Piano Forum
Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: sinspawnammes on July 03, 2006, 05:42:26 PM
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I personally find it harder than Chopin Scherzos. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it takes insane technique to even play it at speed, and that section with the C#-A-F#-B-F# melody just can't be played at speed without recording it and speeding up the tape.
I desperately need some help with the technique in this piece. I have specific questions that I will ask, but the most important is, is there some kind of trick to playing this at the required tempo? Just moving the hands in the main theme (after the glissando) is already difficult.
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This piece takes time and practise? may i ask what sort of level you are.
First of all, when i did it i had trouble with the grace notes. With the pairings of notes, i played them as demisemiquavers, then gradually leant the notes on to each other.
You need to play the sections about a quater of the speed!, Then a half and then 3/4 and then at full speed. This should help. i played this piece at a concert last year and it went down a storm!
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I learnt it with the metronome, I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I also did lots and lots of dotted rhythms. Very very light touch is needed, practice it slowly, and perfectly. It's the clarity that makes the speed, make sure every single note is heard, and it will sound faster.
It goes down great in concerts, people love it. I also did it for all my conservatoire auditions, and it went down well there. Great piece. Just give it time, once you get it it sticks. I did it recently for an exam and only needed about 1 hour to get it going properly, and that was after a 5 month rest.
I find Chopin Scherzo's harder haha. When I did Gnomenreigen I was also preparing the 3rd scherzo, and I found the Scherzo harder. Must just be a hand thing, I have a friend who can play a lot of virtuosic stuff, and yet gnomenriegen is really really troublesome to him. Have you got big hands? My friend has giant hands, and he blames them.
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I heard Claudio Arrau could play this piece at age seven.
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I heard Claudio Arrau could play this piece at age seven.
yes, but slowly
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yes, but slowly
You need to listen to some late Brahms Intermezzi... Slow, yet profound. You don't have to be speed demon all the time.
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You need to listen to some late Brahms Intermezzi... Slow, yet profound. You don't have to be speed demon all the time.
i love the brahms intermezzi and late works
i hate arrau slowing down works that are supposed to be blistering
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i love the brahms intermezzi and late works
i hate arrau slowing down works that are supposed to be blistering
I agree. I hate his Mazeppa recording... utter blecch.
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i love the brahms intermezzi and late works
i hate arrau slowing down works that are supposed to be blistering
I fully disagree in what respect to Arrau. In Arrau's Liszt and in the most of his repertoire when he slows down, he played in such a particular way that makes you forget the tempo he uses much more other resources with the same or better virtuosity effects. His Philips recording of Gnomeringen is a reference.
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To my ears this piece only sounds worthwhile when played at Arrau's tempo. You lose alot of the dark, eerie mood when playing too fast.
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To my ears this piece only sounds worthwhile when played at Arrau's tempo. You lose alot of the dark, eerie mood when playing too fast.
weak
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wrong
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mazz deb
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You need to listen to some late Brahms Intermezzi... Slow, yet profound. You don't have to be speed demon all the time.
You're right.
Just just need to not be slow when it counts.
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I agree. I hate his Mazeppa recording... utter blecch.
I think it is a great recording. My favourite for sure. Who do you like in Mazeppa?
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Does Cortot have a practicing edition for this piece?
Walter Ramsey
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I think it is a great recording. My favourite for sure. Who do you like in Mazeppa?
teh subwoofah concurs 100%.
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i love the brahms intermezzi and late works
i hate arrau slowing down works that are supposed to be blistering
Having been a student of one of Liszt's last students, I'd assume Arrau would be a reference in Liszt playing. I have Arrau playing Liszt's etudes and I like all of them.
(but I don't know other interpretations, so that doesn't really count)
Alex
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You should hear Murray Perahia's recording of this. It is INCREDIBLY fast.
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You need to listen to some late Brahms Intermezzi... Slow, yet profound. You don't have to be speed demon all the time.
But can you say the same thing for the Beethoven Sonatas which he slaughters? If anything, Beethoven wanted his pieces to be played on the speedier side. Sometimes it shouldn't be about creating something new, it should be about recreating the composer's genius and what they would have wanted the piece to sound like. I will give you Brahms, but he has no excuse for his awful Beethoven and if you want to argue that with me, you will lose :P. Not all of them are bad, but 70% are.
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But can you say the same thing for the Beethoven Sonatas which he slaughters? If anything, Beethoven wanted his pieces to be played on the speedier side. Sometimes it shouldn't be about creating something new, it should be about recreating the composer's genius and what they would have wanted the piece to sound like. I will give you Brahms, but he has no excuse for his awful Beethoven and if you want to argue that with me, you will lose :P. Not all of them are bad, but 70% are.
I am up for losing an argument. Arrau's Beethoven, from I have heard, is great, although in the words of Joseph Horowitz, a bit "claustrophobically" recorded - but that is not Arrau's fault. Have you ever seen the classic video of him in a live performance of Beethoven op.111? There are other recordings that I like of that, but he gets a special kind of sound that is so unique to him, and works in the piece beautifully. Everyone has different tastes for these sonatas, for instance I can't bear Barenboim, but I can't hear what exactly Arrau "slaughters." Which 70% are you talking about?
Walter Ramsey
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You make many good points. 70% was a bit extreme on my end... I really only meant about half that. In any case, some of which I consider to be unacceptably paced are the second mvt. of No. 13, where it is specifically marked allegro molto e vivace, but he achieves, at best, moderato. The rondo allegretto of No. 11, the whole of Waldstein, the last movement of the Tempest which is a good example of being 'almost' there, but in the end just feels to drag, and the last mvt. of Pathetique which seems not to be a tempo issue, but an issue of overall energy. Those are just some examples among others. I have his whole collection, and that being said, I take back some of my first comments especially the part about him 'slaughtering' the sonatas. There are many which I think are exceptionally well-done (Hammerklavier, Pathetique first and second mvts., Appassionata), but as a whole, and with other pieces I've heard, for my personal taste it seems as though he is overcompensating "artsy-ness" without realizing that he's sacrificing much more, even if he does achieve a unique sound.
In addition, I can't speak from seeing him live, so I guess I must further hold my tongue. That is all.