Piano Forum
Non Piano Board => Anything but piano => Topic started by: rimv2 on May 15, 2006, 06:12:39 AM
-
I am an American!!!
(https://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9021/teamamerica5vv.jpg)
Discuss. Vent. Lemme have it. I can rebutle anything youz all throw at me
-
why do the guys look like they are wearing makeup?
i'm not anti-american - but i don't think these guys can fight if they are putting on makeup. (eyeliner, too?) it turns me off even when i see a 'fashion designer' wearing eyeliner. but, guess that on tv people ahve to have blemishes covered or whatever. but, int he army? who has time to look taht good? besides, i find guys that are 'ala natural' looking more manly - and even if they don't fight - at least they look like they could.
-
Ummm.....pianistimo, they're puppets....
As for you Rim....BOO HISS BOO! You have a government that lies, and a President that is overly fond of cheese burgers!
Rebute that ;)
Henrah
-
btw, i think war has become less 'army' and more bombing potential. armies are sort irrelevant, if you think about it. we have to really be on the lookout for dirty bombs. the funny thing is, is that when you see a large cargo come in and barely be checked, or a truck drive by with no license plate - what are you going to do? follow it? what if it was the worst? do you act like you're the FBI and get involved in a serious case or is there some telephone number we're supposed to call. national security reminds me of wearing an orange jacket and waving traffic here and there.
to me, the idea of prayer is of utmost importance. we are told to pray for our leaders and i pray this problem with iran will somehow go away. unfortunately, the way things look - we stepped into a snake pit. it's that we have done some stupid things. usually not as stupid as other countries in terms of genocides and stuff - but, we have to learn (just as every other country) where our blessings actually came from and look to God again. otherwise, they will simply vanish as they already are day to day.
i take comfort that 'if the worst happens' it will all lead to the best. Christ's return. maybe He's showing us that we are all at fault and we all need a better way.
-
but, we have to learn (just as every other country) where our blessings actually came from and look to God again. otherwise, they will simply vanish as they already are day to day.
i take comfort that 'if the worst happens' it will all lead to the best. Christ's return. maybe He's showing us that we are all at fault and we all need a better way.
I challenge you to post without mentioning God or Jesus.
-
Ummm.....pianistimo, they're puppets....
As for you Rim....BOO HISS BOO! You have a government that lies, and a President that is overly fond of cheese burgers!
Rebute that ;)
Henrah
Thats's the spirit.
MORE!!!!
MORE!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Well, I'm Irish, you Americans are great. We go over to USA and get welcomed like we're heroes, you come over here and we rip you off! (whoever thought guinness would be so profitable for such a terrible drink? ::))
(well, I'm Northern Irish, and a British-siding one at that, but still... 8))
-
over half your population is overweight and a great deal are morbidly obese, yet across an ocean, millions are starving to death everyday.
-
over half your population is overweight and a great deal are morbidly obese, yet across an ocean, millions are starving to death everyday.
and all you think about is making war with them :P
-
would i rather make war or love with mizz xtina, HARD choice
-
would i rather make war or love with mizz xtina, HARD choice
good point, it is indeed a HARD choice (I hope you weren't inferring some sort of pun there...)
-
over half your population is overweight and a great deal are morbidly obese, yet across an ocean, millions are starving to death everyday.
Why do you hate fat people? Being thin doesn't make you better than anyone elso, so shut it.
-
Why do you hate fat people? Being thin doesn't make you better than anyone elso, so shut it.
yeah but being fat shortens your life in many ways.
-
I think those puppets look creepy and I don't like the idea of a whole movie with cheap puppets as the characters. I think I remember seeing previews from that movie. I don't plan on wasting time on it.
Team America sounds kind of dorky.
The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting. I think the US is stabilizing a lot of the world. Generally doing good. I don't think the US always has business everywhere, but I think it can easily get dragged into things.
South Park creators... might be ok.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
-
I think those puppets look creepy and I don't like the idea of a whole movie with cheap puppets as the characters. I think I remember seeing previews from that movie. I don't plan on wasting time on it.
Team America sounds kind of dorky.
The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting. I think the US is stabilizing a lot of the world. Generally doing good. I don't think the US always has business everywhere, but I think it can easily get dragged into things.
South Park creators... might be ok.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
The movie is absolutely genius. and imo a must see.
-
I think those puppets look creepy and I don't like the idea of a whole movie with cheap puppets as the characters. I think I remember seeing previews from that movie. I don't plan on wasting time on it.
Team America sounds kind of dorky.
The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting. I think the US is stabilizing a lot of the world. Generally doing good. I don't think the US always has business everywhere, but I think it can easily get dragged into things.
South Park creators... might be ok.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
When you dis the puppets, you've gone too far... >:(
Watch it before you judge it jerk!!!
over half your population is overweight and a great deal are morbidly obese, yet across an ocean, millions are starving to death everyday.
And the world is quickly following. AHAHHAHAHAHA ;D
https://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/facts/UK/index55.aspx?ComponentId=12741&SourcePageId=14975
https://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/03/news/obese.php
https://www.oxha.org/initiatives/capcod/2005-workshop-newsletter
Ah particularly like this one
https://www.cycle-helmets.com/helmet-health.html
Even the third world
https://foodisworse.typepad.com/blog/2005/06/index.html
You have a government that lies, and a President that is overly fond of cheese burgers!
Rebute that ;)
Henrah
Sorry, our goverment doesnt lie. It merely tells the truth as it sees it at the moment. If now the truth is something different now from what is was then, it cant be held responsible ;D. As for cheese burgers, the president doesnt like the burgers themselves, just the companies that make them 8)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH
GIMME MORE!!!!!
-
[quote author=Bob link=topic=17995.The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
They don't hype it up, they rip the piss out of it and the Americans, even though they are American!
And I'm dumbfounded that your intelligence hasn't noticed that the 'F back in Freedom' was showing the entire premise of the film: that American's are stupid at war. But then again, you haven't seen it, so I apologise.....and also DEMAND THAT YOU SEE IT!!!
Rim, your President is silly. He had to pre-rehearse a speech that was supposed to be live and uncripted to militants in Iraq. And he's stupid.
And he's dumb.
And retarded.
I could go on. Shall I?
-
Our President is an idiot.
But if he were assasinated, Cheney would take his place :o
-
[quote author=Bob link=topic=17995.The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
They don't hype it up, they rip the piss out of it and the Americans, even though they are American!
And I'm dumbfounded that your intelligence hasn't noticed that the 'F back in Freedom' was showing the entire premise of the film: that American's are stupid at war. But then again, you haven't seen it, so I apologise.....and also DEMAND THAT YOU SEE IT!!!
Rim, your President is silly. He had to pre-rehearse a speech that was supposed to be live and uncripted to militants in Iraq. And he's stupid.
And he's dumb.
And retarded.
I could go on. Shall I?
You do realize that the film spoofs liberals, not conservatives. Seeing as how Hollywood actors join up with Kim Jong Il...
(this should be more than apparent to anyone who's seen South Park)
-
yeah but being fat shortens your life in many ways.
Being mildy overweight is actually beneficial. Skinny suckas like me are screwed. :P
-
Why do you hate fat people? Being thin doesn't make you better than anyone elso, so shut it.
I don't hate fat people, I hate consummerism which goes hand in hand with obesity, and I correct my percentage, I read in TIME that it's actually 2/3 are overwieght of obese.
The problem with obesity is that
A) it kills them and
B)They don't need to eat that much and
C)what about the rest of the world, something stupid like 90% of our ressources are being used bu north America (I'm lumped in there too) andwe certainly don't contain the bulk of it although Japan, China and Inida are likely close behind.
I'm ignoring you steve.
-
Why do you hate fat people? Being thin doesn't make you better than anyone elso, so shut it.
They tend to take in more space than they are worth.
-
I'm ignoring you steve.
im ignoring you too, mildly ;D
-
I don't hate fat people, I hate consummerism which goes hand in hand with obesity, and I correct my percentage, I read in TIME that it's actually 2/3 are overwieght of obese.
The problem with obesity is that
A) it kills them and
B)They don't need to eat that much and
C)what about the rest of the world, something stupid like 90% of our ressources are being used bu north America (I'm lumped in there too) andwe certainly don't contain the bulk of it although Japan, China and Inida are likely close behind.
I'm ignoring you steve.
90% wow Common sense should've told you that was false. The USA's GDP is ~10 trillion. Europe's alone is above that. Of course this whole thing is stupid. Wealth is created not stolen.
-
Resources are stolen.
-
Sorry, our goverment doesnt lie.
lmao that is ridiculous. (statement targeted at both US and British government).
-
I don't hate fat people, I hate consummerism which goes hand in hand with obesity, and I correct my percentage, I read in TIME that it's actually 2/3 are overwieght of obese.
The problem with obesity is that
A) it kills them and
B)They don't need to eat that much and
C)what about the rest of the world, something stupid like 90% of our ressources are being used bu north America (I'm lumped in there too) andwe certainly don't contain the bulk of it although Japan, China and Inida are likely close behind.
I'm ignoring you steve.
The world is fat. There are fat people in africa and asia. Get over it ;D
[quote author=Bob link=topic=17995.The idea of hyping up America policing the world is interesting.
Put the F back in freedom? Huh? Where was the F before? Was it Reedom? Where did the F go? That keeps the S alive in Stupid.
Rim, your President is silly. He had to pre-rehearse a speech that was supposed to be live and uncripted to militants in Iraq. And he's stupid.
And he's dumb.
And retarded.
I could go on. Shall I?
Considering the majority of his speech are unscripted, It's not surprising he would take a break. Ah mean you can only use "the strongest military in the world" so many times before people become de-sensitized. And to call him both retarded and silly- shame on you. Making fun of the mentally handicapped. But why's a retard your president?
Cause in a America, we dont fu---ing descriminated 8)
And intelligence is relative anyway. To many people Einstein was a genius. To meh, he's just a regular old guy ;D
90% wow Common sense should've told you that was false. The USA's GDP is ~10 trillion. Europe's alone is above that. Of course this whole thing is stupid. Wealth is created not stolen.
Comparing a coutry against a continent - bravo.
*shakes hand*
Resources are stolen.
Yes it's interesting you should mention that
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4307813.stm
-
lol, I was trying to give you more things to rebute ;D
He's not as dumb or retarded as the media makes him out to be, or else he wouldn't have ever made it as far as an election campaign.
Unless it's the American dream that allows a burger loving stupid texan to become the most made-fun-of President ever :D Again, just to rebute please.
If anything, I applaud George Double-yah for keeping his tether, and not going nukie-wukie on anyone that rips the piss out of him. In fact, I'd shake his hand for openly and publicly allowing a looky-likey to say a proper presidential speech whilst G.W.B takes the piss out of himself. But I'd probably get shot before I even get on the grass...
Henrah
P.S. I hope he gets another term, we need this kind of humour. I just hope that if he does, someone takes over his decisions and he just becomes a target of humiliation... though that might lead to depression, and I don't want to see a huge fat George Double-yah comfort eating on cheese burgers for the rest of his life.
-
90% wow Common sense should've told you that was false. The USA's GDP is ~10 trillion. Europe's alone is above that. Of course this whole thing is stupid. Wealth is created not stolen.
i was just leaving the house, I didn't have time to look over my message, my appologies I also stated that it was something LIKE 92%
I have to go, I will continue this discussion with the proper number when I find it :)
-
I found this:
https://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?id=56340&n=dh330&c=tzlvsrxywshqwyj
What he found was that not only is edible food discarded that could feed people who need it, but the rate of loss, even partially corrected, could save US consumers and manufacturers tens of billions of dollars each year. Jones says these losses also can be framed in terms of environmental degradation and national security.
Jones' research evolved from and builds on earlier work done at the University of Arizona. Archaeologists there began measuring garbage in the 1970s to see what was being thrown away and discovered that people were not fully aware of what they were using and discarding.
Those earlier studies evolved into more sophisticated research using contemporary archaeology and ethnography to understand not only the path food travels from farms and orchards to landfills, but also the culture and psychology behind the process.
The fact that the US is a wasteful nation is not necessarily news, of course. The country has long has been chastised for its wilful consumption of the world's resources, and many aspects of the country's culture encapsulate what environmentalists disparagingly refer to as today's "throw-away society."
Americans used produce between 3.3 to 4 pounds of garbage a day (babies probably produce more ;) )
Brazil
in 2000
Waste streams
Tonnes
Household waste
38,486,323 tonnes
Public waste
11,226,931 tonnes
Healthcare waste
1,180,800 tonnes
Finland:
Total waste generation in year 2000:
‘000 tonnes Year
2000
Household waste
Domestic waste
Bulky waste
Garden waste
Other
2 760
Institutions/trade and offices
Manufacturing industry etc.
14 500
Building and construction
1 400
Wastewater treatment plants
160
Slag, fly ash etc. (coal)
770
Others, hazardous waste
1203
Total
20 633
It is commonly quoted that 400-435 million tonnes of wastes are generated in the UK each year
I am unable to find stats for US or Canada.
This info is from: https://www.iswa.org/uploadfiles/Final_Waste_Info_1_oktober.htm
But this is going way off on a tangent. Team America was amusing, satirized many flaws in the American Ideology and had the best speech ever:
We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks.
And the Film Actors Guild are pussies.
Kim Jong Il is an ***.
Pussies don't like dicks because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also *** assholes. Assholes that just want to *** on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can *** a *** is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is they *** too much or *** when it isn't appropriate. And it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes pussies can be so full of *** that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are a inch and half away from assholes. I don't know much about this crazy crazy world, but I do know this. If you don't let us *** this *** we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in ***.
It's amusing, it's offensive, it's an escape from reality with a bunch of dumbness, meh.
The End.
-
That movie was the dumbest movie I've ever seen in a theater. I actually got my money back. It's for 14 year old boys who will probably eventually drop out of high school. They think a 20 second vomit scene, cursing ever 4 seconds, a 2 minute puppet sex scene and mocking the most stupidly obvious/basic political controversies at the most stupidly obvious/basic levels is "witty" and "satirical".
Anyone who thinks this movie is intelligent in any way, shape or form probably has an IQ of about 60, or is no older than 12.
-
Has he eaten a lot of cheeseburgers? I didn't know about that. He's in good shape and a runner. I don't like him though. He's made the government bigger.
lol, I was trying to give you more things to rebute ;D
He's not as dumb or retarded as the media makes him out to be, or else he wouldn't have ever made it as far as an election campaign.
Unless it's the American dream that allows a burger loving stupid texan to become the most made-fun-of President ever :D Again, just to rebute please.
If anything, I applaud George Double-yah for keeping his tether, and not going nukie-wukie on anyone that rips the piss out of him. In fact, I'd shake his hand for openly and publicly allowing a looky-likey to say a proper presidential speech whilst G.W.B takes the piss out of himself. But I'd probably get shot before I even get on the grass...
Henrah
P.S. I hope he gets another term, we need this kind of humour. I just hope that if he does, someone takes over his decisions and he just becomes a target of humiliation... though that might lead to depression, and I don't want to see a huge fat George Double-yah comfort eating on cheese burgers for the rest of his life.
-
Always, you should read this. It's by Tim Hartford an economist.
Dear Economist,
Around South America hundreds of children have held their hands out to me and I’ve ignored many and felt terrible. But my £1 can be worth six of their currency - will I still go to heaven?
Yours sincerely
Natalie Chalk, by e-mail
Dear Natalie,
You would be astonished how difficult it is to give money away properly. Because there are few good jobs in poor countries, the understandable generosity of relatively wealthy visitors risks turning begging into a comparatively attractive profession - which is a self-defeating process.
Imagine that a poor farmer can make £1 a day, and a beggar can make £5 a day. Who would be a farmer? Farmers will leave the fields to beg until five times as many beggars are chasing the same tourists, returns collapse to a £1 a day, and the rest of the farmers continue farming. Similar reasoning applies to where families send their children: to the fields, to school or to the streets? For the same reason, guides and taxi drivers will wait hours or days for the single lucrative tourist. This doesn’t do anyone any good.
It’s true that begging often carries a stigma. Perhaps farmers would rather farm for £1 than beg for £2. Unfortunately, this is no better: your money is still doing nothing more than compensating beggars for the stigma of begging.
This process of “rent-dissipation” is not limited to beggars. For instance, the net benefit of being crushed but getting cheap goodies in the New Year sales should be roughly zero - otherwise more people would be there in the scrum...
-
Haha, yes we should all eat more cheese burgers...
-
Anyone who thinks this movie is intelligent in any way, shape or form probably has an IQ of about 60, or is no older than 12.
I'm 17, and supposedly have an IQ of 140 - though I think it's actually 130 odd - and I love that movie! I think it is highly intelligent, though probably creating it's own cliche at the same time by conforming to the stupidity of American movies to make it easier on American viewers. That d*ck, pussies and a**holes speech is class, and will go down in history! It has such a deep connotation, and yet is also funny because it is telling the truth about our own genitals. A**holes really do cover everything in sh*t :P
Anyway, my point is: Matt and Trey are both very smart, and know the true act behind government, and like to express it in many hilarious ways. They thought of an ingenious way of expressing their feelings towards many actors and actresses of today, inventing the idea of a Film Actors Guild. Now that's smart!
And Soliloquy, you have a very normal sense of humour (or lack of maybe) if you don't find the continuous vomiting funny. It's the over exaggeration that makes me laugh so hard, and that's what's so great about having a British sense of humour ;D
-
lol, I was trying to give you more things to rebute ;D
He's not as dumb or retarded as the media makes him out to be, or else he wouldn't have ever made it as far as an election campaign.
Unless it's the American dream that allows a burger loving stupid texan to become the most made-fun-of President ever :D Again, just to rebute please.
Anything's possible in this country.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/ug18.html
https://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/mb8.html
If anything, I applaud George Double-yah for keeping his tether, and not going nukie-wukie on anyone that rips the piss out of him. In fact, I'd shake his hand for openly and publicly allowing a looky-likey to say a proper presidential speech whilst G.W.B takes the piss out of himself. But I'd probably get shot before I even get on the grass...
Henrah
He laughs as a defense mechanism.
P.S. I hope he gets another term, we need this kind of humour. I just hope that if he does, someone takes over his decisions and he just becomes a target of humiliation... though that might lead to depression, and I don't want to see a huge fat George Double-yah comfort eating on cheese burgers for the rest of his life.
Some one already make his decisions for him ;)
That movie was the dumbest movie I've ever seen in a theater. I actually got my money back. It's for 14 year old boys who will probably eventually drop out of high school. They think a 20 second vomit scene, cursing ever 4 seconds, a 2 minute puppet sex scene and mocking the most stupidly obvious/basic political controversies at the most stupidly obvious/basic levels is "witty" and "satirical".
Anyone who thinks this movie is intelligent in any way, shape or form probably has an IQ of about 60, or is no older than 12.
160 Beotch ;D
Has he eaten a lot of cheeseburgers?
Our administration is not currently allowed to divulge this information ;)
I'm 17, and supposedly have an IQ of 140 - though I think it's actually 130 odd - and I love that movie! I think it is highly intelligent, though probably creating it's own cliche at the same time by conforming to the stupidity of American movies to make it easier on American viewers. That d*ck, pussies and a**holes speech is class, and will go down in history! It has such a deep connotation, and yet is also funny because it is telling the truth about our own genitals. A**holes really do cover everything in sh*t :P
Anyway, my point is: Matt and Trey are both very smart, and know the true act behind government, and like to express it in many hilarious ways. They thought of an ingenious way of expressing their feelings towards many actors and actresses of today, inventing the idea of a Film Actors Guild. Now that's smart!
And Soliloquy, you have a very normal sense of humour (or lack of maybe) if you don't find the continuous vomiting funny. It's the over exaggeration that makes me laugh so hard, and that's what's so great about having a British sense of humour ;D
Finally a foreigner says something Ah can agree with 8)
-
It's by Tim Hartford an economist.
Dear Tim,
Imagine that a poor farmer can make £1 a day and his child £5 a day from begging.
The farmer uses this extra cash to educate the child who goes to university and creates mega-corp with a turnover of $4.2Billion, and to buy a big piece of land and a tractor so he then makes £50 a day employing £1 farmers and £3M a year selling the yield to his son's business. The people who will be £1 a day farmers are those who read your letter in the economist.
p.s did you get £1 a day for writing it? Buy a pig with it and start farming otherwise everyone will be doing it.
-
Dear Tim,
Imagine that a poor farmer can make £1 a day and his child £5 a day from begging.
The farmer uses this extra cash to educate the child who goes to university and creates mega-corp with a turnover of $4.2Billion, and to buy a big piece of land and a tractor so he then makes £50 a day employing £1 farmers and £3M a year selling the yield to his son's business. The people who will be £1 a day farmers are those who read your letter in the economist.
p.s did you get £1 a day for writing it? Buy a pig with it and start farming otherwise everyone will be doing it.
So you think that corporations, one of the foundations of capitalism, cheat all their workers. If that were true, independent farmers would earn $2 and corporate farmers $1. Of course your bit about a tractor is much more close to what a corporation would do. Supply capital and an infrastructure. Obviously, the people who do those things also need to get payed.
-
Why would corporations pay more money to independent farmers than they pay to their contracted farmers?
Do corporations even buy from independent farmers?
-
Why would corporations pay more money to independent farmers than they pay to their contracted farmers?
Do corporations even buy from independent farmers?
A corporate farm wouldn't be buying crops from the independent farmer. The independent would sell his crops at market prices elsewhere.
-
Sure, so your argument makes not sense. Who 'controls' the market price?
-
Sure, so your argument makes not sense. Who 'controls' the market price?
...
The market...
(remember those supply and demand charts from econ 101)
-
Yes, and the market is dominated by corporations. So the corporations influence the prices.
I mean, those people deserve to get more money for their products. But they do not get any more because of the way the market works.
And let's not forget the state support for western farmers. Those influence the market as well.
A friend of me works for Cargill and she wants to quit her job because Cargill is so bad it makes her feel guilty. And this when she isn't even in the section of the company that has anything to do with the stealing of resources.
-
Yes, and the market is dominated by corporations. So the corporations influence the prices.
I mean, those people deserve to get more money for their products. But they do not get any more because of the way the market works.
The only way that corporations decide the price is through a monopoly or price fixing, both of which are illegal.
BTW a good example of how a market works are MMORPGS. Play FFXI for a few weeks and you'll see how prices work.
-
And let's not forget the state support for western farmers. Those influence the market as well.
A friend of me works for Cargill and she wants to quit her job because Cargill is so bad it makes her feel guilty. And this when she isn't even in the section of the company that has anything to do with the stealing of resources.
I find Western Subsidies completely indefensible.
-
I played Ultima Online, a game which has many people to focus entirely on craft and trade, and the markets are all flawed and screwed up. I though you were an economist, though I do not know why. Surely all of them are flawed. I do not know the details of FFXI but I can't imagine how this program can be both a game and a realistic market model.
I never said corporations decide on a price. I only said that the market works in such a way it is possible to limit the amount of money payed to third world farmers. Why don't they get payed more?
I expected that you would find the indefensible. But as long as they exist we cannot talk about capitalism and markets won't work properly in the capitalist way.
It is like defending communism while ignoring the atrocities it seemed to inflict because these are not a part of the strict communist ideology. Communism proposes a strong state. The stronger a state the more the violence. Same with capitalism. If you defend capitalism you also need to consider the unwanted side effects.
-
I played Ultima Online, a game which has many people to focus entirely on craft and trade, and the markets are all flawed and screwed up. I though you were an economist, though I do not know why. Surely all of them are flawed. I do not know the details of FFXI but I can't imagine how this program can be both a game and a realistic market model.
I never said corporations decide on a price. I only said that the market works in such a way it is possible to limit the amount of money payed to third world farmers. Why don't they get payed more?
How are they screwed up? The markets in FFXI work very well. The largest commodity were Moat Carp, a fish used in a quest to get a rare fishing rod. The price normally was in the 400gil range. When there was a glut of Carp in the auction house, the price would drop to 350. When there was a shortage, you might have to pay 500-600gil for a stack. It's all about supply and demand.
-
In the game I played gold is the currency. Gold is added by killing monsters. Monsters spawn out of nothing every once in a while.
This means that over time the economy will inflate itself out of existance. And this is what happened. Gold now is worth 40 times less when compared with the game economy a year after the game started. At least this is what people that still play have told me.
-
I played Ultima Online, a game which has many people to focus entirely on craft and trade, and the markets are all flawed and screwed up. I though you were an economist, though I do not know why. Surely all of them are flawed. I do not know the details of FFXI but I can't imagine how this program can be both a game and a realistic market model.
I never said corporations decide on a price. I only said that the market works in such a way it is possible to limit the amount of money payed to third world farmers. Why don't they get payed more?
I expected that you would find the indefensible. But as long as they exist we cannot talk about capitalism and markets won't work properly in the capitalist way.
It is like defending communism while ignoring the atrocities it seemed to inflict because these are not a part of the strict communist ideology. Communism proposes a strong state. The stronger a state the more the violence. Same with capitalism. If you defend capitalism you also need to consider the unwanted side effects.
Third world farmers get payed so little because they produce so little. (and because of Western agricultural subsidies) Many don't produce much more than necessary to feed themselves. They lack the infrastructure and rule of law that we have. A third world farmer doesn't have tractors or fertilizers among many other things. They also have corrupt governments that prevent growth from occuring. How exactly would a corporation prevent a third world farmer from being paid? There must be some mechanism through which they coerce them.
There are of corse areas where the market doesn't work. Items like Roads, police, national defense or the environment. Capitalism has its flaws, but we don't live in a utopia. No system solves every problem. Not every problem is solvable. Most of the solutions that you'd propose would leave us in a worse state than we started in.
-
In the game I played gold is the currency. Gold is added by killing monsters. Monsters spawn out of nothing every once in a while.
This means that over time the economy will inflate itself out of existance. And this is what happened. Gold now is worth 40 times less when compared with the game economy a year after the game started. At least this is what people that still play have told me.
Same thing happens in real life. Post WWI Germany would be the best example. It in no way contradicts capitalism. In fact it confirms it. As the supply of gold increases, its value drops.
-
It proves that the mechanics don't serve man but that they enslave man.
-
It proves that the mechanics don't serve man but that they enslave man.
????
-
Uhhh yeah.... ???
-
So you think that corporations, one of the foundations of capitalism, cheat all their workers.
No. How did you reach that conclusion?
The economy isn't full of people who are being cheated, it's largely full of people who have no idea how to utilise the money they have. That someone is writing a letter asking whether to spend it shows that. The less they have, the better and their role is to get rid of what they have. If they find beggars to help them do that, why not?
Indeed, the chances are high she is in debt, fulfilling her role of having as little as possible for years into the future - thus making her less rich than the beggar who only has nothing, or maybe even a fiver. Perhaps the stigma he talks about by being a beggar is the same as that in being rich, you've got more than everyone else? :)
I think my point was more that how an individual gets the resources / money he/she gets and how an individual utilises them and adapts to whatever changes occur, is more key to the success and future of that individual than some economist's statistical / high level overview about how an economy will work and what good / bad things would happen if you give a beggar money or not. [or do anything with your money or life based upon his hand-waving overview] It's like the "can I make money playing the piano?" questions in the forum. Of course you can't, unless you're one of the people that do.
Or, in other words, just because everyone can't make money begging [or doing anything else] doesn't mean someone can't and just because a lot of people will get a £1 from farming or £1+ from begging, but not both and would stop at that stage forever. There are a few who will do both jobs with an eye on using the extra money to let them do something else, rather than buy a bigger TV or feed another 5 beggars on their next holiday.
In most cases for the role of beggar, we aren't going to worry too much about the fact Tim tells us we can't be one. However, he'll tell you the same thing about running Tescos if you ask him whether you should do that. "If everyone ran Tescos, who would farm?"
Clearly people giving money away are unlikely to do anything of value with it. The fact someone who begs might do was the point of my story. The anti-thesis to his point which is that they might not - albeit he couched it in terms that they would not, and claimed not only that, but they should be doing something else. No one can predict the future, but we've got to get the money from her to someone else somehow.
Albeit, the corporations, with a proven track record, might be a better bet, so if you're unsure about your beggar's future with your money, tell her to buy some shiny things from some other guy that isn't farming either.
Whether I give my money away to beggars, buy a lottery ticket or a buy a piano the money will have gone from me and for those particular cases, although there are small possibilities that I might make more money from them, chances are I won't. It's called disposable income for a reason.
At some point in the future, there may not be an industry in piano building, begging from richer tourists, selling lottery tickets or anything else. Perhaps I shouldn't buy a piano or a lottery ticket, or anything else, in order to avert the situation where piano builders et al get fooled into thinking they can make more money at it with less effort than farming for £1 a week.
Worse, if farmers were to leave the fields and make pianos or sell lottery tickets, we can all see the harm. There'd be more pianos and lottery tickets and no cabbage. Tim is effectively telling her to stop spending money on anything unless it involves farming or unless everyone can do it.
Clearly the future changes and those changes might influence whether what we do works and gets us the money we want in the short, medium or long term. Begging might not be a long term strategy, but neither was working in British industry for a lot of people.
-
Leachim, I don't think that Tim wanted his analysis taken outside of begging. Begging is not like just another job. It's bad. It produces abosolutely nothing of value for society. All it consists of are costs(aesthetics, public health.) If you subsidize these things, you make them more attractive. In the US, you could never pull off a good living from 5's and 10's from passergoes, but the US is so much better off, that begging First World tourists in Thrid World countries can be a sustainable job. This is the problem. A beggar does nothing to advance these countries as they go through the processes that Western Europe and the US went through hundreds of years ago(and that many Asian countries have gone through recently). By giving them money, you may help them off in the short term, but you hurt them in the long.
-
Leachim, I don't think that Tim wanted his analysis taken outside of begging. Begging is not like just another job. It's bad. It produces abosolutely nothing of value for society.
Well, what Tim wants is neither here nor there. There's lots of jobs that you could argue don't do that either, certainly from different points of view. OTOH, crime is of a huge benefit to some, there are businesses that exist purely because it does, yet I don't think that makes it good per se. If the guy was to hit you over the head and take everything, then you'd have a heap of people benefitting from his endeavours - some of which you'd pay for, whereas if he sits there and you give him the money it's of no value to anyone, except perhaps him mebbe? If the fiver is of use and value when you spend it, it must be the same....irrespective of whether you think you benefitted society when you got the fiver.
Giving money to charity isn't much different. It doesn't have to be an eyesore either, some of those people at the Vatican have fancy gear and they do an act. What about busking? That's not a million miles away from what a concert pianist does to eat. Neither is giving your nephews £5 in their birthday card if giving money away is bad.
It's like I said it's all fakery. In the US I could get lots of debt and then a big TV which would make me wealthy in your eyes. But I see a fair amount of the jobs in some industries in the USA being outsourced to India. So now that guy's left with the debt, he wasn't ever wealthy but he doesn't have any economists to proudly guff over his £1 a week farming martydom nor it seems anyone willing to chuck him a fiver :)
I guess I take the medical view, where they don't morally judge the person's worth when they're healing them [well, at least not all the time - there are a few], it's what they do with the opportunity they get that matters. If that's more begging, then as I said, that's not much different from what everyone else does with the resources they get.
As for advancing third world economies, I don't think we want another few billion people who all want to power big TVs and cars, do we? Fair trade? Ha. Who is going to make my telly nice and cheaply if they're all advanced? How am I going to keep kidding myself that I can carry on and pay for this debt if they all get advanced? No, it's bad enough that poor people can write computer software and make telephone calls asking if I want double glazing. If begging will keep them where they are and ensure I'll have a big TV, here give them this £5 :D
-
Crime does not benefit society. A criminal takes what someone else has made and uses it for himself. He creates no new wealth. He benefits himself and other criminals who he deals with, but society as a whole is worse off for his actions.
I think you still don't quite understand what Tim was getting at. It isn't that the beggar isn't better off because of the charity. It's that when you throw large amounts of money(by third world standards) at beggars, you end up with lots of beggars. Beggars are bad for society. It's a degrading almost inhumane activity.
And I don't see how going into debt is relevant to whether giving beggars money is a good idea. And I further fail to see what outsourcing(a scary word for free trade) has to do with any of this.
-
Crime does not benefit society. A criminal takes what someone else has made and uses it for himself. He creates no new wealth.
Well yes that describes some crime. But say you're employed in a company that makes cars and they sell twice as many because lots of them get stolen and crashed etc, and thus you have a job to pay off your debts...or your "wealth" if you like, then ultimately you benefit from car theft.
Whether in the statistical hand-waving high overview it benefits is neither here nor there - that was my point with my letter. Just because something comes along that will kill 80% of the population then I'm going to worry about where I'm standing when it comes.
Even if Tim is telling everyone who asks that it doesn't matter where I stand because most people will die. In other words, if the penny hasn't dropped f**k society or I'm here for me to take the advantages and opportunities that I can to ensure my success within whatever economy there is, not to follow Tims "advice" to keep me in his status quo. If I was in a country where that meant begging for a while to rise above, so be it, the dire consequences to the economy that he predicts won't happen, no more than you'll be running walmart because that pays more than whatever you do now.
If the economy goes bad, I'd hope to engineer it so that it didn't affect me. Since the future is difficult to predict that's not guaranteed, but no debt and / or lots of money puts you in a better position usually - something our beggar is probably in compared with your average "wealthy" person. You are best to do what Tim says though, of course. I guarantee that there are people in that country that have no need to beg or farm even if they once did.
This is where listening to the "Tims" of this world makes no sense, because he can only tell you one thing - and that is, you are doomed to fail statistically because so few can succeed. The only real difference is the degree of failure - what "failure" actually is. As you note our economies can even trick you into believing you're pretty wealthy, maybe even comfortable, when you have huge debts [not that our economies don't have people who can't get debts that appear worse off]
Similary, there are lots of things that are of no real value [from someone's pov], however you probably consider them to have value in this conversation simply because people will pay for them I guess. Criminals are not just people that take things. They grow and manufacture drugs and many other goods, for example.
There are elements of the economy that rely on spending money as well as earning it. That spending part is just as important and the beggar is presumably going to do that with your money. At which point my earlier points about how you spend your money become valid - especially if, as my hypothetical letter that started this exchange, suggested, the beggar spends it better than you [after all she's poncing about spending her money in a place that's not helping our economy :) ]
And I don't see how going into debt is relevant
Because you keep talking about people and countries that are "wealthy" whereas I see lots of people and countries in debt....and...
]
And I further fail to see what outsourcing(a scary word for free trade) has to do with any of this.
....because [continuing from the last point] it was an example of breaking the illusion of "wealth" which is really just "debt" - an example that happens today. There are others that could happen which would hit harder and more people. The current pensions issue for example. If Tim said 20 years ago "get a pension" would you? Wouldn't making a heap of money so you didn't need one be better? "But everyone can't do that"...what happens when you paid in all that money and don't get one after all? As I said, you can't predict the future, not even Tim...although he probably hopes his advice helps engineer his predictions to be true.
Also, you seemed to believe that begging is bad because it will prevent other economies progressing. Presumably so the people there are closer to us in their expectations of lifestyle, jobs and so on i.e you appear to have the moral view that it is good if that happens and thus Tim's advice to not feed the beggars, if true, is also morally the right thing to do?
Whereas not only am I not agreeing with Tim's analysis from the pov of an individual, as I've described, I also don't necessarily see it as particularly good for me if what he says about their economy does happen.