Piano Forum
Piano Board => Performance => Topic started by: stevie on July 18, 2006, 08:57:28 PM
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best chopin etude performance ever filmed.
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I like the way he plays, but he looks like a fool on crack.
Winter Wind is WAY TOO FAST!! It sounds unclean.
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this guy is one of my favourite pianists at the moment, however, i felt that only his 10.2 matched speed with musical effects and the others were just very fast performances but no more than this.
i still dont know why he isnt more famous. i have listened to almost all recs on his website and he is just fantastic.
Gruff
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Winter Wind is WAY TOO FAST!! It sounds unclean.
sounds unclean? this is your ears fault
and too fast? this is technically below chopin's intended speed, by a couple seconds.
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by comparison - here is meiting suns perf-
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to the person who voted no, stand up and be counted, and provide reasons.
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I wished I could hear this guy lively. I have watched some video of him recently. it seems like he play everything fast and he's always excited. But dose fast tempo always mean right excitement? I have heard Yundi Li playing chopin's Chopin Grande Polonaise Brillante Op. 22 in a live recital 6 years ago right after he won the competition. It was much slower than Wunder's performance but the excitement Li made was indescribable, the best performance of that piece I have seen. I don't know if Wunder played it better. I couldn't get the same feeling very the video, can not really judge.
His etude no.2 was really amazzing. I agree with that his winter wind was a little unclean, of cz I can not play better. technically Wen-Yu Shen's playing of it was the best of that competition. He has richer sound and has no wrong notes, not even one!!! once again, just technically comparing. from the video we can see that Wunder plays with a little flat fingers, and Wen-Yu Shen dose it with more curve shape. Any opinion about that?
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Very good indeed, but I still think that Richters performance is the best out there.
&search=winter%20wind
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Did he ever *not* know how to play the piano? Something tells me he's been great pretty much since the first time he sat down.
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Very good indeed, but I still think that Richters performance is the best out there.
&search=winter%20wind
u r an embarrassment to nature
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Drools.... My God... I am VERY IMPRESSED. Not only wiht the rechnique but with the way he know what music is.
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.............. He is gonna be something to talk about in a few years.. He is orgasmic.
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to the person who voted no, stand up and be counted, and provide reasons.
There were two options to vote, so I took NO :)
It's too fast and too straightforward - I really don't like it, sorry :-[
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I haven't seen this video, but I've got a performance of Chopin's first ballade at home - and it's amazing. Second favourite after (forgot the name) :D
He looks quite funny while playing... ;)
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his 10/2 is the best i have heard so far.
Gruff
p.s has anyone got wunder's ballade no.1? rec or vid would do.
Gruff
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@gruffalo: get it here:
https://rapidshare.de/files/26302891/Wunder_-_Chopin_Ballade_g_minor.asf
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by comparison - here is meiting suns perf-
Brilliant 8)
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by comparison - here is meiting suns perf-
that's worlds better, thanks a lot for the reference!
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Wow.
He doesn't know what difficult is. The concept does not exist for him.
Probably one of the most extraordinary techniques in the history of keyboard instruments.
Hofmann, Michelangeli, Horowitz, Godowsky, Friedman, Gilels, Richter, Gavrilov, Barere, they have nothing on this kid in the chops department.
I listened to the g minor Ballade on his website a few months ago, found it technically impeccable but superficial. I will go back there and listen again.
Wow.
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There were two options to vote, so I took NO :)
It's too fast and too straightforward - I really don't like it, sorry :-[
i understand, but are you aware that these are chopin's required tempos, and that any slower would be a disservice to the composer and music?
he is in the process of finding his voice, finding more musical nuances and substance to his interpretations.
but, i say ; if in doubt about what to say - just say it faster than anyone else :-*
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It isn't the interpretation of these works I would want to listen to very often but he is certainly a wonderful pianist. These pieces have been played by so many people for so long that I tend to welcome any new versions of them.
I never was a very critical person and I'm probably getting even more broadminded as I get older but there's no way I could take the "no" option to such accomplished playing.
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he is in the process of finding his voice, finding more musical nuances and substance to his interpretations.
I sure hope so. If he does, he will be one of the greatest pianists ever.
but, i say ; if in doubt about what to say - just say it faster than anyone else :-*
I don't think he intentionally plays fast, it's just part of his playing. It's just what he does.
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I like his playing, off course. I could just dream of playing like him. But if we talk on professional level, comparing with other professional pianists. I prefer others. Thats why I voted 'No'.
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he sure is a 'wunder'
he looks like he is on crack.
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he's..fantastic...the best 10.2 I've ever heard.
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by comparison, this is Wen-Yu Shen's performance of winter wind, technically better
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Well,...Another mark to pass….how many kids do we have in this world who are almighty on the keyboard ?. Now much more that in the old times and tomorrow more than now. There is absolutely nothing impossible for them in terms of technique and speed. Piano has become a race in which one becomes admired if one plays faster than another kid who played also fast … all that thanks to Horowits. Sorry but personally after the generation of Argerich, and Zimerman, Freire, and so on we will not see or hear real music but this.
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i understand, but are you aware that these are chopin's required tempos, and that any slower would be a disservice to the composer and music?
Chopin's required tempos? - Surely not.
I know the metronome markings of the etudes (and of other works of Chopin and Schumann), and if I would believe, these are the required tempi of these works, I would say, Chopin and Schumann are the most unsensitive composers of their century. And that's surely not true.
Okay, you like this extreme fast playing, I don't like it, what's the problem.
But please don't tell me, a metronome marking is a required tempo.
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by comparison, this is Wen-Yu Shen's performance of winter wind, technically better
MUCH better. I saw this guy live when performing Rach 3 in the Queen Elisabeth Competition in Belgium. This guy was only 16 or 17 then! He became 2nd before Severin Von Eckardstein (he played Prokofiev 2nd).
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by comparison, this is Wen-Yu Shen's performance of winter wind, technically better
I really like his left hand...lol
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There is absolutely nothing impossible for them in terms of technique and speed. Piano has become a race in which one becomes admired if one plays faster than another kid who played also fast … all that thanks to Horowits. Sorry but personally after the generation of Argerich, and Zimerman, Freire, and so on we will not see or hear real music but this.
I agree to some degree actually.
The youngest truly great and musical pianist I know of is Ivo Pogorelich and he is born 1958
The most gifted of the younger pianists is propably Volodos
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There is absolutely nothing impossible for them in terms of technique and speed.
no, this is whats exciting about the virtuoso world, there is such a thing as impossible, but this is changing all the time with new talents.
Chopin's required tempos? - Surely not.
I know the metronome markings of the etudes (and of other works of Chopin and Schumann), and if I would believe, these are the required tempi of these works, I would say, Chopin and Schumann are the most unsensitive composers of their century. And that's surely not true.
Okay, you like this extreme fast playing, I don't like it, what's the problem.
But please don't tell me, a metronome marking is a required tempo.
yes, tis what chopin intended, at this speed its much more exciting and visceral, tis why chopin wrote that metronome mark.
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Speaking about the Winterwind.
Anyone have a video of Libetta playing Godowsky´s study of the Winterwind?
There is a video with Hamelin playing it on youtube.
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MUCH better. I saw this guy live when performing Rach 3 in the Queen Elisabeth Competition in Belgium. This guy was only 16 or 17 then! He became 2nd before Severin Von Eckardstein (he played Prokofiev 2nd).
Did u really see it? I only have his recording of Rach live from that competition. It's so hard to believe that he was only 16. Anyone want the recording?
I saw him live 3 month ago in a recital. He played such things like Don Juan, Gaspard, chopin ballade and beethoven. Although some of his playing was a little boring, it was a quite amazzing recital.he didn't even miss one note......Don juan he played was the best I have ever seen. I have already uploaded it
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Did u really see it? I only have his recording of Rach live from that competition. It's so hard to believe that he was only 16. Anyone want the recording?
I saw him live 3 month ago in a recital. He played such things like Don Juan, Gaspard, chopin ballade and beethoven. Although some of his playing was a little boring, it was a quite amazzing recital.he didn't even miss one note......Don juan he played was the best I have ever seen. I have already uploaded it
Yes I saw it. It was unbelievble. Also because that same evening the jury would tell who had won the competition. A very weird athmosphere. And I have that recording also from the competition. I have the cdbox from that competition with almost all the laureats. When-Yu Shen is also playing Stravinsky's Petroushka on that disc.
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Yes I saw it. It was unbelievble. Also because that same evening the jury would tell who had won the competition. A very weird athmosphere. And I have that recording also from the competition. I have the cdbox from that competition with almost all the laureats. When-Yu Shen is also playing Stravinsky's Petroushka on that disc.
Is there any way you can upload or send the stravinsky to me? I can't find it cz that cd is not released in US. I would like to exchange something with u if there is any u want.
Thanks
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I would very like it do to this, but unfortunely -and very stupid- the 'cd-thing' from my computer is broken. So I don't know how to put it on my computer. I think they have only this disc in Belgium (I live in Belgium). May be on Amazon.com or some Belgian discsite you could find it.
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Well,...Another mark to pass….how many kids do we have in this world who are almighty on the keyboard ?. Now much more that in the old times and tomorrow more than now. There is absolutely nothing impossible for them in terms of technique and speed. Piano has become a race in which one becomes admired if one plays faster than another kid who played also fast … all that thanks to Horowits. Sorry but personally after the generation of Argerich, and Zimerman, Freire, and so on we will not see or hear real music but this.
I must take issue with this. "Technique" (and I and loath to use the word) has always been admired, from Clementi, to (of course) Liszt, Dreyschock, et al. In the time of the latter two, as many of you know, honour at the keyboard seemed to be won not by playing faster, but by be-octaving certain Chopin Etudes - take from this what you will.
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I vote yes, although I do think his performances are very straightforward in a musical sense. His 10-2 is pretty amazing in speed and fluidity (for that alone, I vote yes :)), but he really doesn't sound like he's doing anything besides practicing a scale.
His winterwind I enjoyed more, although it's still a very middle-of-the-road performance.
But here I am sitting at my computer criticizing something I will probably never achieve. I love the internet. :P
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best chopin etude performance ever filmed.
The Richter version (video above)....that is play the piano...that is music!, not the speed race you propose
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I must take issue with this. "Technique" (and I and loath to use the word) has always been admired, from Clementi, to (of course) Liszt, Dreyschock, et al. In the time of the latter two, as many of you know, honour at the keyboard seemed to be won not by playing faster, but by be-octaving certain Chopin Etudes - take from this what you will.
Technique admired... Yes, but never at expense of musicianship.....until our times.
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The Richter version (video above)....that is play the piano...that is music!, not the speed race you propose
even though i myself could care less, but do u not notice that wunder actually injects MORE m*sical expression in his record breaking preformance than (albeit a 74 yr old) RICHTER does at half his tempo?
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even though i myself could care less, but do u not notice that wunder actually injects MORE m*sical expression in his record breaking preformance than (albeit a 74 yr old) RICHTER does at half his tempo?
I do believe that Richter's version is full of details in phrasing, breathings, a lot of elements which conrform the whole studio and involve the audience inside his performance. In contrast in Wunder's version one cannot feel nothing but dinamic and an impressionant technique. All those details were the difference of pianists of the ancient school...What is better? that is in fact a matter of taste, but none of those new brilliant and young virtuosi, makes me feel a piece of music as Argerich, Richter,..., you know the old ones, did.
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Technique admired... Yes, but never at expense of musicianship.....until our times.
I refer again to the quoted example of Liszt and Dreyschock.
Can you seriously sustain a claim that adding octaves to Chopin's Op.10 no.12 and Op.25 no.2 is not "at expense of musicianship"?
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Besides the speed, what is so exceptionally great about these performances?
Do his interpretations shed any light on these pieces?
Please explain.
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Besides the speed, what is so exceptionally great about these performances?
Do his interpretations shed any light on these pieces?
Please explain.
of course, people with unique technique produce unique musical results.
the 10/2 is superbly articulated, and quite a dynamic interpretation.
not saying its the best ever, because i prefer some others in terms of voicing, and cziffra's in terms of excitement and rhythm.
the 25/11 on the other hand is simply the most exciting interpretation ive heard.
sokolov technically has a more interesting interpretation, but is slower than wunder, which renders them equal overall, imo.
wunder's tempo is the MINIMUM i would consider for this piece.
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It sounds and looks like he's missing notes in his 10/2.
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deaf AND blind?
damn
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deaf AND blind?
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Or perhaps you should learn to listen more carefully. The notes in the thumb and index finger of the right hand are not consistent.
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I greatly respect Wunder. I always enjoy his performances and I find his interpretations interesting.
Also, I respect him cause he started playing the Piano seriously when he was 14 years old and still he already reached a very high level. Wunder is born in 1985, so I guess he is about 21 years old right now.... Still plenty of time to reach an even higher level.
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is he still doing competitions? or has he got some sort of record deal yet?
Gruff
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingolf_Wunder
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
A Pianist of the next generation.
is he still doing competitions? or has he got some sort of record deal yet?
Gruff
https://shop.orf.at/oe1/shop.tmpl?art=2991
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(https://www.ingolfwunder.at/images/rec.gif)
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(https://www.ingolfwunder.at/images/rec.gif)
How about playing all the notes then instead of going for a world speed record.
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deaf AND blind?
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No he's right, and Wunder's face reacts when it happens, but it is almost nothing anyway, just one small scratch in the RH middle of Op.10 no.2, and a Db octave where it's supposed to be an Eb octave in the left hand in Op.10 no.2 (his face reacts here too)...
Stevie, I really don't agree that this is the minimum speed for the Winter Wind. Don't you think that the spirit of the left hand is obliterated at that speed? The LH melody almost sounds like a Sousa march now. It would be completely comical sounding, except that the technique he shows is simply incredible. Still, it's not prestissimo, or even presto con fuoco, it's marked allegro con brio, and Chopin had it right I think. It would be more admirable, if less physically astounding, if he could show even more understanding of the spirit of the piece AND play cleanly and brilliantly.
I think the Winter Wind is simply more beautiful when it's played a little more slowly, but it's true that his technique really is amazing.
I do have one question though. On Mr. Wunder's personal website, there is a quote on the homepage:
"so that it seems to lie before him like an immense landscape, revealed to the eye at a single glance" - S.Richter
I find this quite amazing, since Ingolf Wunder would have been 12 years old when Richter died...
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Berman plays 10/2 faster, therefore Wunder's is irrelevant.
The Winterwind sounds like crap.
I hate Wunder's playing.
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Funny thing about Wunder is that he looks like someone who can´t play.
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Also, I respect him cause he started playing the Piano seriously when he was 14 years old and still he already reached a very high level. Wunder is born in 1985, so I guess he is about 21 years old right now.... Still plenty of time to reach an even higher level.
Volodos didn´t really start to play until he was 16.
He is supposed one hell of a quick-learner to. Maybe the greatest since Saint-Saines.
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- DELETED -
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Wunder? Some kind of amazing prodigy?
Harold Bauer.
Sorry, thank you... good morning!
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Wunder? Some kind of amazing prodigy?
Harold Bauer.
Sorry, thank you... good morning!
(https://www.lukemastin.com/diary/photos_venezuela/federal_sloth.jpg)
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Funny thing about Wunder is that he looks like someone who can´t play.
What does someone who can play look like :-\?
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"What does someone who can play look like "
Like Marc-Andre Hamelin perhaps
You can almost tell that he is a good sightreader and a serious person when you see him.
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Maybe the greatest since Saint-Saines.
Who's that?
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Berman plays 10/2 faster, therefore Wunder's is irrelevant.
The Winterwind sounds like crap.
I hate Wunder's playing.
Berman's 10/2 is a studio recording and is thus irrelevant. Wunder also play the winterwind much faster than Berman, therefore Berman is once agan irrelevant.
i'd have really liked to say Berman's 10/2 sound like crap, but i just don't like subjectivity.
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Volodos didn´t really start to play until he was 16.
He is supposed one hell of a quick-learner to. Maybe the greatest since Saint-Saines.
I wouldn't believe that for a second.
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He is supposed one hell of a quick-learner to. Maybe the greatest since Saint-Saines.
his recital programs give absolutely zero indication of this. Instead they indicate a performable repertoire literally 1/50th of for example, Hamelin's
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of course, people with unique technique produce unique musical results.
If you were right a robot with a better technique than Wunder's would have better musical results. I think Technique IS NOT associated or correlated with Musicality
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his recital programs give absolutely zero indication of this. Instead they indicate a performable repertoire literally 1/50th of for example, Hamelin's
True.
Some people say that the reason for this is that Volodos the laziest virtuoso out there.
He rarely spends more then an hour a week at the piano according to some sources.
It doesn´t have to be true though.
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I reeeeaally liked the 10/2. It's probobly my favorite recording ever.
Winterwind I can't say as much, but his interpretation was a little too "non-image," and lacked the slightly slower passion of other interps. that I've heard. I like the peice played fast, but, not ZOOOM ZOOOOM RUNNAWWWAAAYY GAAHAHHH *crash*
I still enjoyed it though.
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Berman's 10/2 is a studio recording and is thus irrelevant. Wunder also play the winterwind much faster than Berman, therefore Berman is once agan irrelevant.
i'd have really liked to say Berman's 10/2 sound like crap, but i just don't like subjectivity.
My comment was in keeping with the sdc precept 'zpeed definez the winnah'...in which case Berman's timing renders Wunder's 10/2 irrelevant. Studio recording? Why do you think this matters at all? Some magical force that makes pianists play slower live?
If you wanted to get into semantics: from the sound of it, Berman is playing the 10/2 on a lighter-action piano. Still, Berman's tone in general is consistently better than Wunder's thin, unsatisfactory, brittle sound.
----anyway, it's really sad that there are so many threads dedicated to pseudo-virtuosic, averagely-musical pianists like Wunder. Berman is not a great musician (at ALL), but his recordings at least have entertainment value that extend beyond the timing.
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. Berman is not a great musician (at ALL), but his recordings at least have entertainment value that extend beyond the timing.
I hae always thought that he was one of your favourite pianist?
His Janaceck Sonata is great.
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I really enjoy some of the insane virtuosity in his recordings like in the '59 Transcendentals and the Feinberg Tchaikovsky Transcription.
And yeah, the Janacek is really an exception. Beautiful playing there. :)
But in general, I do not think he is a deep musician.
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Berman was rumoured to be the worst sightreader of all the classical world class virtuosos.
That includes Brendel and Hofmann.
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Berman was rumoured to be the worst sightreader of all the classical world class virtuosos.
That includes Brendel and Hofmann.
I really doubt Hofmann was that bad. I'd imagine that he was just a 'poor' sight-reader relative to what one would expect from a person of his ability.