose, you are hampering this teacher's ability to guide you toward your growth before even starting. Why are you asking a panel of strangers to advise you on what the professional you just hired should be advising you?
-
If you plan to study with a teacher then you should really take advantage of what this teacher can teach you. In what you propose, you are hampering this teacher's ability to guide you toward your growth before even starting. Why are you asking a panel of strangers to advise you on what the professional you just hired should be advising you?
It's his/her own choice wether he/she will make use of it or not right?
-
Hi Keypeg,
I can easily answer your question.
I am actually rather happy with my progress during this year of self study. The reasons why I decided to "hire a professional" are very specific:
1) I'd like to have an external advice on my skills on be the only judge of myself
2) I need guidance on stuff that is difficult to figure out alone, namely pedaling, dynamics, touch and fingerings
I believe these two points can very well be taken care of by a professional without revolutionizing my own study plan that much, and as I said, I am extremely motivated at the moment, I go to play the piano at every free time slot that I manage to have, and I'm afraid to lose all this motivation if I can no longer follow my own interests. Also, the first time I contacted this teacher (who is a retired conservatory professor) he said that the structure of the course should be tailored to the tastes, needs and current skill level of the student, so I am moderately optimist in that sense.
The reason why I'm asking some strangers online for advice is simply that I like to hear multiple opinions instead of just one.
Having said this, I totally see your point and I thank you for having shared your opinion on this.
Marijn, I thank you as well. I'm totally in love with Burgmuller's 109 and in the future I intend to play also a couple of pieces from Op 100. Tomorrow I'll finally meet the teacher, wonder how it will go :) ps: just to clarify, I'm a guy! ;)
-
EDIT: I actually wrote Op 109 when I meant 100, and 100 when I meant 109 :/
-
I have a few thoughts, and first let me say I side with Keypeg's response in that you should definitely take full advice of your teacher and make full use of their knowledge.
It seems you have already had the wrong attitude at the start, as you've already advised that you skipped over a load of pieces that you didn't like. You can't really do that, that's not the point of progressive music, surely, logically you understand that?
If you were learning to draw, you wouldn't start with stick figures, skip to water colours and then try and paint the mona lisa surely! What you are doing there is only developing a couple of skills and lacking in others that will eventually cause your progression to come to a grinding halt.
Here's what you should do, by all means take your study ideas to your teacher, next you should have your strongest piece ready to perform for this teacher a piece that you are confident is ready to perform say at a concert or for your friends, whatever you like. Then you can get your teachers feedback on that piece and their idea of where they would take you in terms of progression.
If they say it's perfect, all good (although chances are they're just being soft and don't want to scare you away on a first lesson) If they tear that piece apart, it will reinforce that despite you may have played a higher level piece, it doesn't make you higher level, and you will need an understanding that you cannot just pick a bunch of pieces and expect the teacher to be able to get you to that level with no work inbetween.
Amateur pianists are baffling, in no other skill would a student go in with an idea of telling a teacher what they should be taught.
There's no way you go from claire de lune, to fantasie impromptu to ... maple leaf rag...to the pathetique sonata! Furthermore you have even skipped pieces in your smaller list by going straight from a random arabesque to fur elise.... maybe there just is no logic here.
-
Something like this is more appropriate if you don't plan on listening to a teacher.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Standard_Graded_Course_of_Studies_for_the_Pianoforte_(Mathews,_William_Smythe_Babcock)
without skipping out pieces.
copy the full link including the bracket on the end that's cut off the imslp links.
-
Hi Adodd!
Thank you very much for your answer.
Let me say that the list I presented here from Clarfield is not the only thing I'm studying on, and I didn't go from Arabesque to Fur Elise to the Rondo. It was actually the contrary :-D I should probably explain better my experience in order to avoid misunderstandings.
Let me also say that I love your advice on Mathews' book... simply because I'm already using it :-) I'm still at the first book, I'm not skipping pieces but I'm mainly using it as a tool to practice reading (together with other resources) and hopefully, technique, once I manage to improve.
So, I started the piano as a complete beginner by playing stuff like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Happy Birthday, some simple versions of some Beatles song, Frere Jacques, etc...
Then I moved to Menuet in G Major from Anna Magdalena's notebook, followed by Bach's Bourree in E minor BWV 996. I tried Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, but I left it because of problems memorizing it. I went on to Fur Elise, then Yann Tiersen's Comptine d'Une Autre Ete, then a jingle from an old Italian tv show :), and finally Mozart's Rondo. Hope I'm not forgetting anything.
I only recently decided to step back a little and play not only the whole Burgmuller Op 100, of which I'm currently working on piece 7 - the clear stream - but also pieces that I like from the ABRSM syllabus, starting from grade 1 (ARBSM exams require three pieces for grade, I'm actually doing even more, for some grades).
My complete plan was to follow these graded resources, plus other books of theory, sight reading, exercises and scales/arpeggios/chords, and only once I managed to complete the whole Op 100 plus, let's say, 4 or 5 ABRSM levels, start with the Clarfield list (while at the same time continuing with the ABRSM, which would hopefully help me fill the gaps due to the jumps in the Clarfield list).
As I said, I contacted this teacher with the two very specific goals in mind that I wrote in my previous answer.
People in here started to give their opinion on my intentions with this teacher, but actually the reason why I opened this thread in the first place was not so much to have an advice on the way I'm going to handle the teacher, but rather on the progression of pieces in that list, which I thought was actually not so "progressive" :) I realize that I might have used a wrong title for the thread, but I thought my first post was quite clearly pointing at my issue with the list, as what I wrote is the following:
QUOTE
Now, what I will ask my teacher and would also like to ask you is, do you think this list really reflects a progressive order of difficulty?
For instance, I've always thought that Bach's Prelude in C was fairly easy, but here it's listed after pieces such as Le Petit Negre and the two-part inventions. I might be dead wrong but even the Solfeggietto sounds harder than the Prelude to me.
Also, Maple Leaf Rag is put after Fantaisie-Impromptu. Isn't that a bit strange?
Finally, do you think that it would be okay to substitute the Maple Leaf Rag with The Entertainer? Are they about the same level of difficulty?
UNQUOTE
I swear that I absolutely appreciate reading your opinion on my study plans, but my question was only about the difficulty of the pieces in the list :)
In any case, I'm not saying that I will not follow my teacher's advice, I'm just saying that I will strongly challenge it if I don't like it :D but during the discussion he might definitely be able to convince me and I'm open to broaden my horizons, repertory-wise speaking.
-
Thanks for your response. It has cleared a couple of my thoughts up.
I think had you had been so detailed in the first place it would have gave better indication of your seriousness.
A lot of people come by with a list of pieces they liked the sound of and with a very unrealistic approach to trying to learn them.
What I will say, and stand by, is that it is contradictive to come and ask a bunch of strangers on the internet rather than just hold off and go to your teacher.
You probably would have gotten also a better response had you not mentioned the teacher altogether and just gotten straight to the point about the pieces.
No they are not in accurate progressive order, and further more the gaps between them are also quite uneven and also not really even in the same categories to be able to progress from / too.
Good luck in your studies. I hope you remain open minded. If a teacher makes a suggestion and you turn it down, you're just effectively paying them money to tell you what you want to hear.
If you take up the suggestion with full intent and it doesn't work, you can know the teacher may not be for you and you can go on to find a right teacher.
I went from a teacher a few months back that was Polish and loved Chopin, to a teacher now that really isn't fond of the romantic-style pieces and would much rather have me on Mozart or Beethoven!
-
Thank you very much, Adodd!
You're right, I should have avoided talking about the teacher and gone straight to the question about the list.
The funny thing is, I mentioned the teacher exactly because I wanted to avoid answers like "ask your teacher" ;D I will indeed ask my teacher as well, but I always prefer to hear more advices, especially since, as someone said, the difficulty of the pieces is a very very subjective thing, and I would have liked to make some sort of average between everybody's opinion.
I hope it will go well tomorrow with the teacher.
I wish you good luck with your teacher too. Isn't a bit bizarre that these teachers prefer one specific period compared to the other? Do you like your current teacher more than the previous one?
-
I love Chopin, so admittedly I preferred to hear from a teacher that loved him too, but at the same time, I don't want a teacher that's just like me, I'd rather a teacher to contrast, so I can learn pieces I may have never tried myself and learn not only to develop aspects I probably wouldn't have encountered only picking my pieces, but also open me up to new styles of music that I might not have tried without force, and could end up preferring.
Then with the technical ability under the belt, I can then use my own time to learn the pieces I want to play for myself, with the right knowledge to do that properly.
-
Amateur pianists are baffling, in no other skill would a student go in with an idea of telling a teacher what they should be taught.
it's not just an idea... a lot of the time they have been building this up in their minds for years. Most of the time there is a friend or relative who plays--and the new student wants to be just like them... If it's a respected family ancestor and the student has been told their entire life how wonderfully grandpa played, how he could have been a concert pianist if not for (insert unfortunate circumstance here)--and how he played (insert grade 6-8 piano piece here) absolutely perfectly--then look out... those are the ones who come in with their own lesson plan usually. The more detailed their self-imposed course of study is...the harder time I have teaching them anything. Their heads or so packed with misconceptions and misinformation it's ridiculous... and sometimes they are even paranoid that I am purposely withholding information from them to keep them at the student level.
What they want --usually--is to be told their self-made study course is genius and they are exceptionally gifted pianists. They love to explain the details of their plan which is always peppered with theory terms they don't understand but sound neat... circle of 5ths is a favorite as is polyrhythm. They don't want me to teach them... they want me to be impressed with their playing just like others were impressed when grandpa played. sigh... ::)
kalo--I am saying this at you directly... maybe this isn't you at all and I don't know one way or the other... it just happens quite a bit so I thought I would mention it. ;D
-
Hi kalospiano,
I am quite familiar with the pieces in your list.
My opinon which you asked for:
1. It is not in an accurate progressive order of difficulty but only a very crude one.
2. I would consider this a dream list of pieces to play in the future. Chopin and Debussy didn't compose any elementary pieces. Bach inventions would generally come after AMB notebook. Even the Clementi is a RCM grade 3 piece and the Schumann a RCM grade 6.
3. Some teachers spend a year using method books before assigning repertoire such as this. There's only a few pieces on the list that are appropriate for someone only playing a year.
4. There are much easier pieces by Beethoven, Kabalevsky, Mozart, Handel, Schumann and Bach. I would make a new list with these composers.
I hope I have been helpful, Joe.
P.S. Play the entertainer and not the Maple Leaf Rag.
P.P.S. Based on your tastes I think you might enjoy the Chopin waltz in A minor and it is considerably much more accessible than either the Nocturne or Fantaisie.
-
HEY JOE
this is what you wrote about tied notes
"Hi all,
Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.
So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.
Is that correct?"
IF YOU HAD TO ASK THIS QUESTION YOU ARE A BEGINNER QUIT HANDING OUT ADVICE--YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AT READING MUSIC JUST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO SOUND SMART BUT FAILING MISERABLY!!!! YOU NEVER RESTRIKE TIED NOTES DUMBASS THAT'S WHAT TIED MEANS IN EVERY CASE
-
HEY JOE
this is what you wrote about tied notes
"Hi all,
Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.
So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.
Is that correct?"
IF YOU HAD TO ASK THIS QUESTION YOU ARE A BEGINNER QUIT HANDING OUT ADVICE--YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AT READING MUSIC JUST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO SOUND SMART BUT FAILING MISERABLY!!!! YOU NEVER RESTRIKE TIED NOTES DUMBASS THAT'S WHAT TIED MEANS IN EVERY CASE
Are you not capable of controlling your mouth? Do you not know of civility have any mentor or adult not loved you enough to teach you this ?
Thanks.
-
Are you not capable of controlling your mouth? Do you not know of civility have any mentor or adult not loved you enough to teach you this ?
Thanks.
Trollbuster obviously is an expert on everything and therefore he allows himself to call other people dumb and stupid when they come for help here on the forum.
-
HEY JOE
this is what you wrote about tied notes
"Hi all,
Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.
So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.
Is that correct?"
IF YOU HAD TO ASK THIS QUESTION YOU ARE A BEGINNER QUIT HANDING OUT ADVICE--YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AT READING MUSIC JUST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO SOUND SMART BUT FAILING MISERABLY!!!! YOU NEVER RESTRIKE TIED NOTES DUMBASS THAT'S WHAT TIED MEANS IN EVERY CASE
I'm not sure Joe was trolling here. Infact I think he/she gave accurate advice.
There's a difference between busting a "troll" somebody who's clearly writing inaccurate posts to get a reaction, and insulting somebody that may have a lot of experience in one area, and be slightly baffled by a piece of music. It's not unusual.
-
kalospiano, I'll try to give some perspective which would be helpful for you to consider, but it's up to you to do so.
I self-taught a number of instruments for decades since childhood before I ever had lessons in any instrument, or any formal instruction. I also work in a field which is part science and part art (with fuzzy edges) and similar principles apply. I have had piano and music lessons with a good teacher for a number of years now. Here is what I have learned:
On our own we can only hear what we can already hear, and conceive what we can conceive - it all goes through the filter of this present "can". My teacher has made me hear what I never had heard or would have listened before, and understand from angles I didn't imagine. The other side of this was the humbling thing of initially not hearing what he could hear - but then the liberating thing OF hearing what I could not hear before. You may hear yourself like never before and say "man, that sucks", but then the teacher is there to guide you into not making it suck - for something that once upon a time was fine for you because you didn't hear it.
I've focused on hearing rather than ability to play, because it is through hearing and understanding that we judge our own playing and progress. If your new teacher is good, she will hear what you don't, and can guide you for what you need. But if you insist that it be done your way, based on your judgment which is based on your own less evolved hearing and understanding, then you are hampering this. And knowledge gained from reading and studying is not necessarily a help (it can be) and it can be a hindrance and blockage.
Now repertoire is part of that teaching, but not necessarily in the manner that you think. A teacher will know "This student needs skills A, B, and C in order n. The student will need to practice those skills in the manner that I will show, and also needs to practise them on some choice of music. I know that pieces X, Y and Z are perfect for those skills. I know where the pitfalls are, given the student's weaknesses and strengths ant this point, and how to use this given piece as a perfect teaching tool."
You do not want to remove the teaching tool from the teacher by imposing your own choices. You do not want to hamper the potential of your own progress.
Of course a poorish teacher may go along with everything you say and be happy to take your money. We adult students already have a handicap in this area, since too many teachers say they meet resistance, and have given up on teaching adults what they need - those of us who want to learn must be constantly on the guard with any new teacher that this doesn't happen to us.
-
Thanks Adodd for your clarification.
sorry dcstudio, I'm not at all matching your description ;D my friends actually mock me for wasting so much time playing and I don't have any relatives playing the piano to look up to, although I do admire some famous contemporary pianists that don't have anything to do with my family :) and to whom I listened to before started playing (Herbie Hancock, Hiromi Uehara... ). I do know what "obscure terms" like polyrhythm and circle of 5ths are because I study theory and also I played other instruments in the past: drums recently for a few months (all drummers always mention polyrhythms ;D ) and bass guitar for many years (played 60-70s rock music in a couple of bands as a teenager. Even took lessons with a teacher for one year. Yet somehow I progressed more in one year of self study at the piano then in several years of playing the bass).
But apparently you had some bad experiences with some of your students, so I totally understand where you're coming from.
1piano4joe, thank you very much for your very clear advice. Also, Chopin's Waltz in A Minor seems very interesting indeed. Doesn't seem so easy though ;D but I might include it in my wish-list.
Thank you also keypeg for your perspective.
I hope nobody will get offended if I say that it seems to me that some people on this forum are a little bit too judgmental and fast at jumping to conclusions and making suppositions about other people. There must a lot of guys who come here like with the objective to play the Appassionata as their first piece ever, so I understand your frustration with this kind of request, but even in that case, you know, live and let live. They might not have the same objective that you have at the piano. If their goal is only to play the Appassionata and nothing else, let them try to do it. Also, as I thought to have clarified in my previous post, that is not me: I don't have just the Clarfield list to follow; with Burgmuller, ABRSM, scales, arpeggios, reading, theory, etc., I honestly don't think that this is such an absurd study plan (which anyway, once again, is not the subject I was asking advice on in the first place), but I do recognize that the topic title I chose was a liiiiiittle bit misleading.
In any case, I'm just back from my first experience with the teacher. The previous student was working on a Burgmuller piece, so I thought "this bodes well". The guy is kind of... errr... not very young ;D and the time is very limited (30 minutes) so I didn't have the possibility to explain everything in detail. In any case, first thing he asked me to play a couple of my pieces for him. I played the Minuet in G and Fur Elise. I made a couple of errors in both pieces, as I expected :) He said he was quite impressed with my level and that also the position of my hand seemed alright. He only wasn't convinced by the fast part at the end of the second, ehm, variation (sorry, I don't know the technical term) of Fur Elise, as the notes were uneven.
So he made me work on some scales and arpeggios with particular emphasis on the thumbs and wrist movement in order to avoid unwanted accents and rigidity of the hand.
Then we worked on the first Hanon exercise and some variations of it to work the weak fingers more.
Finally he asked me what other repertory I wanted to tackle, I started listing the Clarfield pieces and after one second he kind of lit up and exclaimed "the Solfeggietto! We should work on this, it would be great for you!" so I was like "well, ok" and I took the sheet of the piece as I had it on my tablet.
While working on that he recommended that I work on my reading skills, on which I totally agree.
He didn't say anything in particular about the Burgmuller Op 100, so I think I will continue studying on it, but I will bring it up more in detail next time.
So, for the moment I'm moderately satisfied with the whole thing, but I will refrain from giving a definitive judgement. The teacher seems open enough on the repertory and also offered me some new insights on stuff that I had already done (namely scales, arpeggios and hanon). Let's see how it will go next time :)
Thanks a lot once again everybody for all your replies. Cheers!
-
I'm not sure Joe was trolling here. Infact I think he/she gave accurate advice.
There's a difference between busting a "troll" somebody who's clearly writing inaccurate posts to get a reaction, and insulting somebody that may have a lot of experience in one area, and be slightly baffled by a piece of music. It's not unusual.
that's very true addod and trollbuster is pretty rude. At the risk of playing "devil's advocate" however, someone who did not understand if he should re-strike 3 tied whole notes is at a very basic level, that is not a matter of being slightly confused by a piece. That is a lack of understanding and training and means joe's musical education was pretty limited.
Still Joe doesn't seem to be trying to pass himself off as something he's not. I am sure he is familiar with all of those pieces and he didn't outright claim that he had played the Fant. Imp. or the Nocturne in so many words. I am not sure what ticked off the trollbuster as he usually goes for much more pretentious and obnoxious posts than this. Joe does make some generalizations below that couldn't possibly come from his own experience but that doesn't make him a troll.
Hi kalospiano,
I am quite familiar with the pieces in your list.
My opinon which you asked for:
1. It is not in an accurate progressive order of difficulty but only a very crude one.
2. I would consider this a dream list of pieces to play in the future. Chopin and Debussy didn't compose any elementary pieces. Bach inventions would generally come after AMB notebook. Even the Clementi is a RCM grade 3 piece and the Schumann a RCM grade 6.
3. Some teachers spend a year using method books before assigning repertoire such as this. There's only a few pieces on the list that are appropriate for someone only playing a year.
4. There are much easier pieces by Beethoven, Kabalevsky, Mozart, Handel, Schumann and Bach. I would make a new list with these composers.
I hope I have been helpful, Joe.
P.S. Play the entertainer and not the Maple Leaf Rag.
P.P.S. Based on your tastes I think you might enjoy the Chopin waltz in A minor and it is considerably much more accessible than either the Nocturne or Fantaisie.
-
Thank you also keypeg for your perspective.
I hope nobody will get offended if I say that it seems to me that some people on this forum are a little bit too judgmental and fast at jumping to conclusions and making suppositions about other people....
I hope not to have been included in the "judgmental" and "conclusions" department. What I tried to do above all is to give you an overview of a larger perspective that you cannot have yet, for your own consideration. The way your new teacher jumped at the mention of the one piece as being the one where he can teach you what you need shows that he listened for your strengths and weaknesses and is looking for which material will best help you. If you follow not just what he advises in terms of pieces, scales, etudes etc., but also in any "how" - any silly seeming detail - and work with them in your practice, you may have something good happening. Also be prepared to relearn totally new perspectives to things you have already studied. That can open an amazing world.
Best of luck, and congratulations on that first lesson.
-
Hi all,
Okay, wow. I thought at some point trollbuster would come after me. That's what he does. I do find him rather entertaining and up to now spot on. However, I am quite surprised by his reaction to this one post in particular.
I want to say Thank You to all who came to my defense.
I have been posting here on Pianostreet since 2010, have over 300 posts and am listed as a Sr. Member and somehow managed to be labeled a troll. I have taken the time to respond to others looking for help and they have all been thankful and respectful, even now. Also, I welcome new members to Pianostreet.
Evidently, some of the newer members haven't read many of my posts. I always am very humble, polite and very upfront about only being an intermediate.
Anyway, in previous posts, I have been accused of being GRADE OBSESSED several times which I am. I have several different syllabi such as NZMEB, ABRSM, RCM and the Jane MaGrath's, "Guide to Standard Teaching and Performance Literature".
So, just because I can't play the pieces on Kalo's list it logically follows then that I couldn't have looked at the scores, listened to them performed or learned from a resource their relative order of difficulty to one another.
I mean seriously just look at this list. The 1st movement of Moonlight is listed after Chopin's most famous nocturne and Debussy's Arabesque. So, clearly this list is NOT accurate and this makes me a troll.
And yet the list is somewhat correct putting the Burgmuller Arabesque (which yes I played years ago) near the top as being easiest (RCM grade 3 etude) and the Fantaisie near the bottom as being considerably more difficult (beyond RCM grade 10) and the Bach inventions in the middle which are of course more difficult than the Burgmuller and easier than the Fantaisie.
Does it really matter whether or not I can play them? Exactly, how does my inability to play them make the order of difficulty wrong? This list was compiled by a list of Canadian teachers with doctorates. I would never have the audacity to tell them they are wrong. And such a clearly, grossly incorrect statement could only come from a troll.
So, I'm a troll because I asked for help in the Student's corner and then try to "Pay It Forward" and generously give back taking the time to help someone who asks for help.
Okay, I'm a troll. Just call me Shrek, lol.
I have read many, okay probably all of Bernhard's posts and he said to make such a list of pieces and the importance of playing pieces you love.
Anyway, Kalo could be my doppleganger. I have the same exact pieces on my dream list to maybe one day learn and be able to play. If this is a crime, so sue me! I had this very same exact question answered years ago. So, I'm just passing it on. Since he and I have very similar tastes I thought I could be of invaluable assistance. Sorry, if some of you here disagree.
Kalo, here is an example of what I had in mind for point 4 in my previous post.
Say for example, Beethoven could be:
1. Ukrainian Folk Song Op. 107 no. 3 (RCM grade 1)
2. Beautiful Minka Op. 107 no. 7 (RCM grade 2)
3. Sonatina in G 1st movement (RCM grade 3)
4. German Dance no. 9 in Eb major (RCM grade 4)
This is a progressive list and students love them which I have been told many times by different teachers. I like them and can play them all. I think you will too. Save the Pathetique for maybe 10 years from now.
As Bugs bunny always says, "That's all folks", Joe.
-
sorry dcstudio, I'm not at all matching your description
no need to be sorry, I never said that you did.. I only gave my very prejudiced view and not to be rude but to let you know the common attitudes of long-time teachers as well as why they think that way. They sit around in teachers clubs discussing these situations at length (and it's excruciatingly boring but you have to sit through it or they drop you from the club ::)) I guess I don't clarify that enough and I apologize for that. There are many common scenarios piano teachers experience and though each student is unique and different these same scenarios happen time and time again. We tend to get a little punchy after several decades of it.. ;D if have this information ahead of time well then maybe you the student can take better advantage of your lesson time. If you recognize that your teacher has seen this same thing as well then maybe you won't let her classify you the way I just did. ;) Be honest with your teacher about your skills and don't try and impress her/him. If they are experienced they are beyond being fooled so don't try. Again, I say this because I come across it so much not because that's what I think you will do. I am just trying to give a teachers perspective that's all. I do come off sounding a little like a "know-it-all" but come on what piano teacher doesn't. lol. :D
-
Hi all,
I'm confused.
HEY JOE
this is what you wrote about tied notes
"Hi all,
Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.
So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.
Is that correct?"
IF YOU HAD TO ASK THIS QUESTION YOU ARE A BEGINNER QUIT HANDING OUT ADVICE--YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AT READING MUSIC JUST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO SOUND SMART BUT FAILING MISERABLY!!!! YOU NEVER RESTRIKE TIED NOTES DUMBASS THAT'S WHAT TIED MEANS IN EVERY CASE
The post in question is "replaying tied whole notes".
Every single response was yes you restrike tied notes.
iansinclair wrote, "There are certain advantages to playing the organ...
The short answer to your question is that yes, it may be necessary to restrike the tied note at some point. The trick is to find a place where the restrike is possible -- and make sure that it is not obvious. This will take some experimentation on your part. Rubinstein, by the way, was an absolute master at that."
chopinlover01 wrote, As Ian said, it is sometimes nessecary; however, playing the tied note loud enough to allow it to sustain longer is often a good or nessecary idea, provided it doesn't disrupt the current musical mood.
cbreemer wrote, I would rather re-strike such a note at a suitable place than fiddle with the dynamics to "keep it audible". You can do it quite subtly and I don't see a problem with it in some cases, like in said musette every 4 bars. Also, even if a string's sound has decayed, as long as it stays pressed the damper is up and the string will vibrate sympathetically and still produce some sound. This
probably works better in louder pieces, a certain volume is needed to make a string resonate).
Just don't worry about it too much, feel free to re-strike the note if you think it's important. I'm sure Bach and Liszt would not have minded if it helps the music along.
and finally michael_c wrote, By all means try the Bach with an organ sounds: that's one of the instruments Bach had at his disposal. In this case, no need to re-strike that note. Try it as well with a harpsichord: this time some re-striking will be necessary, since the harpsichord sound decays even faster than a piano sound. Note how the piece sounds fine on both instruments.
I'd probably re-strike the note at the beginning of each 4-bar phrase, but I'd always be prepared to adapt to the particular piano I'm playing.
It's easy to see my confusion when trollbuster wrote, "YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AT READING MUSIC JUST SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO SOUND SMART BUT FAILING MISERABLY!!!! YOU NEVER RESTRIKE TIED NOTES DUMBASS THAT'S WHAT TIED MEANS IN EVERY CASE"
So, all the responses to the contrary are wrong. I am wrong. I am a beginner and a dumbass.
Rubenstein is wrong too?
Well, "I don't know but I've been told a big legged woman ain't got no soul", Joe.
-
*Slow clap.
-
dcstudio, I do not doubt your experiences and recognize at least some of what you describe. However, the motivation may at times be different than what you surmise. In fact, the misunderstandings that lie underneath may present a real hurdle. I'll give it a try:
1. We come from 12 or more years of schooling in the school system where we are trained to function in a certain way. If you have never had lessons, you're likely to think that music teachers want the same thing that your high school and college teacher wanted. That is: you prepare yourself with knowledge before you even enter the college, you do your research, and you start off being well organized with a plan. So the student who comes in with a plan, and who knows all about circles of fifths etc. expects you to be pleased with his diligence.
2. How often do you read an adult wanting to "prepare" for starting with a teacher in a few months - because he thinks his teacher wants him to already be able to do some things. Ofc as a teacher you have to undo that "preparation" which is harder than shaping the student from scratch. But this is not out of hubris or wanting to live up to the reputation of Great Uncle Charlie. At least if they ask here, we can head them off at the pass. :)
3. No experience of how learning happens. When it comes to theoretical things in music, these mesh with actual practical experiencing of that theory. The little kid has to get it the right way, because he is concrete and physical in his makeup. He has to absorb things bit by bit, while the adult can get a summary from a book all in one shot - misses an essential thing - and doesn't know it.
Unfortunately in this area there are also teaching approaches "for adults" that say since adults can conceptualize and want to go fast, teaching should go that route. The problem can come from both sides.
4. Something that I ran into repeatedly when talking privately to other adults - The idea that being able to do well in music depends on "talent", that if you don't do well (instantly) you lack talent, and that teachers want to see that "talent" (that perfection - that musical playing). There is a real fear that a teacher secretly wants to reject a student who "seems to lack talent". The student desperately tries to impress his teacher to ward off that rejection, while the teacher thinks the student is "showing off" and is disgusted - said disgust being read as "rejection at lack of talent". ::)
Linked with this is a confusion about what a teacher actually wants and expects - that is, a good teacher. If you want your student to master playing one hand soft and one hand loud - or control playing evenly without a stiff wrist - then that is what you want your student to practice at home, and show signs of having done so in the next lesson. You are asking for something simple. If the student does not play brilliantly like Lang Lang or Argerich, but has gone one step further toward the hand soft / hand loud - you are pleased - and the student is not a failure as he thinks.
On this last point, a fellow student I used to chat with by e-mail a decade ago declared "Is that all? This is so much easier!"
Of course there are students who want to show off, take short cuts, consider themselves brilliant and so on. But these other things do exist and SOME of the time might lie beneath what you and your fellow teachers see.
-
by definition a tied note is only struck once :) I am sorry but the mean old trollbuster is right about that.
If it is a transcription of an organ piece let's say and that tied note is meant to continue on at the same volume for some time in order to stay true to the music then you must make adjustments for that by, as inaudibly as possible, restriking that key so that the note will continue to ring--this happens most commonly in Baroque music--however if you were playing it on the organ you would not restrike the key as the notation indicates the notes are tied and have one value..
that's why they were telling you to restrike it.. because in with that particular piece you can make a tiny exception and "cheat" by restriking the key in the interest of keeping that pitch sustained. if it was written for piano and meant to be restruck it would be notated that way. Tied notes are only (audibly) struck once.
-
Hi all,
I learned about tied notes when I was 8 years old. That was over 47 years ago. I never rearticulated a tied note. I never ever heard of such a thing. I had private year round clarinet lessons for over 10 years and was a music major in college. I even taught woodwinds at Halco Music center.
I know the definition. I learnt it over 40 years ago. I was taught and thought just like trollbuster that you never restrike (articulate) tied notes in every case.
but then I never learned piano....
and was only many years later edified (and only by asking and appearing stupid) that you sometimes "cheat" in piano and that there are exceptions in piano (probably other instruments too but who knows) which now dcstudio also concurs.
Piano is an entirely different animal and requires a classically trained instrumentalist to question some of the most basic things.
This has resulted in being labeled inexperienced in reading music! I have been 1st chair clarinet in band for 10 years. How could I possibly be an inexperienced reader? There is no memorizing (like in piano), no looking down at your hands (like in piano), it's all reading, right there on the ugly black music stand! The only thing you look at is the conductor (unlike piano generally).
That's just how it is, Joe.
-
Let's please look at Joe's question which was highlighted by "trollbuster"
"Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.
So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.
Is that correct?"
He identified the piece and the consideration, as a student near the start of his journey on piano. I'd hope that people answering the question would be familiar with the piece, or at least look it up.
The consideration being .... a single note being held for 12 beats, on an instrument where once you strike a note, it gradually fades - and only lasts at all if you hold the note down or use the pedal.
Here is the piece with notation
&index=15
Maybe the critic is not a teacher. I would hope that any teacher worth his/her salt would see it as reasonable and sensible question.
And in fact, this type of thing got discussed by my own teacher a few years ago, when we looked at a Bach where a note was sustained on and on and on (longer than here), the fact that on piano it does not make sense to play it that way, and that either one must accept that the note will disappear, or one has to restrike it.
Here is a professional performance of the piece on harpsichord, showing us how that musician handled it.
This should not have been brought up at all. If there is criticism of Joe's advice to the asker, then I would like to see any wrong advice he gave to be highlighted and "outed", rather than "these people are ok for giving help / these other people are not" through some kind of prejudgment.
-
By the way, that series of pieces were written as teaching pieces for students, so it isn't even nonsensical for Joe to have been practising it, rather than some glory piece. I also suspect that Bach wanted his students to ask just such questions.
-
Hey joe
I am a troll and I enjoy pissing people off.. in your case I was mistaken about the tied notes that was a valid question you never learned piano fair enough.. so a troll apology FWIW
another member just sent my troll juice boiling.
-
Hi keypeg,
Thank you for your well written, thoughtful replies. I don't know how many times I reread them. I really, really needed that affirmation very much as I was starting to lose faith in pianostreet. Thank you again for making those valid points which obviously needed to be stated.
People ask, "Where's Bernhard"? and "What happened to m1469"? Swagmaster420x replied, "She was literally bullied into resignation from the forum"!
I've read many responses to others seeking help and they were instructed to be much more specific and not so general. That is what I try to do in hopes of getting an intelligent answer from a knowledgeable, accomplished professional.
Sadly, that doesn't always happen. In fact, sometimes there's no response at all. I truly believe that some members don't respond not because they don't know the answer but because of all the negative cross talk. I can't say I blame them. Who needs that hassle?
Time and time again, someone asks a question and someone else answers. The OP is appreciative and says thank you then some 3rd party, miscreant troublemaker chimes in and takes a big sh*t on everything! Nice huh?
"There's something wrong with the world today, I don't know what it is" sings Steven Tyler from Aerosmith.
I was taught, "There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers". I guess it's just the state of the world today.
Thank you again keypeg. Your a class act.
P.S. This is the link
-
I truly believe that some members don't respond not because they don't know the answer but because of all the negative cross talk.
There are two sides to every coin. The other side involves people who know a great deal who don't get listened to. It also involves teachers who have experienced too often where adults - both parents, and older students, ignore their advice, don't try to listen to them - and they don't want to go through the same thing in a forum, because it is disheartening. Those negative experiences can also lead to the nasty tone. At some point we need to break the cycle - but maybe everybody has a role, even "trollbuster".
I grew up in an era without the Internet, and could not access the knowledge I would have liked to have in music. I first came to a forum when I was studying another instrument, with my first ever teacher, and there were problems. I remember what it was like, so I try to give back. But I also have the luxury of not having to do this day in and day out.
And the negative things people see - these do exist - the one-day wonders who want to reach high things in no time, who think that they are already playing great works wonderfully - which is also an insult to anyone who has put in the work and knows what's involved and what is missing. There is reason for the resentment and the negatives.
-
it's a pity that this thread took such a weird turn, but I think everything has been clarified now, and even trollbuster apologized.
1piano4joe, I appreciate very much your advice. Thanks for the suggestion of pieces. I suppose RCM is something similar to ABRSM. I think that I will not add them to my repertory, though, because with all the stuff from Burgmuller and ABRSM plus Solfeggietto I feel that I have already too much on my plate :)
Keypeg and dcstudio, I appreciate very much your interventions in this thread. If I may, I would venture to ask something else on which maybe you could offer your perspective.
I might be looking too much forward in time, since yesterday it was only my first lesson with the teacher, but, as I was practicing the Solfeggietto yesterday, I remembered a video that I had seen some time ago:
This is honestly what I imagined as a great lesson.
The woman in the video explains all the details about the piece I'm studying, the key, how it is divided in sections and how some sections are repeated with just a change in tonality, etc...
This seems to be so much detailed!
My teacher yesterday, instead, maybe also because of lack of time, simply made me take the sheet music and asked me to read, correcting me on the hands position and on the errors as I was playing ("that's e-flat, not natural") but not really offering much insight about the piece itself and its structure.
Do you think that could be some "alarm sign" about the quality of the teaching, or should I just stop worrying and chill? :)
-
I wouldn't worry already right now. It was you first lesson! Give it some time and who knows what will come...
BW.
Marijn
-
My teacher yesterday, instead, maybe also because of lack of time, simply made me take the sheet music and asked me to read, correcting me on the hands position and on the errors as I was playing ("that's e-flat, not natural") but not really offering much insight about the piece itself and its structure.
Do you think that could be some "alarm sign" about the quality of the teaching, or should I just stop worrying and chill? :)
If she is like me then she is trying to read your strengths and weaknesses so she has a starting point. If she explained everything first she would not be able to objectively asses your skill level. Some students read well and others play well... they both respond differently. Both are teachable though. It takes a few weeks to establish a working relationship with a teacher... no red flags here. :) as of yet anyway.
-
i
I might be looking too much forward in time, since yesterday it was only my first lesson with the teacher, but, as I was practicing the Solfeggietto yesterday, I remembered a video that I had seen some time ago:
This is honestly what I imagined as a great lesson.
The woman in the video ......
My teacher yesterday, instead, maybe also because of lack of time, simply made me take the sheet music and asked me to read, correcting me on the hands position and on the errors as I was playing ("that's e-flat, not natural") but not really offering much insight about the piece itself and its structure.
Do you think that could be some "alarm sign" about the quality of the teaching, or should I just stop worrying and chill? :)
The only alarm bells I have concern the video that you have highlighted, and I am exercising every ounce of self-control to not express something I'd later regret. I would not for the life of me be "taught" by that person. I could go into it blow by blow but won't.
What you have described in regards to your new teacher sounds to me like TEACHING.
I'd also like to point out something essential about teaching:
In lessons there is a back and forth and a development. The teacher gives you a task and an instruction after observing you --- you go home and do what you have learned and in the manner that you were told to do it. --- In the next lesson the teacher observes you, how you progressed by doing those things, what might have gone "off", what worked, and where you are now. Then you are taught the next thing. ---- Again you go home - same thing --- next lesson, continuation.
Your skills, your knowledge, and your ear all get developed gradually and incrementally. Each stage makes you ready for the next one.
Video lessons have a different nature, because this back and forth does not exist. Nonetheless, I have seen and experienced some excellent lessons via pre-recorded video, and if that video is for relatively new learners (actually any) I would not consider it one of them. When you study per remote video (I have) then a good teacher will have pre-planned the lesson and broken it down. It requires meticulous planning. You will get an overview of the whole, a breakdown of the stages to go through - and it is up to you as a student to mimic the gradual development of traditional lessons. The teacher will need to keep in mind what knowledge and skills that the students won't have yet, and build these into the lesson incrementally. The best I have seen of this kind are Jaak Sikk, Piano-ologist, and Paul Barton for more advanced material and assuming that students already have some kind of background.
Having seen that video, I would not go near anything being taught there. That lesson is definitely not superior to what your teacher has given you, I'm rather sure. Even keeping in mind that this is a different teaching format.
GIVE YOUR NEW TEACHER A CHANCE. :)
-
If she explained everything first she would not be able to objectively assess your skill level.
Not only that, but she explained in the manner of that linked video, what are the chances that the student can actually do any of it? Or that the student would get at some strange strategies trying to do it.
-
, as I was practicing the Solfeggietto yesterday, I remembered a video that I had seen some time ago:
This seems to be so much detailed!
"seems" to be. Sofleggietto is a pretty elementary piece of music... it's catchy as heck don't get me wrong--but it's played by students because it's pretty easy. The reverence she seems to have for it is odd. She also states she worked very hard to learn it (you mean you don't KNOW it?) and then goes into the music history angle quoting Mozart. She speaks more passionately about the anecdotes than in the actual explanation -- which seems a bit garbled. Those color coded charts and copies she made--IDK--in my experience that kind of thing is most often done by very young teachers who feel they have to "add" something to the existing lesson plan. Then she raves on about how wonderful they are and how she adores them-- they are for sale right? of course they are. I couldn't forget how to play Solf if I tried.. I have taught it 100s of times. Generally speaking it's not a "problem" piece for most except for their desire to play it at light speed.
I could be wrong but the point of the video doesn't seem to be to make this easier for the student.. an experienced pianist would have been listening to this particular piece for decades, they played it and most likely someone has played it in every recital they have ever participated in. She seems like she just discovered it, that does say something about her experience level.. although she presents herself as someone who is highly trained and knowledgeable . who knows... maybe they don't play it as much in her part of the world...kinda doubt it.. but maybe
-
My teacher yesterday, instead, maybe also because of lack of time, simply made me take the sheet music and asked me to read, correcting me on the hands position and on the errors as I was playing ("that's e-flat, not natural") but not really offering much insight about the piece itself and its structure.
Do you think that could be some "alarm sign" about the quality of the teaching, or should I just stop worrying and chill? :)
You've never had a lesson before, what are you comparing your session too? a youtube video?
I'm further struggling to understand your logic.
The youtube link you posted appears to be an "all-in-one" Where she's gone above and beyond to make a piece sound as simple as possible and appeal to a lot of people with jargon.
You've highlighted that your teacher identified incorrect hand positions, and that you aren't even hitting the right notes... If i were a teacher, i'd certainly be focusing on the most basic points rather than explaining the structure of the piece, i'd want to be sure you're competent enough to even start/continue learning it before allowing you to potentially waste more time on it.
Also theory should be taught progressively you don't just get to grade 5 and they go, right now you can play the piano HERE'S SOME THEORY. Therefore your teacher doesn't know how much you know already, (unless you have extensively told them all your music knowledge) and so a 5 minute explanation of the structure could turn into 20 minutes taken from your lesson going through counterpoints, inversions and god knows what before you knew what "Sonata Form" was for example.
I'd conclude by saying that you already advised you watched the youtube video already, prior to your lesson? So had your teacher explained the structure, you would have already knew it anyway and so would have been a waste of your time and money? (assuming the solfeggietto was the piece you were attempting in your lesson)
I feel sorry for your teacher.
-
(https://m.quickmeme.com/img/9f/9f58170af3de1d0b87f9cd60fd251eeca633ff8b140129ac43806074f5593e65.jpg)
lol, im late to the party been curious why this thread kept popping up as most recently replied to on boards summary.
fewpoints ill throw into the fray
1. op , you said you self learned for a yea, i would ignore this and consider that you wasted time and instead practiced bad habits for a year.
"he who teaches himself has a fool for a teacher".
2. choose to go with instruction or get all spun up over.internet videos. not both.
3. music theory and music history and musicology are different fields. related yes, but different in how they are studied and how they should be learned. if you want to know all the aspects of works you learn, the you shuld first set out to study these subjects to gave proper background and knowledge base and know the lingo. find a local cummunity college or univesity ir similar. enroll. invest in yourself and quality coursework if you want to learn it.
-
Hi Adodd. This might be just an impression of mines and I might be wrong, but I feel that you have kind of a negative attitude towards me, and I'm not sure why, as I don't think I've ever done anything to offend you or anybody else in this forum. There's no need to always assume the worst when somebody says something.
Even feeling sorry for my teacher? I'm just expressing some concerns here because I want to identify potential problems as soon as possible since I'm an adult and I feel I don't have time to waste.
"you weren't hitting the right notes". Of course: I was sight reading! That's one of my weakest points. I was recognising the wrong notes as soon as I was playing them, since I've already listened to the piece multiple times. It's just that, while sight reading, it was hard for me to hit the right note the very first time I was playing it.
"you watched the youtube video already, prior to your lesson". Dude, I watched that video MONTHS ago. I didn't even know that my teacher would have made me play the Solfeggietto. It just came back to my mind while I was practicing the piece. I didn't remember the structure of the piece when I was studying it with my teacher since I had casually seen the video much earlier in time.
Thank you marijn, dcstudio and keypeg for your answers. I must say I'm rather surprised :) I agree that the piece is elementary and that the teacher probably needs some time to assess my level, but why do you see this lady's teaching style so negatively? I thought it would be useful for a student to have an indication of the structure of the piece, the theory behind and also, why not, some historical background (if the quote from Mozart can be considered as such :) ). As keypeg said, he's exercising every ounce of his self-control to avoid criticizing in details... May I kindly ask you to refrain from controlling yourself and just let it go? :) I would be quite interested in knowing more in detail what's wrong with that kind of teaching, especially concerning the "strange strategies" that a student might think of applying, I'm not sure that I get what you mean.
BTW, I totally love Paul Barton. That guy is so awesome! But I've never seen his tutorials, only watched his performance videos, but I guess he would be too advanced for me. Not that I intend watching other tutorial videos: as I said, I had seen that video months ago and I don't intend relying on online tutorials any more :)
As you all suggested, I will definitely keep going with my current teacher. It was only the first lesson, after all!
Hi Visitor, thank you also for intervening in this thread. I know I might be appearing pretentious saying this, but I really don't consider the last year of self-learning like wasted time. As I said, my teacher was quite impressed with my playing after 1 year of self-study and also told me that I was having my hands in a good position after I played the two pieces from my repertory (I must admit, though, that the hands positions in the Solfeggietto seemed rather unusual to me and I would have wasted some time if I had to study it by myself). I am quite satisfied with the repertory I built during this year and I spent zero euros for it. Still, as I said already, I decided to start taking lessons mainly to get help with dynamics and pedalling, and to have a third party judgement.
Concerning your second point, I was checking out internet videos in the past, that's why I brought up that link here in this thread. I'm not checking online tutorials anymore.
-
Hi Adodd. This might be just an impression of mines and I might be wrong, but I feel that you have kind of a negative attitude towards me, and I'm not sure why, as I don't think I've ever done anything to offend you or anybody else in this forum. There's no need to always assume the worst when somebody says something.
Even feeling sorry for my teacher? I'm just expressing some concerns here because I want to identify potential problems as soon as possible since I'm an adult and I feel I don't have time to waste.
"you weren't hitting the right notes". Of course: I was sight reading! That's one of my weakest points. I was recognising the wrong notes as soon as I was playing them, since I've already listened to the piece multiple times. It's just that, while sight reading, it was hard for me to hit the right note the very first time I was playing it.
"you watched the youtube video already, prior to your lesson". Dude, I watched that video MONTHS ago. I didn't even know that my teacher would have made me play the Solfeggietto. It just came back to my mind while I was practicing the piece. I didn't remember the structure of the piece when I was studying it with my teacher since I had casually seen the video much earlier in time.
You don't have time to waste and yet you insist on your own practice regime. Your logic offends me.
Do you know why children make better students. Because they don't question everything as adults do until they truly have the knowledge to do so. They get on with it and do as they're told, (within reason) they don't start a lesson with an idea of how THEY think it should go.
Why do you think that your year of "research" and questionable progress should allow you to anywhere near compare yourself, your ability or knowledge to that of a teacher that's gone through the musical education system and worked their butt off to get any kind of recognition.
My "negativity" is your confusion with hearing things you don't want to hear and on several occasions you've built up an image of yourself with posts on here that do not give me confidence you are on any sort of path to succession.
It doesn't personally bother me, but I feel inclined for whatever reason to make you see some sense.
-
Adodd, I don't have time to waste so I simply and humbly made a question to the more expert people in this forum just to understand if it was a good idea to continue with the current teacher or not. Since it's a professional that I pay, you know, I would like to select the best one. And I've already decided to give it a try based on the previous answers from other users, so I'm not sure what you're contributing to here. But noted that you're easily offended.
I don't know where you've taken that I feel that my ability or knowledge is on par with that of my teacher. Here I made a comparison between the lesson taken in person with my teacher and an online lesson from another teacher. No judgement whatsoever on my personal abilities and knowledge.
Until here I've just asked for further details and clarifications, I never dared telling anybody stuff like "you're wrong" or "the way I do it is right". I just said "I would like to know why this and this". This is a forum and if you don't like my questions you don't have to answer. For sure I perfer no answer rather than an annoyed or offensive one.
-
Adodd, I don't have time to waste so I simply and humbly made a question to the more expert people in this forum just to understand if it was a good idea to continue with the current teacher or not.
So you ask the advice of a bunch of strangers that could just have made a tonne of posts with no real knowledge whatsoever and if there was a consensus, just drop the teacher?
Again with your 'logic'
Do you know how you know if you have a good teacher or not, do you progress? Which surely you will not be able to tell from 1 lesson.
If your teacher has the actual qualifications backing them, you shouldn't need to be raising such a question to people on the internet.
I reiterate Visitors point:
"2. choose to go with instruction or get all spun up over.internet videos. not both."
Same can be applied with forum advice vs teacher advice.
Finally you didn't compare two lessons. What you compared was YOUR actual piano lesson, with some lady off the internet who made a pretty Youtube video. (Please note at this stage i'm not suggesting any credibility should be taken away from this lady, I do not know who she is)
Kalospiano can I just bring you to reality for a second, without trying to sound like i'm just getting offensive here as that's not my aim. Words over the internet are an interesting thing.
An average piano teacher, teaches an average pianist. What do I mean by this?
Take a small exert from Evengy Kissin's "Story"
Anna Pavlovna Kantor, a renowned piano teacher at the prestigious Gnessen Music School for Gifted Children
If you become anything special you will get taught by a better piano teacher, usually by referral. A good teacher will advise you this.
At this very early stage in what I am assuming you hope to be a piano career, I would not concern yourself with teaching methods, lessons, and the small details until you have a real firm grasp of piano technique.
That doesn't mean it's wrong to ask questions, but what it does mean as the english saying goes "too many cooks spoil the broth" Don't ask questions everywhere, especially the internet in hope for definite solid advice. Ask your teacher.
-
Adodd, you make it look like I'm asking for advice in a videogaming forum.
This is a piano forum! There are teachers here! Dcstudio even appeared on the news recently, if I'm not mistaken, and I can listen to her music in her channel. I think advice from these people is more valuable than just "anybody's" advice.
"Do you know how you know if you have a good teacher or not, do you progress? Which surely you will not be able to tell from 1 lesson. "
I've already said that I will be continuing taking lessons with this teacher, so I'm not sure what you're reiterating this for.
"2. choose to go with instruction or get all spun up over.internet videos. not both."
I've already said I'm not following tutorials anymore, so I'm not sure what you're reiterating this for.
"Finally you didn't compare two lessons. What you compared was YOUR actual piano lesson" that's exactly what I said, so I'm not sure what you're reiterating this for.
I repeat: I came here just asking for advice on the "progressiveness" of a repertory list.
Somebody gave respectful answers, somebody gave annoyed/amused answers about my personal plan (which was not even what I had asked in the first place). Don't know why. I'm an ignorant asking for advice in a forum called Student's Corner, so I don't see why the annoyance in these answers. If you have to give an angry answer, I prefer to answer at all.
My second question concerned an opinion concerning the quality of my lesson and a comparison of it with another lesson. I'm paying a guy here to teach me, so am I entitled to try and investigate in order not to pay money in vain? Yes, I'm asking a bunch of strangers... In a piano forum! And it's not like I'm gonna take every word like gold (because if you haven't noticed yet, I like challenging other people's opinion. Not for disrespect, but just because I like to make informed decisions) but still, I've said it multiple times, I prefer hearing many sides instead of just one.
I personally believe, Adodd, that you have had some bad experiences with some unrespectful beginners in this forum, and now you're identifying me with them for some reason. But I am not them. You don't know me and you don't know my playing. Actually, it shouldn't even matter to you. I'm just a guy in a forum asking for advice, if people want to be so nice to give it. I didn't offend anybody and I apologize if any of my posts might have led anybody to think that I was trying to offend. But you Adodd, didn't really do too much to hide some kind of resentment towards me. But I've understood what your opinion is on this matter, I swear I did and I really appreciate your answer. I just wish it had been a bit more respectful, that's all.
-
I just wish it had been a bit more respectful, that's all.
Noted, I take your comments on board.
-
there is experience here on the forum.. and Kalo, I should interject here that the experience seems to be in line with Adodds views. He himself has a great deal of experience and not once have I ever heard him try and throw miscellaneous facts out there just to sound like an expert--which happens daily around here. He knows what it takes to do this...he's been there. He is also very aware of the common misconceptions students have about music.
I have had many adult students bring me their self-made plans for learning to play the piano. If I had ever seen just one that was diligently and objectively researched and compiled -- and not just a list of pieces in a predetermined order--I would shout it from the rooftops. It's comical to most of us.. which is often perceived as disrespect... and I guess it is.
So why is it not even slightly disrespectful of a beginner to approach a seasoned professional and then proceed to dictate their entire lesson? It's like saying "well, I know you had to practice and work hard before you could play, I know you are highly trained both as a performer and teacher--but I think my way is better" because I spent a year on the internet looking this up.
does this even cross their minds?
I mean this is in the nicest way, Kalo--again... this is from my personal experience and the experience of every other piano teacher I have ever known... I have no idea what your motivation is because I don't know you.
-
Hi dcstudio, I'm glad to hear from you again.
Now, your post is what I feel is an example of a respectful and constructive critique.
But when I read stuff like "Your logic offends me", now, that only sounds haughty and is something completely different, but I hope we can leave that to the past.
I am 100% sure that Adodd is got much much more experience than me, just as you and keypeg and many other people in this forum, that's exactly why I dare addressing you my questions.
I also understand that you might find comical the thought of a student just going to a teacher pretending to want to play a fixed list of pieces. Which is something I didn't do, although my teacher asked himself some pieces that I wanted to play, and the Solfeggietto on my list happened to be something he would want me to practice.
During these two days from my first lesson I've practiced exactly what my teacher told me to, namely a scale, an arpeggio and the piece, but I hope it's of no surprise that I practice something else as well, since I try to do at least three hours a day on the piano (much more on weekends) which is not a lot, but definitely allows to practice more than only one scale, one arpeggio and one piece.
And what I practice is not something that I simply pulled out of my head: I've taken it from the ABRSM syllabus and from various books, and I honestly doubt that adding this stuff to my program with the teacher might be considered irrespectful, just as I don't see irrespectful for a student in a geometry class to study advanced calculus by himself, if he manages to understand anything of it.
Is it disrespectful for a beginner to question a seasoned professional? Well, I would say that it depends: saying "I want to do this and that's it" is probably disrespectful. Saying "do you think it would be possible to tailor your program according to this idea of mine?" is a humble question that might or might not receive a positive answer, for reasons that can be right or wrong.
Is it absolutely forbidden to question a teacher's word, also considering that we pay them to receive a service? I strongly believe it's always better to investigate things in depth instead of just accepting an higher commandment, which does not mean that I won't end up accepting it anyway: just that I will do it with a greater awareness.
I would just like to give a simple example of why sometimes it can be good to question a teacher's instruction. I was born in Italy, and at school I had a French teacher who teached me to speak French... with the Italianest pronunciation as possible. When, many years later, I went to actually study in France, I could hardly understand what the French people were saying. Their pronunciation were completely different from what I was expecting. My teacher had filled my head with wrong notions for 5 long years. It took me a while to understand what French is really pronounced like.
If someone came to me telling me that their new teacher just told him/her to pronounce a French word in my old teacher's style, I would immediately advise him/her to ditch that teacher. Would that be disrespectful, or just common sense?
This is just a silly example, but is indeed part of my backstory on why I'm always suspicious of other people's expertise. I could add that I wouldn't be agnostic now if I had not respectfully question my family's Christian education. Or even that, if it had not been for the war, Germany would still be Nazi without people questioning some imposed values. A certain dose of skepticism can be healthy sometimes, and forming our own opinions about something is important.
This is why I asked for comments here. Not just for accepting your opinion blindly, but simply to gather elements to form a more well rounded opinion on how to judge the quality of a teacher. And I tried to do this without showing disrespect to anyone.
Having said this, I hope we're all friends again ;D and I still kind of hope that some of you can advise me more in detail on why you think that the lesson type of the video I showed should be avoided. As I said, I'm just interested on hearing what you think, I don't want to criticize one method and exhalt the other, but if you prefer not commenting further after all this discussion, I understand.
BTW, the name's Kalos Piano, not Kalo's Piano ;D ;D
-
Hi kalospiano,
While it's a FACT that ALL teachers have both their strengths and weakness, it is also a FACT that there are people who have a problem with this idea. I just don't understand these people. Here's why.
There are good and bad restaurants, yes? There are good and bad car mechanics, yes? There are good and bad doctors, yes? Why on earth should teachers be any different? They're not!
Everything marijn1999, dcstudio and keypeg said was 110% accurate. I would have mentioned some of these things if I were to respond but my opinion like Rodney Dangerfield's gets no respect.
You are doing everything right:
1. Burgmuller and ABRSM are fine! It's a plan, right?
2. You have a teacher, great. Is he/she good? Probably, but only time will tell.
3. Your year on your own was NOT a waste of time. It's possible to have bad habits even with a teacher. I'm sure you learned a lot which your current teacher verified!
4. You ask questions. That's an excellent student! Teachers are not mind readers.
5. Your using all resources at your disposal, right? Books, computers, videos, etc.
There are very good instructional videos on YouTube. Unfortunately, there are also many, many bad ones. It may offend some but I see some awful ones from teachers. I am in complete agreement with keypeg on this point.
There is one teacher who plays wrong notes, uses no dynamics, obvious inefficient fingerings and has no consideration for articulaton whatsoever! I, like keypeg, will not say who this is. I really don't think I have to since it's so glaringly obvious.
So, how do you tell? Did it help you? Did you learn something? Anything? That's how!
Even just listening can be beneficial. I use UIPianoPed for that purpose. Absolutely impeccable performances by professors with doctorates. Nuanced playing par excellence.
I hope I have been helpful, Joe.
-
Is it absolutely forbidden to question a teacher's word, also considering that we pay them to receive a service? I strongly believe it's always better to investigate things in depth instead of just accepting an higher commandment, which does not mean that I won't end up accepting it anyway: just that I will do it with a greater awareness.
in no way do I mean to suggest you should not question your teacher... please do--it shows thinking on your part and a good teacher will be more than happy to answer and explain. I am also speaking from a very generalized point of view. You have made 1 list--I have seen too many to count. These misconceptions are not really entirely the fault of the student... you guys have so much access to information these days. I had no forum of pianists to discuss things with or YT with billions of videos to watch and compare. It was a totally different world---everything you knew about the piano came from your teacher. Talk about misconceptions.. lol.
there are the old-timers like myself... brought up in a piano bubble until we got to University and saw that there were 1000s just like us.. and now there is the new generation. You guys have seen more pianists perform live on the internet by the time you are 10 than we would have seen in 5 lifetimes. The rules have changed so drastically--and in many ways for the better.
before the internet--I had seen exactly 8 different concert pianists perform live in a formal setting... and I had almost all of my friends beat in that department.
8 pianists.... ??? think about it.
-
During these two days from my first lesson I've practiced exactly what my teacher told me to, namely a scale, an arpeggio and the piece, but I hope it's of no surprise that I practice something else as well, since I try to do at least three hours a day on the piano (much more on weekends) which is not a lot, but definitely allows to practice more than only one scale, one arpeggio and one piece.
Man, I feel you, but just how do you structure your practice routine? i'm curious to know. Since my situation is somewhat similar to yours, I also have 3-4 hrs of practice time, and the only assignments given to me when I first started with my teacher were, 5 hanon exercises, 3-4 czerny 599 etudes and the invention 8. Even with these simple pieces, I had a hard time practicing all of them in 4 hours without getting exhausted midway. Then again, I was a an adult beginner to begin with, so I really didn't have any idea if I'm doing the right thing.(luckily I am).
Is it absolutely forbidden to question a teacher's word, also considering that we pay them to receive a service?
Maybe there are strict teachers, but I have yet to encounter them, since I hit the jackpot with my current teacher. I always questioned my teacher, in sessions, in this forum(look at the posts pf keypeg always scolded me.), it's all right to question him/her since you are really curious about how her methods of teaching will affect your overall playing. It's a sign that you really want to learn.
Good luck!
-
Thank you marijn, dcstudio and keypeg for your answers. I must say I'm rather surprised :) I agree that the piece is elementary and that the teacher probably needs some time to assess my level, but why do you see this lady's teaching style so negatively? I thought it would be useful for a student to have an indication of the structure of the piece, the theory behind and also, why not, some historical background (if the quote from Mozart can be considered as such :) ). As keypeg said, he's exercising every ounce of his self-control to avoid criticizing in details... May I kindly ask you to refrain from controlling yourself and just let it go? :) I would be quite interested in knowing more in detail what's wrong with that kind of teaching, especially concerning the "strange strategies" that a student might think of applying, I'm not sure that I get what you mean.
The actual important point is that YOUR TEACHER IS TEACHING YOU. There is TEACHING going on.
In fact, that is the only thing you need to know. I spent a fair bit of time and effort in my previous post explaining what I think teaching is about, what the process is. I hope that you have read that carefully, maybe more than once, because that is what my sentence means "Your teacher is teaching you".
I went through the video you posted again. I had to stop around 11 min. - I couldn't take it anymore.
I thought it would be useful for a student to have an indication of the structure of the piece,..
Unfortunately you have to pay $13 (that's the quoted Cdn price anyway) to even see what that is. So I can't tell anything from that part.
some historical background (if the quote from Mozart can be considered as such :)
She says CPE is one of Bach's son's, and he's gotta be good because of what Mozart says. And that he moved music into the Classical era - we keep hearing about "dramatic". This doesn't tell me much, tbh.
Be that as it may - I kept waiting for her to teach how to play the piece. By the 11 minute mark I was still waiting. If this is for learners, where is the development of skills - where is anything?
For analysis, I jotted down that the pink area is "daringness". (???)
Ok, finally at the 3:00 mark we get into the playing of the piece - sort of. She says it's a touchy piece because it's toccato, and then refers to "scratching, kneading, control in the fingertips". Does she teach how to do that? Should she and could she? I'd say no - there are skills that have to be developed. I dread the idea of any self-learner trying to figure what that might mean and maybe messing their hands doing it.
She then says the LH is "easy", by plunking out the chords. That's taken care of, and at 4:30 we're at the RH. She talks of a "harmonic outline" and plays a melodic passage or theme; she illustrates that this passage repeats itself in other keys, and plays it. POINT - Will a relative novice have the ears to hear this? Can a novice mentally or any other way transpose that outline. * I * can hear it. But I have a bit of background in music.
Going on - heading towards 6:30 she plonks back and forth telling us there is a 10th here, a 3rd there, a 6th over here. Have these students learned to recognize intervals? What are they supposed to do with those intervals? It sounds more like a musician talking to herself about what she herself will notice as she goes through this piece.
Some time after 6:30 she identifies a "hard part", and tells us it's a melodic minor scale. Great if you know your melodic minor scales (in which case you'll probably recognize it without being told). She says that here your arm should "pull" and plays it with a "pulling arm". I'll tell you, I'm a student myself, developing my technique with my teacher's help - I could mess myself up trying to follow those instructions.
Anyway - I don't see teaching there - not something that one can work with. I don't see the development of skills. to me it's - I don't know what it is - I could not work with this. I could not find anything to work with or use in the 11 minutes that I watched.
Your teacher probably IS developing your skills - using this piece to do so.
-
Where's Scarbo and the hammerklavier sonata? ;D
-
During these two days from my first lesson I've practiced exactly what my teacher told me to, namely a scale, an arpeggio and the piece, but I hope it's of no surprise that I practice something else as well, since I try to do at least three hours a day on the piano (much more on weekends) which is not a lot, but definitely allows to practice more than only one scale, one arpeggio and one piece.
Given the length of the piece in question, yes, it IS of surprise, and you could have filled 3 hours and more just on that material. But it speaks more to your inexperience, of things you can still learn, which if you do, you will be quite glad of.
I'd like to take your first statement as food for thought:
I've practiced exactly what my teacher told me to, namely a scale, an arpeggio and the piece...
Did your teacher only tell you "what" to practice in the sense of a list, of named things (scale, arpeggio, piece)? Did he give you a "how" to the "what"? Did he give you things to focus on while you practice them? These are very essential, crucial things. Think more - He may not have said specifically, "Practice a scale, and when you do so, I want you to focus on xxx." But he may have pointed out things while you played these things in the lesson. He may have pointed out a weakness - that is a thing for you to focus on. He may have given you a new approach: told you to do a particular thing as you worked together. Pay tight attention to these things, remember them when you get home, write them down. If you do this, and then practise toward them, then the three things you listed will become 30 things.
I, too, practised last night. My main focus was on TWO measures - eight beats, and a bit less, the two that followed it. I lost track of time. There were details to work out, weaknesses to iron out, new things to change. The list you have given could easily take me those three hours, depending on what I end up doing with it.
Is it absolutely forbidden to question a teacher's word, also considering that we pay them to receive a service? I strongly believe it's always better to investigate things in depth instead of just accepting an higher commandment, which does not mean that I won't end up accepting it anyway: just that I will do it with a greater awareness.
Here is how you investigate -- and it is the only way. You must DO. You must do the things your teacher advises you to do, consistently, daily, over weeks. What you have to learn will only reveal itself through that doing. You block the learning otherwise, and find out nothing.
-
Where's Scarbo and the hammerklavier sonata? ;D
huh?
-
Hi 1piano4joe. Hope you're not still sour about that accident with trollbuster. I, for one, enormously appreciate all the feedback that you've given in this thread and I do hope that you'll keep advising me if and when I'll post new stuff on the forum.
Thanks for your post, dcstudio. I, with my almost 31 years of age, I'm not really a new-timer myself, and for sure I see the difference between all the online material I'm able to access now that I'm playing the piano compared to what I had when playing the bass as a teen. There's a downside, I believe, to this abundance of resources: I find it to be a little bit overwhelming. Burgmuller, abrsm, rcm, trinity, various books on graded repertory, millions of different exercises... What to do first? How to handle everything? That's actually one more reason why I need a teacher: to get some guidance across this musical jungle.
Hi reiyza. It depends. I used to divide my sessions in various sections: one for reviewing old repertory, one for new repertory, one for scales, one for exercises, one for reading, etc. Sometimes I would set a timer of 30 or 60 minutes, and practice one section until the timer beeped. After the beep, I would have to pass to the next session. I normally would put reading and repertory at the beginning of my sessions. Now I don't use the timer anymore, but maybe I should. I just play my repertory until I feel that I've done everything I should, and then I go on to the next session. Meaning that sometimes I have very little time left, if at all, for playing scales and exercises. What's your practice routine like?
Thanks keypeg for taking the time to answer me. I do feel that some of your criticism supposes that a student following that video is a total beginner. You may probably not believe it, but I do recognize a change of key or what a 10th interval is, or what the difference between major, minor melodic, minor harmonic and minor natural scale is, so, even if I would probably figure it out myself, I wouldn't mind if my teacher explained all that before starting playing. I totally agree that the explanations about how the piece should be played are not really clear, but that probably goes to show that the online tutorial is no match for a real person being present there with you while you play. Of course I was only comparing the style of teaching, not the worth of an online tutorial compared to an actual teacher.
I cannot hide my surprise for your suggestion that 3 hours should be filled with just one piece, one scale and one arpeggio. How would you suggest going about that? One hour and a half on the piece, 45 minutes on one single scale and 45 minutes on one single arpeggio? Honestly, I'm pretty sure that I would burn out very soon if I applied a similar schedule, and I need to adjust my practice in such a way to make it sustainable for me. In the past three days I've memorized exactly half of the Solfeggietto (as I said I'm not great with sight reading and I prefer memorizing) and I've practiced the one scale and the one arpeggio. PLUS a review of all the burgmuller I've done, other old pieces and some other scales and arpeggios and some sight reading practice. I feel that if I tried to memorize more of the Solfeggietto the whole thing would get messy in my head, so I prefer to take it slow.
But yes, as you said, the teacher said to be particularly careful of the wrist movement and of thumb movement while practicing the scale and arpeggio, so that's what I'm concentrating on when I study that.
PS: it's true that a quote from Mozart is not really that much historical background. If you or anyone else were to advise a good book on the history of classical music, I would really appreciate that.
PPS: I maintain that doing is not the only way to investigate something. In the example of my French teacher, checking beforehand on a forum of french speaking people or even watching a French movie (didn't have the internete back then, sigh) would have avoided me 5 years of wrong teachings.
PPPS: I think shotglass was just being funny ;D
-
Kalospiano, while you may know what an interval etc. is, this "lesson" is being created for students with unknown abilities and knowledge, and I see nothing in there that makes allowances for that. But above all, I see nothing in that entire video that would help me play the piece as a student, or improve my actual playing ability - and to me that last part is what I personally identify as the number one thing one wants to get from a music teacher.
All that aside, the real question was about your present teacher, with whom you have had a single lesson. The on-line teacher was shown as a contrast, against which your teacher might be "not as good", and on that account I believe the opposite is true. The reason I say that is because your teacher was responsive to you as a student by going with your interest (one of the pieces in your list), zeroed in on the one that would help you grow and addressed the needs he saw in your playing.
Btw, I've also been burned as a student. When I switched to piano and had to be on my own, I started looking into what teaching is about, what learning is about, and went about it rather intensely. That is why I have rather definite but broad thoughts about it. There are a few somewhat intense years behind what I write.
I'll write you a PM. :)
-
Re: History of classical music:
I'll tell you what I've been using but also how I have been studying it. The book was recommended by a teacher in another forum.
https://books.wwnorton.com/books/webad.aspx?id=4294977603
The cover looks different so I don't know if it's the same.
When I started to study, I quickly realized how poorly history and geography had been taught. When it starts with Mesopotamia, I had no idea about this geographically or historically. I made full use of the Internet and made my studies as rich as possible. So if an historical instrument was mentioned, I looked it up, listened to it. If a king or a country was mentioned within a time period, ditto. Where there were musical examples, I played them, studied them, found examples on the Internet. I sort of "milked" the book. I got up to "Classical" btw.
There are also "coursera" courses. There was one giving an overview of Western music given by a Yale professor. I'm not sure how I would have felt had I not already done those studies ahead of time. There's another coursera course on Beethoven which goes very much in depth. You could fill up more than 3 hours easily with any of them.
And then you can simply look up CPE Bach, find write-ups, lectures, examples, comparisons. You can probably also go "solfeggieto + analysis".
-
seems like quite a hefty book ;D 1200 pages! Must be extremely detailed, and even covers some jazz, which I like. But maybe I'll begin with something a bit lighter ;D the coursera classes are actually a great idea, I didn't think about that. Maybe I'll give this one a chance:
https://www.coursera.org/learn/introclassicalmusic
And also, yes, I could simply look on google for info about the structure and the characteristics of the pieces I'm study. Sometimes the simplest solution is also the most effective :) Thanks for the tips, and thanks for the pm.
Cheers!
-
seems like quite a hefty book ;D 1200 pages! Must be extremely detailed, and even covers some jazz, which I like. But maybe I'll begin with something a bit lighter ;D the coursera classes are actually a great idea, I didn't think about that. Maybe I'll give this one a chance:
https://www.coursera.org/learn/introclassicalmusic
I took that course. If you think that a condensed version of such a vast topic is "lighter" then I wish you the best of luck. :)
-
Elucidating on this comment - I was in a hurry.
I took that course. If you think that a condensed version of such a vast topic is "lighter" then I wish you the best of luck.
The course mentioned is a condensed version of a semester-long course that is given by the professor at Yale, but reduced to the few weeks for which the Coursera course is formatted. Some Coursera courses have an open timing - you can go as fast or slow as you want, and do the course when you want. Others have deadlines for assignments etc. So the course proposes to teach the ENTIRE history of Western music within a tiny space of time to students who may have no background in music whatsoever. To even begin teaching it, students have to be given a crash course in some basics of music theory - not just memorized things, but a sufficient understanding of concepts - so that they will be able to understand how Western music evolved. Those of us who had that background were fine. We tended to help these others with their questions, and it was a tough haul for them.
There is also a textbook recommended for that course, which is as big as the Grout one that I recommended. It's about as pricey as mine. I did not buy it because I didn't have much money and also I already had my Grout. Reference is made to that text book, and it's recommended for students to read the chapters.
Because everything is condensed into a short period of time, and students may not have a background that would help make things more clear, parts of the course were quite tough going for some. If given a choice between a fat book of a 1,000 pages, and a 6 or so week course on the same material, I would find the fat book --- studied over a few years a bit at a time --- preferable and easier. When I took the Yale coursera course, it became a review, a chance to see other viewpoints and other students' questions, and that vastly enriched the whole thing for me.
-
Thanks Keypeg. At the moment I actually haven't been able to check neither of the two because if I have some spare time I prefer to sit at the piano. Probably the book format would indeed be better as I could read a bit at night in bed before sleeping. I was considering these other two slightly less hefty books as well
https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guide-Classical-Music/dp/0679728058/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459170407&sr=1-5&keywords=history+classical+music
https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Music-Greatest-Composers-Their/dp/0449910423/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459170407&sr=1-1&keywords=history+classical+music
Or also I could check some of the local libraries here in my town. I'll think about it.
-
Kalos, I don't want to be rude, but I have to insist that you edit your original post. It grossly misrepresents the series, which is disrespectful to Clarfield. The series is also edited by Phyllis Lehrer. I assure you she has contributed significantly to the books. The two are very much partners and friends, and Lehrer has had her fair share of competition winners as well.
You are not intended to go straight to book two after only having studied the Arabesque, The Bear, and Chinese Figurine. The Bear and Chinese Figurine are two of the easiest pieces in book one. Besides, the book has much more to offer. The Wild Rider, the Eccosaises, and some beautiful easier Baroque works. In addition, each book is organized by musical period, not by difficulty. Alfred Pub Co has a lot to do with the order in which the pieces are presented within each period as well. A teacher is intended to guide you through each book. I cannot fathom where you got your order of pieces, but it does not reflect the intended order of study except in the very basic fashion that the pieces are grouped in order of which book they appear.
Also, you should know about the intention of the series. Lehrer and Clarfield teach a graduate course called Intermediate Teaching Repertoire, which is structured around a Top 40 pieces you should know how to teach. They've also presented this list in lectures, and received many requests to publish such a collection. They decided to do their Top 100. These 100 are loosely grouped into five levels of difficulty. However, they also understand that difficulty and progression are deeply personal. I assure you they do not sit there with their own students going through piece by piece. So you need to understand that *you* put the Maple Leaf Rag after Fantasie-Impromptu, not Clarfield and Lehrer. And yes, FI is more difficult, but in a sense it is comparing apples and oranges. Nobody would confuse the technical challenges of FI and MLR as being similar. A student might be a whiz at fast passage work, but sloppy and inaccurate at stride bass with no feel for syncopation (though one would hope they studied Golliwog's Cakewalk earlier). In this case, Maple Leaf Rag would be harder.
Finally, Clarfield and Lehrer are currently at work on a series of study guides to accompany Classics for the Developing Pianists. Books 1 and 2 are finished and printed (book 2 done last week!) and after they finish their presentations at the upcoming MTNA conference, book 3 will be in the works. I apologize if I was rude, but these ladies have done, and continue to do, way too much for me to let your post stand without a defense.
-
Hi jgallag.
You definitely didn't sound rude to me :) but I did say multiple times that the list is not the only thing I'm following, so you need take into account the tree collections of etudes by Burgmuller that I intend to complete and the ABRSM syllabus pieces.
I've tried to write down another list, which is still by no means complete or correct in the order and needs a lot of adjustment, but at the moment it goes like this:
***Clementi Arietta: Lesson 5 from Op. 42
***Neefe Allegretto in C
***Bartók Children at Play: No. 1 from For Children
***Gurlitt Das Schaukelpferd (The Rocking Horse)
Ponchielli Dance of the Hours (from La Gioconda), arr. Bullard.
***Kaneda Gachou no Koushin (March of the Geese)
L. Mozart Allegro in D
Vitalij Neugasimov Lullaby
The Bear (Rebikov)
Chinese Figurine (Rebikov)
First Gymnopedie (Satie)
***Solfeggietto (C.P.E. Bach)
Prelude in C Major, BWV 846 (J. S. Bach)
Carroll A Stormy Coast: No. 7 from In Southern Seas
Franklyn Gellnick Moody Prawn Blues
Sonata in C Major, K. 545 (III) (W. A. Mozart)
Sonatina in C Major, Op. 36, No. 1 (Clementi)
About Foreign Lands and People, Op. 15, No. 1 (Schumann)
***Fur Elise, WoO 59 (Beethoven)
J. S. Bach Invention No. 1
J. S. Bach Invention No. 6
D. C. Glover Indian Pony Race
Chopin - Waltz in A Minor
Invention No. 8 in F Major, BWV 779 (J. S. Bach)
Invention No. 13 in A Minor, BWV 784 (J. S. Bach)
Evelien Vis 60s Swing: No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Le petit negre (Debussy)
Sonata in C Major, K. 545 (I) (W. A. Mozart)
Cramer - Etude Op 60 n 12
Scott Joplin - The Entertainer
J. S. Bach Sinfonia No. 11 in G minor, BWV 797
Mingxin Du and Zuqiang Wu Shui Cao Wu (The Dance of Watergrass): 3rd movt from The Mermaid Suite
Arabesque No. 1 (Debussy)
Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum (Debussy)
Golliwog's Cakewalk (Debussy)
Sonata in C-sharp Minor ("Moonlight"), Op. 27, No. 2 (I) (Beethoven)
Czerny - School Of Velocity Etude n 9
Nocturne in E-flat Major, Op. 9, No. 2 (Chopin)
***Sonata in A Major, K. 331 (III: "Rondo alla Turca") (W. A. Mozart)
Clair de lune (Debussy)
J. S. Bach Prelude and Fugue in C minor, BWV 847
Chabrier Habanera
Chopin: Prelude, Op.28 No.22
Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66 (Chopin)
Bach: Fugue in D major from 'Well-Tempered Clavichord'
Sonata in C Minor ("Pathetique"), Op. 13 (Beethoven) (II)
I repeat: the list is just a work in progress.
Also, as you can see I'm not really following the order. After finishing the Solfeggietto, my teacher gave me the Sonatina in C by Clementi as an assignment for the next time. This is at this point more a collection of pieces that I would like to play rather than a progressive order list, and there are many many pieces missing.
The Burgmuller etudes are not included but I still play them (op 100 number 9 is my next objective).